The "chance to upgrade" mechanic is ridiculous and must be changed

[Blackdragon]

If there is one thing I am absolutely, 100% sure needs change in this game, it's the "chance to upgrade" mechanic. Right now, to even upgrade a weapon once, it's a 50/50 gamble.
Twice, it's 25/75 (25% chance) to succeed.
Thrice, 12,5/87,5 (12,5% chance).
Four times upgrade is only 8% chance to succeed. So on 92% of the times, the upgrade will fail.
CONSUMING RESOURCES EVERY TIME YOU TRY.

For the sake of an experiment, I froze the gold and sharpening stone values, and upgraded a bunch of weapons. At some point, I was clicking the upgrade button for over a dozen times, failing every time, to upgrade a weapon to +4.

This mechanic WILL NOT WORK. Very few people will have enough perseverance to even swallow a 50% chance of loss on the first upgrade, especially considering how scarce resources are in the first half of the game. And even endgame top level characters with tens of thousands of gold will not be able to afford gambling 3-5 thousand gold per pop on a 8-12% chance to upgrade a weapon to +3 or +4. Not to mention spending sharpening stones with every try.

By the way, using more sharpening stones is supposed to increase chance of success, but right now it adds something like 1% or even less. So even with 10 stones to burn on a single try, you'll get less than a 10% extra chance.

So most people will either save-scum, or outright cheat. And they will be in the right, because this kind of scummy lootbox mechanic has no place in a decent game.

The suggestion would be to remove the chance to upgrade entirely. Make upgrades always work. Make each subsequent upgrade cost more sharpening stones instead. The gold cost is already high enough, especially considering players will likely upgrade several weapons as they find better ones in the world.

[Bandy]

It's early access. If you don't like 50/50 odds (BTW I agree...), just save before attempt, reload if you don't like the outcome. Simple.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Bandy:

It's early access.

Which is exactly why I made this post. So that developers are aware of the problem and implement changes before release.

Originally posted by Bandy:

If you don't like 50/50 odds (BTW I agree...), just save before attempt, reload if you don't like the outcome. Simple.

First, thank you for proving my point - that the mechanic doesn't work and will cause even good-faith players to either save-scum or cheat.

Second, 50/50 chance is only for the first upgrade (to +1). Second upgrade (+2) is 25% chance, third upgrade (+3) 12,5% chance, and so on. So already by the third upgrade you are looking at an almost 90% chance of failure, and my experiments have shown that this 90% failure chance can in practice translate to over a dozen failed attempts, every attempt consuming sharpening stones and thousands of gold.

This mechanic is non-workable and has no place in any game, much less a single-player CRPG.

[SzargontheCultured]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Bandy:

It's early access.

Which is exactly why I made this post. So that developers are aware of the problem and implement changes before release.

Originally posted by Bandy:

If you don't like 50/50 odds (BTW I agree...), just save before attempt, reload if you don't like the outcome. Simple.

First, thank you for proving my point - that the mechanic doesn't work and will cause even good-faith players to either save-scum or cheat.

Second, 50/50 chance is only for the first upgrade (to +1). Second upgrade (+2) is 25% chance, third upgrade (+3) 12,5% chance, and so on. So already by the third upgrade you are looking at an almost 90% chance of failure, and my experiments have shown that this 90% failure chance can in practice translate to over a dozen failed attempts, every attempt consuming sharpening stones and thousands of gold.

This mechanic is non-workable and has no place in any game, much less a single-player CRPG.

yeah i failed a whopping 27 times trying to get the lifestealer greatsword to +2, the rng is insane and wants me dead lol.

[Bandy]

Originally posted by SzargontheCultured:

yeah i failed a whopping 27 times trying to get the lifestealer greatsword to +2, the rng is insane and wants me dead lol.

When this happens and get the same result just too often, to the point of it being absurd, then you need to break the chain and restart the game to get a new 'seed', read below...

I keep posting over and over in game forums about the random number generator and get flamed by idealistic white knights.

Have a look at link, and let's have a mature discussion. It's an article from someone who <should> know more about the limitations of computers than gamers...

Can a computer generate a truly random number?
It depends what you mean by random…
https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/can-a-computer-generate-a-truly-random-number/
[Professor of Computer Science and Engineering at MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory]

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Bandy:

Originally posted by SzargontheCultured:

yeah i failed a whopping 27 times trying to get the lifestealer greatsword to +2, the rng is insane and wants me dead lol.

When this happens and get the same result just too often, to the point of it being absurd, then you need to break the chain and restart the game to get a new 'seed', read below...

I keep posting over and over in game forums about the random number generator and get flamed by idealistic white knights.

Have a look at link, and let's have a mature discussion. It's an article from someone who <should> know more about the limitations of computers than gamers...

Can a computer generate a truly random number?
It depends what you mean by random…
https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/can-a-computer-generate-a-truly-random-number/
[Professor of Computer Science and Engineering at MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory]

When you need some obscure technological knowledge to even make the random chance work properly, on top of the random chance already being punishingly small for the player, you know you've got an unworkable mechanic on your hands.

As I said, the entire concept is dead in the water. Most players won't tolerate even a properly working 50/50 chance of upgrade, because losing over a 1000 gold for zero gain at the beginning of the game will not be acceptable to them. Much less a 90%+ chance of failure later on if you want to upgrade above +2, when every try costs like 5,000 gold, and you can easily lose all resources you've earned after playing for dozens of hours, without getting anything in return.

This system is ridiculous and should not survive to release. If it does, I am certain almost nobody will be using it "as intended", vast majority will either save-scum or outright cheat to get the upgrades, and they will be in the right because a system that disrespects the player's investment of time and effort to gather resources, only to lose them again and again in a ludicrously rigged game of chance, itself does not deserve to be respected.

[Raubritter]

Agreed. Crafting should be stat-based, not luck-based.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Raubritter:

Agreed. Crafting should be stat-based, not luck-based.

Exactly.

[Bandy]

I agree, there is no reason to create an upgrade mechanic that might fail 50% of the time.

I will be scum saving...

[Mastro2k]

I was wondering why this is in a single player game. It gives MMO vibes like Black Desert. Just make the cost higher and the chance 100%.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Bandy:

I agree, there is no reason to create an upgrade mechanic that might fail 50% of the time.

I will be scum saving...

I've been upgrading Galahad's mace just now.

It took me five tries to upgrade it to +1, on an ostensibly 50/50 chance.

Every try cost 1250 gold and 1 sharpening stone.

So the first upgrade cost 6250 gold and 5 stones. More than a +5 upgrade costs on its face (but that one has less than 10% chance to succeed, so might actually cost over a hundred thousand gold).

It just doesn't make any sense. Make the upgrades fixed price in gold and stones, and be done with it. Otherwise everyone will save-scum/cheat.

[Desfen]

I think that you are not supposed to keep one weapon for the whole game. You can stick to it a bit longer, but it will cost you, and the longer you stick the costlier it will get.

[Blast Hardcheese]

Originally posted by Desfen:

I think that you are not supposed to keep one weapon for the whole game. You can stick to it a bit longer, but it will cost you, and the longer you stick the costlier it will get.

See, I can approve of that concept, but if that is what they were going for with this system, it is flawed. Let the cost be from a hard to obtain item to level it up, or a large amount of resources from a hard enemy. Don't waste my time with RNG unless my stat is outright too low to make the check. Then give me consequences for not being proficient enough.

Have to agree with Blackdragon, I'm the type of guy who will just save scum that roll over and over till I get the result I need. I have too many games to play and I don't need my time wasted by my character failing a dice roll because it's "immersive". Still really like the direction the game is going in, but this mechanic is flawed.

[frakthefriendly]

What Blackdragon is correctly saying is that is just needs a little balancing. If it is a tool that people just won't use, or a tool you constantly cheat to use, it is not correctly balanced.

[Bandy]

Originally posted by frakthefriendly:

What Blackdragon is correctly saying is that is just needs a little balancing. If it is a tool that people just won't use, or a tool you constantly cheat to use, it is not correctly balanced.

No, just no. Having ANY random chance of failure associated with player expending costly\rare upgrade resources is simply bad game design.

If they want players to feel "the pinch" then do so in other ways via economy\trade. But not in a mechanic that the player is investing so much in, and that is literally the end goal of one of the game loops, to improve your gear and feel that dopamine rush (look it up).

Having that end goal be a fart in your face instead? No, I will scumsave and yes, feel rotten doing it, but devs made it this way and gave players no choice.

[kpx_ar]

This mechanic has already been reworked internally (not on the public build). Not sharing the exact ins and outs right now, but rest assured it will be way better in the future ;))