Should Runick Fountain be unlimited now?

[Merilirem]

Its been awhile. You think 2 fountains would be too much?

[Merilirem]

Originalmente postado por Raven:

Originalmente postado por Merilirem:

I don't tie it to floodgates because its not the issue in that scenario. The floodgates are the ones causing issues. They do too much no matter how you get to them.

And that's where I go back to my old point that if konami would just use choice restrictions instead of banlists, we'd have far fewer cards on the banlist. Runick in itself isn't bad or a horrible archetype, but if people are given the chance, mixing it with stun becomes people's main priority. If runick wasn't tied into being used with so much stun, it wouldn't be a problem, but people WILL use it with stun; so you can't ignore that by looking at fountain in a vacuum.

I don't, I simply think floodgates suck so much they shouldn't exist. Especially those generic ones anyone can play. Whether or not fountain can play them therefore doesn't affect my take because any deck can play floodgates and it always sucks. Running into some floodgate turbo stun deck is always a bad time. Even in best of 3. As is playing a Tear mirror and seeing one.

There is no point judging it for the sins of floodgates when I can easily commit those same sins with other legal cards. I made a chaos deck myself to see if I could that is absolutely disgusting and it doesn't use fountain at all. Its just a perfectly fair and fun deck that has ways to reliably floodgate opponents through interaction.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originalmente postado por Raven:

Originalmente postado por Merilirem:

I don't tie it to floodgates because its not the issue in that scenario. The floodgates are the ones causing issues. They do too much no matter how you get to them.

And that's where I go back to my old point that if konami would just use choice restrictions instead of banlists, we'd have far fewer cards on the banlist. Runick in itself isn't bad or a horrible archetype, but if people are given the chance, mixing it with stun becomes people's main priority. If runick wasn't tied into being used with so much stun, it wouldn't be a problem, but people WILL use it with stun; so you can't ignore that by looking at fountain in a vacuum.

I will agree with you with the caveat that it only applies to Master Duel and other automated sims. Choice restrictions make a bit too annoying to be sure that your opponent is cheating in paper, but that isn't an issue in the specific conversation we're actually having.

[Astrallight]

Originalmente postado por Merilirem:

Originalmente postado por Astrallight:

No we dont want Runick to become even stronger in a BO1.

Is it strong now though? Like really?

I have been on the recieving end against stuff like Runick/Spright and it sucks to play against it. Turn 3 and 95% of my deck was already banished. What is the fun in that ? And then you have to deal with a full negate board aswell. No Runick can stay where it is.

[TormentedSalad]

Originalmente postado por Raven:

Originalmente postado por Merilirem:

I don't tie it to floodgates because its not the issue in that scenario. The floodgates are the ones causing issues. They do too much no matter how you get to them.

And that's where I go back to my old point that if konami would just use choice restrictions instead of banlists, we'd have far fewer cards on the banlist. Runick in itself isn't bad or a horrible archetype, but if people are given the chance, mixing it with stun becomes people's main priority. If runick wasn't tied into being used with so much stun, it wouldn't be a problem, but people WILL use it with stun; so you can't ignore that by looking at fountain in a vacuum.

The solution here is just to ban the floodgates genuinely nobody wants them not you not me anyone who does want them are trying to play less yugioh while playing yugioh.

Originalmente postado por Astrallight:

Originalmente postado por Merilirem:

Is it strong now though? Like really?

I have been on the recieving end against stuff like Runick/Spright and it sucks to play against it. Turn 3 and 95% of my deck was already banished. What is the fun in that ? And then you have to deal with a full negate board aswell. No Runick can stay where it is.

I don't believe this happened especially against Spright.

[Astrallight]

I dont really need to spend time trying to persuade you to think it happend or not. He had perfect hand and managed to mill 95% of my deck in 3 turns. It sucks to play against it. Mostly when all your counters to it is already gone cause he gets a perfect mil on you.

With Fountain at 1 you atleast have some counters to it. With 3 you dont. And if fountain should come back at 3 then every other Runick card should be limited to 1 for balanced purposes.

In the end you have to draw a line for how much draw power you want Runick to have and how much spell spam they are allowed to have in a BO1. You dont want them to have both.

[Soji]

Probably wouldn't effect the metagame in a drastically worse way but I personally hope those cards never get unlimited. When Runick first got introduced into this game it was the only real time I had absolutely no fun with Master Duel. Pure Runick is one thing but the deck is rarely, if ever, ran pure. Stun decks having access to an extra deck monster to protect their back row, easy ways to summon Vanities Fiend. Fountain being a Card of Demise with no downside after exhausting all their cards in hand, recycling their searchers and pops. All the while, banishing key pieces of your deck making certain strategies a liability to even use. Have had way more fun dealing with Tenpai than I ever did against that deck.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originalmente postado por Astrallight:

I dont really need to spend time trying to persuade you to think it happend or not. He had perfect hand and managed to mill 95% of my deck in 3 turns. It sucks to play against it. Mostly when all your counters to it is already gone cause he gets a perfect mil on you.

With Fountain at 1 you atleast have some counters to it. With 3 you dont. And if fountain should come back at 3 then every other Runick card should be limited to 1 for balanced purposes.

In the end you have to draw a line for how much draw power you want Runick to have and how much spell spam they are allowed to have in a BO1. You dont want them to have both.

Yeah, it's the same perfect storm as the ridiculous streaks of coin toss losses. With the sheer insane number of duels that happen each day, people getting that unlucky every now and then is essentially guaranteed. It feels terrible even if it's technically "fair" in the abstract, and unlike the coin tosses there's something they can actually do to prevent the problem.

[TormentedSalad]

Originalmente postado por HeraldOfOpera:

Originalmente postado por Astrallight:

I dont really need to spend time trying to persuade you to think it happend or not. He had perfect hand and managed to mill 95% of my deck in 3 turns. It sucks to play against it. Mostly when all your counters to it is already gone cause he gets a perfect mil on you.

With Fountain at 1 you atleast have some counters to it. With 3 you dont. And if fountain should come back at 3 then every other Runick card should be limited to 1 for balanced purposes.

In the end you have to draw a line for how much draw power you want Runick to have and how much spell spam they are allowed to have in a BO1. You dont want them to have both.

Yeah, it's the same perfect storm as the ridiculous streaks of coin toss losses. With the sheer insane number of duels that happen each day, people getting that unlucky every now and then is essentially guaranteed. It feels terrible even if it's technically "fair" in the abstract, and unlike the coin tosses there's something they can actually do to prevent the problem.

The fun part comes in where if you actually started taking Runick cards off the banlist it would be less likely to happen if I could play more copies of the good spells i'd cut down on the bad ones maybe just cut droplet entirely at that point good for decking people out bad for anything else really.

[Raven]

Originalmente postado por HeraldOfOpera:

I will agree with you with the caveat that it only applies to Master Duel and other automated sims. Choice restrictions make a bit too annoying to be sure that your opponent is cheating in paper, but that isn't an issue in the specific conversation we're actually having.

Sorry, I thought that was obvious; Yes, this applies only to master duel. I feel like master duel is being wasted so badly that Konami is completely incompetent with how much money they are pissing away despite how greedy they are.

Two features that would revolutionize and at the same time "fix" yugioh that master duel could *EASILY* do: implement choice restriction, do keywords properly. Imagine how fun the game could be with cards having to choose restrictions or patch errata updates, then on top of that add proper keywords like "hand trap" or "flood gate" that would limit the amount of them used in a deck, regardless of which ones you used? No more than 6-12 hand traps in a deck, period. No more than 3-6 flood gates in a deck, period.

This is only possible with the digital format, but that's would change the game in such a fashion and make it desirable to so many people, money would absolutely flood in. Konami is too trained on looking at short term investments, which is ironic, because being able to manipulate cards on the fly would make the turn over even better.

[Ehgk-Zakhari]

no. runick fountain should be banned.

[Bad Distraction Carnifex]

Probably not due to looping the field spell. +3 is powerful but +6 to +9 is game breaking and starts to enable some silly milltk strategies.

[TormentedSalad]

Originalmente postado por Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Probably not due to looping the field spell. +3 is powerful but +6 to +9 is game breaking and starts to enable some silly milltk strategies.

That is not at all reasonably possible outside of some other insane ♥♥♥♥ that lets you mill like 20+ cards off your opponents deck given the absolute max runick can mill you for the first turn is maybe around 15 and thats with allure totaling all the runick spells playable turn 1 into an empty board you get 11 banished cards

Edit: sorry slight error its actually 10 + 1 draw in my head I counted golden droplet as 5 as it takes 5 off your deck in total

[CrazyNumber4]

Originalmente postado por Merilirem:

Its been awhile. You think 2 fountains would be too much?

Yes it would be! This card deserve to stay limited to 1

[Bad Distraction Carnifex]

Originalmente postado por TormentedSalad:

Originalmente postado por Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Probably not due to looping the field spell. +3 is powerful but +6 to +9 is game breaking and starts to enable some silly milltk strategies.

That is not at all reasonably possible outside of some other insane ♥♥♥♥ that lets you mill like 20+ cards off your opponents deck given the absolute max runick can mill you for the first turn is maybe around 15 and thats with allure totaling all the runick spells playable turn 1 into an empty board you get 11 banished cards

Edit: sorry slight error its actually 10 + 1 draw in my head I counted golden droplet as 5 as it takes 5 off your deck in total

IDK. I can legit mill 20+ cards in my T1 plus their T1 and keep refreshing. That disruption alone is a big deal but then you get another one of those turns or 2, poof. No more resources and you're sitting there with whatever you can muster,

Some decks can do it but most can't. If you put Fountain to anything but 1 it gets degenerate really, really fast,

Runick is a great draw engine if you put Fountain past 1 and even at 1 in some cases it's just an issue. I know because I run Runick Horus and wreck lives.

[TormentedSalad]

Originalmente postado por Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Originalmente postado por TormentedSalad:

That is not at all reasonably possible outside of some other insane ♥♥♥♥ that lets you mill like 20+ cards off your opponents deck given the absolute max runick can mill you for the first turn is maybe around 15 and thats with allure totaling all the runick spells playable turn 1 into an empty board you get 11 banished cards

Edit: sorry slight error its actually 10 + 1 draw in my head I counted golden droplet as 5 as it takes 5 off your deck in total

IDK. I can legit mill 20+ cards in my T1 plus their T1 and keep refreshing. That disruption alone is a big deal but then you get another one of those turns or 2, poof. No more resources and you're sitting there with whatever you can muster,

Some decks can do it but most can't. If you put Fountain to anything but 1 it gets degenerate really, really fast,

Runick is a great draw engine if you put Fountain past 1 and even at 1 in some cases it's just an issue. I know because I run Runick Horus and wreck lives.

see you claimed "Milltk" that implied to me that the game had 1 turn meaning half the Runick spells are glorified instant fusions I dont think we need to see it at 3 but I think given how helpless fountain is against S:P I would say give em 2 ban more floodgates if your worried about stun taking off nobody will miss those