what you think they trying to do with the new banlist or which direction are they trying to go?

[Witcher]

.

[e-dood]

Publicado originalmente por Zephyr:

Publicado originalmente por e-dood:

I was referring to stun players in general. The Ojama's of the YGO player base.

So, unless you are a stun player, I wasn't referring to you.

Unless you are a stun player and you are lying when you say you aren't a stun player.

Again denying it doesn't make it any less obvious who you were referring to, you can tiptoe around saying it outright but it's clear what you actually meant.

Regardless I'm not wasting time with this further, I got ♥♥♥♥ to do and have zero interest listening to you lie through your teeth, ciao.

I'm not denying anything. I really wasn't referring to you.

Not sure why you felt I was. Unless you are a stun player

[Zephyr]

Publicado originalmente por G3:

Dang. All it took to get Zephyr out of his cave was banning a floodgate he doesn't play because they aren't a stun player.

You realize not every deck that runs floodgates are stun decks right? Guess not.

I played both in my Altergeist control deck, and used Summon Limit in my Eldlich control deck since I had an extra card slot and it needed the help.

So to answer your question. It's handtraps. But, you don't like those so you won't accept that answer.

No, that's not an answer for the reasons I preemptively mentioned. My disgust of them is because of the longstanding myth Yugioh players still believe that they counter combo decks.

Right now we have D.Shifter. It's both a floodgate and a handtraps. But, you aren't a stun player and don't like handtraps. So you won't play it.

I'm fine with handtraps that are actually balanced like Nibiru or any that have the clause "if you control no cards", not unbalanced garbage handtraps that have no cost besides discarding them to activate their effect like Ash or Maxx C.

I don't know why you want continous cards you can play going second on your opponent's turn before they can play.

I don't and have never said that, but it's clear you're just being disingenuous since don't have an answer for an alternative to floodgates.

But, Konami will take that into consideration for the power level of the game in 6 years.

Only if it makes them money, and the only thing that makes them money is catering to the lowest common denominator that plays the game (i.e. combo players) so they can sell cards. They're a business after all.

[Zephyr]

Publicado originalmente por TormentedSalad:

Publicado originalmente por Zephyr:

Because there's literally no functional difference whatsoever of not being able to do anything and everything you do resulting in nothing, to use your analogy it's like being prevented from punching or punching a brick wall.

I would like to have the choice to do it even if it results in nothing there is nothing more depressing than having my ability to make choices taken away I would genuinely rather choose to do nothing than being told that im not allowed to do anything.

Well I disagree, but I can understand what you mean. Personally I find it more demoralizing if the choice is just an illusion, because if it was a fruitless effort regardless why bother presenting it as a choice when it didn't matter?

[TormentedSalad]

Publicado originalmente por Zephyr:

Publicado originalmente por TormentedSalad:

I would like to have the choice to do it even if it results in nothing there is nothing more depressing than having my ability to make choices taken away I would genuinely rather choose to do nothing than being told that im not allowed to do anything.

Well I disagree, but I can understand what you mean. Personally I find it more demoralizing if the choice is just an illusion, because if it was a fruitless effort regardless why bother presenting it as a choice when it didn't matter?

I would still rather have the choice to try and play because thats what im here for to play a game and if we ever see something consistent enough to setup 6 omni negates then obviously banlist needs to happen then and i'd be happy to see whatever it is go.

[e-dood]

Oooh, someone gave me a bunch of free steam points.

Thanks mate. Lol.

[Zephyr]

Publicado originalmente por TormentedSalad:

Publicado originalmente por Zephyr:

Well I disagree, but I can understand what you mean. Personally I find it more demoralizing if the choice is just an illusion, because if it was a fruitless effort regardless why bother presenting it as a choice when it didn't matter?

I would still rather have the choice to try and play because thats what im here for to play a game and if we ever see something consistent enough to setup 6 omni negates then obviously banlist needs to happen then and i'd be happy to see whatever it is go.

Well despite my misgivings that's entirely respectable, thanks for being willing to actually earnestly discuss it unlike everyone else in this thread.

[G3]

Eldlich and Altergeist are stun decks. I'll let you slide if you're the one player actually using the Eldlich Fusions and the higher Geist Links no one plays.

Handtraps stop all decks. You need a way to interrupt any deck going first since going first is so strong. Combo is just the deck type that does the most on turn one.

You consistently say floodgates are for anti-combo only. But, refuse handtraps vehemently. So I can only assume you wanted new continous floodgates that are also quick effects like handtraps are. You know. So you can stop combo going second. Those would definitely be the next step in handtrap powercreep. Why play Ash for a one for one when you can drop a Mistake handtrap instead? We're almost there with Droll and Lock Bird.

[Zephyr]

Publicado originalmente por G3:

Eldlich and Altergeist are stun decks. I'll let you slide if you're the one player actually using the Eldlich Fusions and the higher Geist Links no one plays.

They aren't, they're control decks.

But yes, I use the fusions and higher Altergeist links as anyone should.

Handtraps stop all decks. You need a way to interrupt any deck going first since going first is so strong. Combo is just the deck type that does the most on turn one.

They don't stop combo decks because they often have several cards that do the same crucial effects they need.

You consistently say floodgates are for anti-combo only. But, refuse handtraps vehemently.

Because floodgates are in fact the best anti-combo tool available and handtraps are barely a speedbump against combo.

So I can only assume you wanted new continous floodgates that are also quick effects like handtraps are.

Why in gods name would I ever want such a thing?

You know. So you can stop combo going second.

Board breakers, board breakers are for going second.

Floodgates are for using going first.

Those would definitely be the next step in handtrap powercreep. Why play Ash for a one for one when you can drop a Mistake handtrap instead? We're almost there with Droll and Lock Bird.

Thankfully that'll never happen because the Yugioh community is so laughably paranoid when it comes to floodgates anything that could even be considered such is extremely unlikely to be printed these days, the closest we'll probably get is blanket immunities like the Gimmick Puppet field spell or Tenpai's field spell.

I think it's more likely we'll see handtraps that are non-OPT and further reaching in terms of effects they stop, maybe even 2-3 effects on a single handtrap.

[Astrallight]

Publicado originalmente por Silyon:

In short, it's cleanup of cards that have no business still being banned, letting Branded decks breathe a little, and continuing to try and force people to learn how to interact with the game in a healthier manner instead of leaning on the blanket "No" of floodgates as a crutch.

It's actually a pretty good adjustment imo. Which is surprising, I'm used to Master Duel banlists doing nothing at all.

Edit: Wow, Jester in record time. Someone doesn't like being called out, wonder who.

People that usually are the loudest in the crowd. Atleast combo decks you can interact with. Try and bait thier negates and such. Stun and floodgates req you to draw the out. Cant be interacted with in any way. Also multiple negates takes resources to build up. Something people can stop with handtraps. If you see people defend floodgates then they most likely is a stun player.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Konami will continue playing to the strengths of the only mainstream TCG with no proper resource system: deranged combo hellscape where it's normal to play more cards in one turn than most other games would in an entire duel. To do anything else would be economic suicide.

[e-dood]

Publicado originalmente por HeraldOfOpera:

Konami will continue playing to the strengths of the only mainstream TCG with no proper resource system: deranged combo hellscape where it's normal to play more cards in one turn than most other games would in an entire duel. To do anything else would be economic suicide.

The sad part is that the degeneracy is hard baked into the game for a couple of decades now.

[DontMisunderstand]

Publicado originalmente por G3:

Eldlich and Altergeist are stun decks. I'll let you slide if you're the one player actually using the Eldlich Fusions and the higher Geist Links no one plays.

Handtraps stop all decks. You need a way to interrupt any deck going first since going first is so strong. Combo is just the deck type that does the most on turn one.

You consistently say floodgates are for anti-combo only. But, refuse handtraps vehemently. So I can only assume you wanted new continous floodgates that are also quick effects like handtraps are. You know. So you can stop combo going second. Those would definitely be the next step in handtrap powercreep. Why play Ash for a one for one when you can drop a Mistake handtrap instead? We're almost there with Droll and Lock Bird.

Handtraps are just as powerful going first and second, which means they benefit the going first player more BECAUSE going first is stronger. The actual solution to this imbalance is stronger going second cards that are harder to interact with.

[DontMisunderstand]

Publicado originalmente por HeraldOfOpera:

Konami will continue playing to the strengths of the only mainstream TCG with no proper resource system: deranged combo hellscape where it's normal to play more cards in one turn than most other games would in an entire duel. To do anything else would be economic suicide.

The actual strength of the Yugioh card game is trap cards. Or more specifically, the extremely specific feeling they give to the players. A gameplay flow that FEELS like you earned the outcome, whether you win or lose. That's the actual strength that built Yugioh in the first place. That's a feeling that very much still exists in the design of the game, but is lacking in the modern metagame. Every other game comes with built-in excuses for why you couldn't have predicted what would happen when you make a mistake. Yugioh at the very least tries to make sure you have as few excuses as possible for misplays. That is its actual strength as a TCG, the thing that makes it stand out.

For the record, a typical MtG game plays more cards than a typical Yugioh game. It's just flatly untrue to say that more things happen in a game of Yugioh than other card games.

[G3]

Publicado originalmente por DontMisunderstand:

Handtraps are just as powerful going first and second, which means they benefit the going first player more BECAUSE going first is stronger. The actual solution to this imbalance is stronger going second cards that are harder to interact with.

You are soo right. Going First's 1+1=2 is mathematically better than Going Second's 0+1=1. They should unlimit Sangan Summoning and give us more Chimeratech-like cards that are generic. Konami please.

[TormentedSalad]

Publicado originalmente por Zephyr:

Publicado originalmente por G3:

Eldlich and Altergeist are stun decks. I'll let you slide if you're the one player actually using the Eldlich Fusions and the higher Geist Links no one plays.

They aren't, they're control decks.

Really depends how they are built if we remember Eldlich from early MD they ran maxed out on just about every floodgate they could find that was a stun deck stun is defined by your goal being to shut down as many ways to do anything as possible Eldlich was simply a big guy that formed a timer.