Agree or disagree: Yu-Gi-Oh is not that complex (at least as a video game).

[Kayde Bastion]

I know it's a general consensus outside of the Yu-Gi-Oh club that it's a very complex card game 'cause of all the actions and the text heavy cards, but it's actually not that hard: You place your cards to play better cards, you set your traps and spells, you attack your opponent's cards and drain their life points. Simple.

I guess the real complexity comes from all the different summoning methods that are too many to count, and I'll admit there are way too many ways to play your cards that more or less all play out the same--but the game helps you out so much that you're practically playing on auto pilot. Can you get a little carried away at times? Sure, but you could always halt yourself and carry on to the next phase or whatever.

But yeah, I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh is that complex. Maybe the physical card game is since you actually have to read and understand your cards, but as for Duel Masters or Duel Links, not really. I mean, they even highlight certain texts on the cards depending on the context of what's going on.

[Astrallight]

Its still too complex for some people to not use spell cards in Imperm zone. 1 year ago this was added and people still blindly put cards into that highlighted zone.

[Silyon]

Kayde Bastion の投稿を引用：

But yeah, I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh is that complex. Maybe the physical card game is since you actually have to read and understand your cards, but as for Duel Masters or Duel Links, not really. I mean, they even highlight certain texts on the cards depending on the context of what's going on.

The fact that they do highlight the relevant effects in the card text is itself an admission of and concession to the game's complexity. If it were not complex, they wouldn't have bothered with those kinds of accessability options. Point of fact, on Master Duel's launch they didn't have that feature, it was added some months after release. The Graphic to keep track of the Imperm Column is another example.

Yugioh is the most complex TCG on the market, without question. The only way it might not be considered complex is with false equivalencies to completely different types of games or absurdist reductionism. Most relevant cards have three (or more) separate effects that are applied under different circumstances that they are played, numerous cards have lingering effects or costs that the player is expected to remember and keep track of (without counters or notes in tournament settings), and proper deck construction depends on analysis of abstracts like effect synergy, card advantage, Speed and tempo, and more. The most complex deck in Magic the Gathering, YGO's closest competitor, has nothing on a basic and functional Yugioh beatdown deck like Cyber Dragons.

This is before even getting into the honestly impressive number of fringe and unintuitive rulings on how certain cards interact with one another. So many that it spawned the meme of "Because Konami Said So."

[Merilirem]

Silyon の投稿を引用：

Kayde Bastion の投稿を引用：

But yeah, I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh is that complex. Maybe the physical card game is since you actually have to read and understand your cards, but as for Duel Masters or Duel Links, not really. I mean, they even highlight certain texts on the cards depending on the context of what's going on.

The fact that they do highlight the relevant effects in the card text is itself an admission of and concession to the game's complexity. If it were not complex, they wouldn't have bothered with those kinds of accessability options. Point of fact, on Master Duel's launch they didn't have that feature, it was added some months after release. The Graphic to keep track of the Imperm Column is another example.

Yugioh is the most complex TCG on the market, without question. The only way it might not be considered complex is with false equivalencies to completely different types of games or absurdist reductionism. Most relevant cards have three (or more) separate effects that are applied under different circumstances that they are played, numerous cards have lingering effects or costs that the player is expected to remember and keep track of (without counters or notes in tournament settings), and proper deck construction depends on analysis of abstracts like effect synergy, card advantage, Speed and tempo, and more. The most complex deck in Magic the Gathering, YGO's closest competitor, has nothing on a basic and functional Yugioh beatdown deck like Cyber Dragons.

This is before even getting into the honestly impressive number of fringe and unintuitive rulings on how certain cards interact with one another. So many that it spawned the meme of "Because Konami Said So."

What? Most card games have those kinds of features don't they? Plenty I have played anyway. On launch MD just wasn't close to finished. Still isn't imo.

[G3]

I don't think the skill floor of the game is too high. The skill ceiling however. Goes to the moon. Learning synchro summoning is simple addition vs learning why your cards don't work the way you think they do night and day.

If "pick a number between 1 and 10" and reading is too hard for you. Then card games as a whole might be too hard for you. You aren't ready for rulings, game mechanics and, card interactions.

[Merilirem]

G3 の投稿を引用：

I don't think the skill floor of the game is too high. The skill ceiling however. Goes to the moon. Learning synchro summoning is simple addition vs learning why your cards don't work the way you think they do night and day.

If "pick a number between 1 and 10" and reading is too hard for you. Then card games as a whole might be too hard for you. You aren't ready for rulings, game mechanics and, card interactions.

The floor is absolutely too high because its a floor. The floor of any games should be as low as possible so that new players can get into it without being confused. The main issue however is that because Yugioh is a game where you can do everything immediately, people see the end result immediately. There is no turn by turn build to combo's they can grasp. Its just straight into the full plays.

Learning becomes a lot easier when you simplify the game by removing all the combo elements. Even swordsoul is too much for a new player to be expected to understand. You need T set pass gameplay until they understand the rules properly. After that they can work on understanding swordsoul level decks.

[Ehgk-Zakhari]

wrong

[G3]

Merilirem の投稿を引用：

G3 の投稿を引用：

I don't think the skill floor of the game is too high. The skill ceiling however. Goes to the moon. Learning synchro summoning is simple addition vs learning why your cards don't work the way you think they do night and day.

If "pick a number between 1 and 10" and reading is too hard for you. Then card games as a whole might be too hard for you. You aren't ready for rulings, game mechanics and, card interactions.

The floor is absolutely too high because its a floor. The floor of any games should be as low as possible so that new players can get into it without being confused. The main issue however is that because Yugioh is a game where you can do everything immediately, people see the end result immediately. There is no turn by turn build to combo's they can grasp. Its just straight into the full plays.

Learning becomes a lot easier when you simplify the game by removing all the combo elements. Even swordsoul is too much for a new player to be expected to understand. You need T set pass gameplay until they understand the rules properly. After that they can work on understanding swordsoul level decks.

I find it personally difficult to understand exactly how quickly another person learns. The base of the game has always seemed easy to me. Starting with LoB and returning to Pendulum. How to summon. What you can summon. How to use S/T. How to attack/defend. The phases.

The nuance within the game is the hard part. But, a new player isn't going to hit that wall until someone tells them what they're trying to do doesn't work or MD just stops you from continuing. Spell Speeds. When cards can be used because of said speeds. Chain Links and how to resolve them. Battle steps. What can activate in said battle steps. The list goes on. That's where I started to have trouble. Asking if I could use Twin Twisters in the draw phase was a real question I had coming back.

[itzRiceKrispies]

IsthisKosher の投稿を引用：

People will insist that the game was always dominated by a meta, but a lot of that was reserved to tournaments

Mind=Blown!

U do realize that u can take Summoned Skull beat-down directly into ranked, which is not "a tournament", at any time right? Most of the cards from Legend of Blue-Eyes & Metal Raiders are still in the game. In fact Dark Hole is back to 3. Or is LOB & Metal Raiders not allowed to have a meta?

Also yes Summoned Skull Beat was "The Meta", it basically established "Meta" & what it is. Hell if going by those 2 packs, its basically Tier 0, nothing else can consistently beat it.

Some of the asinine ♥♥♥♥ I see people say in these forums sometimes man just..... ugghgh!

[cybercybercybercyber4]

itzRiceKrispies の投稿を引用：

IsthisKosher の投稿を引用：

People will insist that the game was always dominated by a meta, but a lot of that was reserved to tournaments

Mind=Blown!

i think he just tried to put too much meaning into too few words.
sometimes the meta shifted from tournament to tournament with people adapting their tech lineup to most recent results, this for example is something that hardly exists online as MD-meta is not even close to being reliable source for feedback.

But oh well, he will likely reply himself.

[IsthisKosher]

itzRiceKrispies の投稿を引用：

IsthisKosher の投稿を引用：

People will insist that the game was always dominated by a meta, but a lot of that was reserved to tournaments

Mind=Blown!

U do realize that u can take Summoned Skull beat-down directly into ranked, which is not "a tournament", at any time right? Most of the cards from Legend of Blue-Eyes & Metal Raiders are still in the game. In fact Dark Hole is back to 3. Or is LOB & Metal Raiders not allowed to have a meta?

Also yes Summoned Skull Beat was "The Meta", it basically established "Meta" & what it is. Hell if going by those 2 packs, its basically Tier 0, nothing else can consistently beat it.

Some of the asinine ♥♥♥♥ I see people say in these forums sometimes man just..... ugghgh!

I was saying that it was more common to find spaces to play the game where people wouldn't feel it was necessary to pull big combos and meta built decks when they made new themes for casual play in mind rather than feeding into what the meta strat is so they can survive in tournament or higher meta-tiers.

It seemed like you thought I said, "You can only play meta cards in tournaments", which would be an obviously crazy and untrue statement from anyone that has built any deck in this game...I have like 420 hours in this right now.

[DontMisunderstand]

Yugioh has a lot of text but ultimately not a lot of complexity to it. Because of the hard limit on board states, it has a cap on how complex the game can ever be, which is just untrue for most other card games. Even the walls of text on each card tend to be excessively simple effects that just use a lot of words because Yugioh card templating is inefficient.

Mostly, the insistence that Yugioh is actually complex comes from insecurities stemming from comparisons between Yugioh and other card games. It's not as popular, so they feel the need to justify that. It's aimed at younger demographics, so they feel the need to justify why it's for adults too. And so on.

[Merilirem]

DontMisunderstand の投稿を引用：

Yugioh has a lot of text but ultimately not a lot of complexity to it. Because of the hard limit on board states, it has a cap on how complex the game can ever be, which is just untrue for most other card games. Even the walls of text on each card tend to be excessively simple effects that just use a lot of words because Yugioh card templating is inefficient.

Mostly, the insistence that Yugioh is actually complex comes from insecurities stemming from comparisons between Yugioh and other card games. It's not as popular, so they feel the need to justify that. It's aimed at younger demographics, so they feel the need to justify why it's for adults too. And so on.

That second part is straight silly. No one feel insecure. There are genuinely just a lot of people who can't grasp the game while playing competently in other card games like MTG. Strange as it may seem.

Also most card games are playable for younger folk. They are supposed to be. Even if they aim higher you don't make a game more complicated for adults. Because adults can also be unable to grasp that complex game.

[76561198954155998]

Kayde Bastion の投稿を引用：

But yeah, I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh is that complex. Maybe the physical card game is since you actually have to read and understand your cards, but as for Duel Masters or Duel Links, not really. I mean, they even highlight certain texts on the cards depending on the context of what's going on.

I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh is that complex but instead it's rather tedious to understand properly and master. I think it doesn't make it any better when you've got extremely small-sounding stuff like the difference between cost and effect making a HUGE impact on a game state and not knowing about it. THAT i feel is where the "complexity" lies.

[ExcretumNecris]

The only thing about YGO that is complex is balancing it and since that isn't a requirement for making money, it's also not happening.

[HeraldOfOpera]

EBlade3529 の投稿を引用：

Kayde Bastion の投稿を引用：

But yeah, I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh is that complex. Maybe the physical card game is since you actually have to read and understand your cards, but as for Duel Masters or Duel Links, not really. I mean, they even highlight certain texts on the cards depending on the context of what's going on.

I don't think Yu-Gi-Oh is that complex but instead it's rather tedious to understand properly and master. I think it doesn't make it any better when you've got extremely small-sounding stuff like the difference between cost and effect making a HUGE impact on a game state and not knowing about it. THAT i feel is where the "complexity" lies.

Yeah, it seemingly has stupid hair-splitting for the sake of having stupid hair-splitting rather than the actual good kind of complexity. Even in the anime, I'm pretty sure the only time rules minutiae mattered was in a filler arc.