Why do you think Snake-eyes is OP?

[Chojoukif]

Asking out of genuine curiosity. There is no denying snake eyes is super strong, but what do you think, if anything, makes it "too strong"? Honestly for me personally I don't even really mind playing against snake-eyes, apart from their 150 second 1st turn that almost always goes exactly the same (well, there's like 3 popular versions of it depending on what else the deck is mixing in and maybe some small variation in each version). I am much more annoyed by tearlament and branded, or just generic turbo-cancer synchro piles that make a full board of negate synchro monsters (Not to say that these decks are stronger per se, just that I don't like playing against them). This might be military grade copium but honestly a lot of times snake-eyes matchups just feel winnable to me, and despite their overwhelming follow up, there are still some choke points in their combos like when they send with snake-eye ash or if you can catch them off guard when they make masquarena or promethean.

When I really think about it I don't know what snake-eyes does exactly that's so bad, they can spam a lot of bodies to the field but so can a bunch of other decks, they have strong floating effects but its not completely unreasonable, they get a lot of easy card advantage due to the searches that trigger on both their and the opponents turn, not to mention some of the spells cycle as well, and yes, this is perhaps the part that is the most oppressive but once again a deck like tearlaments basically does almost the same thing in terms of card advantage. Maybe its just the combination of all of these things, maybe its just like horus and kashtira, the cards are too splashable into almost any strategy which just makes them feel toxic. I don't know. Just to be clear, I am not defending snake-eyes in any shape or form, I don't even have any snake-eyes cards so my only experience if from playing against the deck, I am just curious to hear what people think.

[76561199543893354]

Assuming we're just talking about pure (since the other variants are way more cancerious) for me the main issue is just how easy it is to spam ED crap, which is just an overkill considering how easy they can get started, recover from board-wipes aside of maybe Evenly, and generally deal with w/e you throw at them. Using your monsters against you can get pretty hardcore too. And searchable Kurikara is just cray and can win you games by itself.

Switching perspectives, when playing other meta stuff like Branded or Lab, I still have to care about my opening hand and worry about my stuff getting negated like I'd do with a normal deck. With SE, it's usually w/e since 1 card resolving is plenty to get at least even, and next turn will allow to build up on that. And if it went very bad ... chances are, I will still survive the turn and get the opportunity to try again.

And yeah, they don't feel nearly as oppressive as tear or branded but that's probably because they don't play on your turn as much and the stuff they do is pretty defensive.

[Chojoukif]

Oprindeligt skrevet af sr5123rs:

Assuming we're just talking about pure (since the other variants are way more cancerious) for me the main issue is just how easy it is to spam ED crap, which is just an overkill considering how easy they can get started, recover from board-wipes aside of maybe Evenly, and generally deal with w/e you throw at them. Using your monsters against you can get pretty hardcore too. And searchable Kurikara is just cray and can win you games by itself.

Switching perspectives, when playing other meta stuff like Branded or Lab, I still have to care about my opening hand and worry about my stuff getting negated like I'd do with a normal deck. With SE, it's usually w/e since 1 card resolving is plenty to get at least even, and next turn will allow to build up on that. And if it went very bad ... chances are, I will still survive the turn and get the opportunity to try again.

And yeah, they don't feel nearly as oppressive as tear or branded but that's probably because they don't play on your turn as much and the stuff they do is pretty defensive.

Ok so basically its the infinite follow up that's bothering you. I will agree, I think kurikara being so easily searchable by snake-eyes is absolutely busted, I think the level 1 support snake-eyes has is one of the things that feels genuinely toxic about it, as in its already bad but I can't even imagine how worse it could get if more strong level 1 monster combos get discovered and/or if people figure out a way to change the attribute of level 1 monsters in the deck.

I think the 1 card combo potential of snake-eyes is also very toxic, just because of how much it increases the power floor of the game. If we get to the point where every card in the deck has to be a one card combo to be playable (or a crazy good board-breaker, floodgate etc.) I think that is a dark future indeed.

One thing I will say, out of all the cards snake-eyes typically plays, the one that I think is most toxic does not seem to be discussed very much. That card being zealantis. Where to even start with this card. Being able to summon it using only 1 link 4 is just broken, I can't imagine what they were thinking with that. It's first ability to banish the whole field and resummon all the monsters to any zone is absurdly toxic for the game. It basically completely invalidates the linking mechanic as it allows the opponent to just screw up all your links, any special properties your cards might have had like the salamangreat relinking properties are lost, and they can even set the opponents monsters face down to effectively negate their effects. This ability also enables a super easy OTK with raging phoenix + promethean where you pop 1 card with promethean and then 2 more with zealantis's second ability and subsequently attack for game with raging + promethean, with zealantis in reserve, so even 4 monsters is not enough to stop this OTK, even destruction protection is not enough since zealantis can set that monster, and you get it all for the low low price of 3 material, or 2 if you have a target for dharc or hiita (I'm sure there are other link 2's that do it as well). It's just such an easy OTK its disgusting, you just grind away the opponents resources with snake-eyes and then you just do the OTK. A lot of people seem to think the problem card in the combo is promethean but I think without a doubt the problem card is zealantis.

[Monkey P DOOFY]

The deck consisting of like 5-7 one card starters means they can play half of their deck as hand traps. So they can build an amazing endboard while also having things like Maxx C + Ash/Effect Veiler/Nib/etc. If it was just their endboard and their hand was empty the deck wouldn't be nearly as difficult to play into tbh.

[Chojoukif]

Oprindeligt skrevet af KDot showed me true hate:

The deck consisting of like 5-7 one card starters means they can play half of their deck as hand traps. So they can build an amazing endboard while also having things like Maxx C + Ash/Effect Veiler/Nib/etc. If it was just their endboard and their hand was empty the deck wouldn't be nearly as difficult to play into tbh.

I used to play this "game" where at the end of turn 2 (after having gone first) I would compare how many cards where left in my deck and my opponents deck. My deck usually sat around 30, my opponents... yeah, well its usually around 25 to 15. The 15 in particular is what I often see from tearlament (well of course, most of the cards they mill are not useful in the GY but the point stands that they get to "play" with those cards in some capacity). I get what you mean though, it does feel a little bit like I am in the twilight zone or something with how often I get handtrapped turn 1, perhaps its not just my imagination but its partly due to the influence of snake-eyes.

[Papa Shekels]

The deck can put up a board of interactions that is comparable to a combo deck, but can also recur its resources every turn like a midrange deck, and does all this with no locks. It can even be done without your normal summon if you draw one for one or wanted/diabellstar. Any one of these would be fine, but all at once is far too much

[76561199543893354]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Chojoukif:

Ok so basically its the infinite follow up that's bothering you. I will agree, I think kurikara being so easily searchable by snake-eyes is absolutely busted, I think the level 1 support snake-eyes has is one of the things that feels genuinely toxic about it, as in its already bad but I can't even imagine how worse it could get if more strong level 1 monster combos get discovered and/or if people figure out a way to change the attribute of level 1 monsters in the deck.

I think the 1 card combo potential of snake-eyes is also very toxic, just because of how much it increases the power floor of the game. If we get to the point where every card in the deck has to be a one card combo to be playable (or a crazy good board-breaker, floodgate etc.) I think that is a dark future indeed.

One thing I will say, out of all the cards snake-eyes typically plays, the one that I think is most toxic does not seem to be discussed very much. That card being zealantis. Where to even start with this card. Being able to summon it using only 1 link 4 is just broken, I can't imagine what they were thinking with that. It's first ability to banish the whole field and resummon all the monsters to any zone is absurdly toxic for the game. It basically completely invalidates the linking mechanic as it allows the opponent to just screw up all your links, any special properties your cards might have had like the salamangreat relinking properties are lost, and they can even set the opponents monsters face down to effectively negate their effects. This ability also enables a super easy OTK with raging phoenix + promethean where you pop 1 card with promethean and then 2 more with zealantis's second ability and subsequently attack for game with raging + promethean, with zealantis in reserve, so even 4 monsters is not enough to stop this OTK, even destruction protection is not enough since zealantis can set that monster, and you get it all for the low low price of 3 material, or 2 if you have a target for dharc or hiita (I'm sure there are other link 2's that do it as well). It's just such an easy OTK its disgusting, you just grind away the opponents resources with snake-eyes and then you just do the OTK. A lot of people seem to think the problem card in the combo is promethean but I think without a doubt the problem card is zealantis.

IMO the infinite follow up would be mostly fine too if there were more locks regarding the stuff you can puke out of the ED. It's telling you're mentioning Zealantis as the most toxic play. A card that has nothing to do with SE but still can be easily summoned by it. Promethean having a fire lock went into the right direction but it's way too easy to bypass, so kinda meaningless.

I wish it had its own Sinful Spoils ED that mimics some of the effects of Promethean, Phoenix and Hiita have but they would get locked to just these after using any of the Sinful Spoils/Snake Eyes cards. Would also reduce the risk of pulling out some silly lvl 1 combo strats and neutralize the extra cancer of SE rescue ace or SE firekings.

As for the 1 card combo power floor ... that ship probably sailed since 2022.

[Chojoukif]

Oprindeligt skrevet af sr5123rs:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Chojoukif:

Ok so basically its the infinite follow up that's bothering you. I will agree, I think kurikara being so easily searchable by snake-eyes is absolutely busted, I think the level 1 support snake-eyes has is one of the things that feels genuinely toxic about it, as in its already bad but I can't even imagine how worse it could get if more strong level 1 monster combos get discovered and/or if people figure out a way to change the attribute of level 1 monsters in the deck.

I think the 1 card combo potential of snake-eyes is also very toxic, just because of how much it increases the power floor of the game. If we get to the point where every card in the deck has to be a one card combo to be playable (or a crazy good board-breaker, floodgate etc.) I think that is a dark future indeed.

One thing I will say, out of all the cards snake-eyes typically plays, the one that I think is most toxic does not seem to be discussed very much. That card being zealantis. Where to even start with this card. Being able to summon it using only 1 link 4 is just broken, I can't imagine what they were thinking with that. It's first ability to banish the whole field and resummon all the monsters to any zone is absurdly toxic for the game. It basically completely invalidates the linking mechanic as it allows the opponent to just screw up all your links, any special properties your cards might have had like the salamangreat relinking properties are lost, and they can even set the opponents monsters face down to effectively negate their effects. This ability also enables a super easy OTK with raging phoenix + promethean where you pop 1 card with promethean and then 2 more with zealantis's second ability and subsequently attack for game with raging + promethean, with zealantis in reserve, so even 4 monsters is not enough to stop this OTK, even destruction protection is not enough since zealantis can set that monster, and you get it all for the low low price of 3 material, or 2 if you have a target for dharc or hiita (I'm sure there are other link 2's that do it as well). It's just such an easy OTK its disgusting, you just grind away the opponents resources with snake-eyes and then you just do the OTK. A lot of people seem to think the problem card in the combo is promethean but I think without a doubt the problem card is zealantis.

IMO the infinite follow up would be mostly fine too if there were more locks regarding the stuff you can puke out of the ED. It's telling you're mentioning Zealantis as the most toxic play. A card that has nothing to do with SE but still can be easily summoned by it. Promethean having a fire lock went into the right direction but it's way too easy to bypass, so kinda meaningless.

I wish it had its own Sinful Spoils ED that mimics some of the effects of Promethean, Phoenix and Hiita have but they would get locked to just these after using any of the Sinful Spoils/Snake Eyes cards. Would also reduce the risk of pulling out some silly lvl 1 combo strats and neutralize the extra cancer of SE rescue ace or SE firekings.

As for the 1 card combo power floor ... that ship probably sailed since 2022.

Yes, the lack of lock is an astute observation. I noticed this when I was comparing my end board to theirs (I play salamangreat) and I was like, wait, these guys don't have any restrictions??? Like at all? And here I am like an bozo being locked into only fire type special summons, can't use the effects of monsters other than fire types, and if you play horse prince you can't even summon monsters higher than level 4. I know salamangreat is past its prime but it still felt so unfair that none of the other fire decks have any restrictions. That is the hidden reason why all these snake-eyes mixes exist in the first place, because as long as the cards have synergy you can use them together no questions asked. I suppose to a certain degree cards should be usable outside their own archetype, to promote experimentation, but snake-eyes takes it way too far.

Well regarding one card combos, what I was saying is that it would be bad if all cards were one card combos, of course right now there exist many one card combos and its not even a particularly new thing, but as of now most decks still have to play some cards that need other cards to combo.

[Wut]

Because of generic extra monsters garbage that should be banned a long time ago.
The sooner we get rid of generic cards the better.

[Mistic-Gohan]

Cause it takes 1 random card from the deck to start/restart a full 30 min combo ?

[HeraldOfOpera]

Oh yeah, doubling up on how Synchro piles are exactly the kind of deck people complain about being "the meta" and aren't even good. It's hilarious to me.

[Merilirem]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Wut:

Because of generic extra monsters garbage that should be banned a long time ago.
The sooner we get rid of generic cards the better.

Not all generic cards, just the ones that are too good to be generic. Those are why decks can claim victory with generic spam only.

[Wut]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Merilirem:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Wut:

Because of generic extra monsters garbage that should be banned a long time ago.
The sooner we get rid of generic cards the better.

Not all generic cards, just the ones that are too good to be generic. Those are why decks can claim victory with generic spam only.

Lets say generic garbage that we usually find in the top 8/16 decks or from Tier 0 to Tier 3 archetypes.
The funny thing, there are 20-40 generic garbage extra cards? even less? The game would be so much better without them.

[Merilirem]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Wut:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Merilirem:

Not all generic cards, just the ones that are too good to be generic. Those are why decks can claim victory with generic spam only.

Lets say generic garbage that we usually find in the top 8/16 decks or from Tier 0 to Tier 3 archetypes.
The funny thing, there are 20-40 generic garbage extra cards? even less? The game would be so much better without them.

There indeed aren't many that actually show up in Meta play. You could ban 5 at a time every few months and end up with none worth banning in a year or two even with new cards printed.

I just want to point out that generic cards serve the important purpose of giving decks options beyond mixing entire archetypes into them. They patch up holes in pure builds without compromising them and allow for interesting deck design. The issue is simply a balancing one where Barronne is better than 90% of archetypal cards despite being herself an archetypes boss monster. You might not even need to ban many of the generic cards. Just make them follow archetype rules because Barronne that required her own tuner wouldn't need a ban.

[Wut]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Merilirem:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Wut:

Lets say generic garbage that we usually find in the top 8/16 decks or from Tier 0 to Tier 3 archetypes.
The funny thing, there are 20-40 generic garbage extra cards? even less? The game would be so much better without them.

There indeed aren't many that actually show up in Meta play. You could ban 5 at a time every few months and end up with none worth banning in a year or two even with new cards printed.

I just want to point out that generic cards serve the important purpose of giving decks options beyond mixing entire archetypes into them. They patch up holes in pure builds without compromising them and allow for interesting deck design. The issue is simply a balancing one where Barronne is better than 90% of archetypal cards despite being herself an archetypes boss monster. You might not even need to ban many of the generic cards. Just make them follow archetype rules because Barronne that required her own tuner wouldn't need a ban.

Indeed

[HeraldOfOpera]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Merilirem:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Wut:

Lets say generic garbage that we usually find in the top 8/16 decks or from Tier 0 to Tier 3 archetypes.
The funny thing, there are 20-40 generic garbage extra cards? even less? The game would be so much better without them.

There indeed aren't many that actually show up in Meta play. You could ban 5 at a time every few months and end up with none worth banning in a year or two even with new cards printed.

I just want to point out that generic cards serve the important purpose of giving decks options beyond mixing entire archetypes into them. They patch up holes in pure builds without compromising them and allow for interesting deck design. The issue is simply a balancing one where Barronne is better than 90% of archetypal cards despite being herself an archetypes boss monster. You might not even need to ban many of the generic cards. Just make them follow archetype rules because Barronne that required her own tuner wouldn't need a ban.

Yeah, Baronne would be fine if it were only used in Sherry.dek and occasionally teched into Yusei.dek (which has mostly dropped Fleur Synchron, but might consider getting it back if an omni-negate was the reward).