Apparently a hot take?

[¿¡Kloey!?²]

Turn counts don't really matter.

Especially for this game. I often see people be like "you either win or lose on turn 2", often comparing it to literally every other card game. And when I see this I sit there like, "okay, just play any other card game than?" I'd rather play Yugioh where in those few minutes, everyone's cards are usually on the table and things happen and resolve and I have to think about how things would react. Of course this is NOT taking into consideration individuals who just set up a board meant to simply negate every single card that get's played, that's an entirely different discussion. My point is that I'd rather have an action packed 2-5 turn game then a slow slog of building up mana and resources and either never drawing what I want or need or bricking on those exact same resources in critical moments meanwhile my opponent has had his wincon five turns ago and I am only dragging out what is essentially the inevitable, I'm just deluded into thinking that it isn't. I've had games that reached turns of upwards of 10s to 20s and oh my goodness did I feel miserable.

This is coming from a casual player, I don't typically like decks that outright stop your opponent from doing things unless you count like dinomorphia and the solemn cards but their wincon can be ashed so it's a fair trade off ig. But it annoys me when people say the game is too fast yet people take so slow for the turns and while to a degree that's true I feel like it's this distinction is what separates Yugioh from JUST being any other card game and intentionally or not I think it's why the game has leaned in the direction it's going. Don't get me wrong, there are problems with this game and while I don't agree that the coin flip determines who wins like many people who don't have an actual argument say, there is truth to the fact that it can and usually does play a major role in how the game plays out. But as I've said in previous discussions we are just doing our best to enjoy it regardless.

Just some food for thought I just wanted to share. You are free to disagree, I just wanted to get this out there.

[Earrny]

Yeap

[¿¡Kloey!?²]

tl;dr It's not the size of the turns that matter, it's what you do in them.

[cybercybercybercyber4]

Originally posted by ¿¡Kloey!?²:

unless you count like dinomorphia and the solemn cards but their wincon can be ashed so it's a fair trade off ig.

can it though?
marella/reasoning/grass into rollback and/or masquarena+paleo+something into appollousa and/or sera into chain hole.


On topic: i prefere 5-6 shorter turns over 1-2 long ones. i prefere how synchro/xyz/pendulum era yu gi oh worked in terms of how the games unfolded. im not into the resource system of Magic though.

[¿¡Kloey!?²]

Originally posted by cybercybercybercyber4:

On topic: i prefere 5-6 shorter turns over 1-2 long ones. i prefere how synchro/xyz/pendulum era yu gi oh worked in terms of how the games unfolded. im not into the resource system of Magic though.

That's fair, can't say I disagree either. I just know that I was nowhere near as good nor had as much of an understanding of the game around that time like I do now since I literally only played with friends so going back to that era would definitely be nice and to see my opinion on it compared to now.

[Silyon]

At one point, I counted myself among the people that considered the game too fast and took offense to the fact that games were typically decided within the first two turns. For me, It was 100% a perception problem on my end, stemming from a perspective gained from other turn-based games that leave you far more restricted in the number and type of actions you can take on any particular turn. YGO, frankly, was never that way and the only reason turns ever ended was because you ran out of effects you could activate and resolve or needed another battle phase. Which happened faster in the old days of classic YGO than today, to be sure.

Really, what people like me need to realize is that "turns" as we know them are indeed still a thing. They're just...Compressed in a way. What we'd call a turn in the old days is now the space of one phase or even one chain resolution. There is nothing and has never been anything stopping you from playing just as many effects and summons as whatever combo deck you irrationally despise except your deck's own efficiency. Which means, if you're not able to do that for whatever reason, that there's room for improvements you could be making instead of shifting blame around. Own up your own failings and work to improve, that way you don't have to be mad anymore.

[Akemua]

I play the old YGO games quite a bit, since I have an old PSP homebrewed with something like 600+ games on it, and all the old YGO games are among them.

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten frustrated how slow the games can be. I understand people's frustration with not being able to play because they didn't draw enough interruption, and so the other player can build his bored unhindered; and this in turn can be exacerbated by how long the combo deck they're playing can go for.

However, in my experience, USUALLY more interaction and game play happen in those 1-2 turns, than 15-20 of ye olde YGO. It isn't until we get to the middle of Syncro and the trend continuing in the XYZ era that the game truly speeds up to where it's like 6-8 turns where similar interactions occur.

So, in short, those 1-2 turns usually means a lot of ♥♥♥♥ happens, vs in a long, drawn out duel.

Some people like that, some people don't. I personally prefer the slightly longer turns because we get to the end board more quickly than it used to.

[cybercybercybercyber4]

A few things have been lost over the years:

-the cards left in the deck being resources just by not having been activated yet. For example if you had not activated heavy storm or torrential yet the opp had to pay respect to that. Which meant they couldnt yet overextend their backrow or their frontrow.

-you had to plan turns ahead, you didnt just need take the cards in his hand and field into consideration but also the cards he might draw in the next 2-3 turns. finding the best possible move while almost taking the entire opps deck into consideration required quite some planning.

-the deckout switch, sometimes games got to endgame where finding the correct moment to aim for a deckout instead of a battle phase win could decide the game.

-the extra deck toolbox, partially still exists but with all the combo-lines that require multible monsters it can hardly be called a toolbox anymore.

-life points mattered. since you could trade life points for card advantage, those life points could be calced against CA to some degree. thats also why solemn judgement wasnt too popular on release and only really became good with 6sams.

[Silyon]

I just want to address a few things there.

Originally posted by cybercybercybercyber4:

-the cards left in the deck being resources just by not having been activated yet. For example if you had not activated heavy storm or torrential yet the opp had to pay respect to that. Which meant they couldnt yet overextend their backrow or their frontrow.

The idea of cards still in the deck mattering was one of the cornerstone arguments for why Pot of Desires wasn't great, because as cost it demanded you banish a quarter of your deck straight up. In the wrong deck or if you simply got unlucky, activating it can straight up kill the main engine in whatever your deck is. Especially if it's a lower-powered deck that doesn't have many starters to begin with.

Generally speaking, good deck building practice tries to avoid "sacky" cards in the first place. Sacky cards being defined as largely unsearchable one-card game changers like Heavy Storm or Torrential, or more modern variants like Lightning Storm and Evenly Matched. Depending on bail-outs like these in order to play is a losing proposition to begin with because you're effectively planning on being in a losing position and in need of luck to get yourself out of it. It's a better idea to think of what you need to do to keep from being put into such losing positions in the first place.

In other words, if your victory condition depends on resolving a card like Evenly Matched or Dark Ruler No More, then it's time to go back to the drawing board and figure out ways in which you don't need to lean on such cards.

Originally posted by cybercybercybercyber4:

-life points mattered. since you could trade life points for card advantage, those life points could be calced against CA to some degree. thats also why solemn judgement wasnt too popular on release and only really became good with 6sams.

Life points never mattered in YGO. If they did, Dian Keto, Poison of the Old Man, Spell Absorption, and Solemn Wishes would have been staple cards that many decks of the day would have made regular use of. Emergency Provisions and Mystic Wok only ever saw situational use as ways to out your own stuff, particularly floodgates, and the LP gain was nothing more than incidental. You will never gain enough LP to win the game without some other effects coming into play, so it's never more than a bonus to whatever the card actually does.

And that's the reason why some effect damage cards like Magic Cylinder and Ring of Destruction saw play. They could situationally win the game outright, but were still useful as attack negations or monster removal without the effect damage. Since Solemn Judgement specifically was mentioned, the excessive LP cost never factored into the card's usability. It didn't see use more because monsters themselves weren't powerful enough to warrant it. Judgement's primarily an out to monsters with dangerous "on-summon" effects you don't want to resolve, which didn't really exist back in the day, and monsters that are otherwise protected or resistant to standard removal options like Ring of Destruction. Sure, it can also be used to negate backrow which was the real threat in the day, but at that point you may as well be running Seven Tools of the Bandit or Magic Drain to the same effect. Which many people DID do.

[Kosm]

Yeah I used to play quite a bit of hearthstone. I found that there were a lot of unwinnable games that were decided on turn 1. I would usually lose on turn 6 against quest rogue, those 6 turns gave me the illusion that I had a chance to win, but in reality the game was already decided.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Oh yeah, if both players are slinging a full hand and half their deck onto the table then it hardly matters what the turn count is. That's our King of Games, baby!

[cybercybercybercyber4]

@silyon: ill reply to your post later. Got to work today, unfortunately.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Basically, people don't want "more interaction that happens in many turns", what they want is "the illusion of chance".

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by cybercybercybercyber4:

-the cards left in the deck being resources just by not having been activated yet. For example if you had not activated heavy storm or torrential yet the opp had to pay respect to that. Which meant they couldnt yet overextend their backrow or their frontrow.

-you had to plan turns ahead, you didnt just need take the cards in his hand and field into consideration but also the cards he might draw in the next 2-3 turns. finding the best possible move while almost taking the entire opps deck into consideration required quite some planning.

Those things still exist today, not for all decks, but they do. Decks like Sky Striker, Marincess, Runick variants (not stun), Labrynth, and more, still need that type of mentality, because despite the decks having some OTK lines, those aren't the usual win condition of the deck, but a grind game where they outresource you ending you.

And it's not like all decks in the past needed it either.

Take this video for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWv-9FH9s0

In this video, the guy shows a tournament final's duel, it's back in the good ol' days of the game, so how many turns do you think it took for the winner to win the whole thing? Probably 20? Nah, 10? Nah. 3. 3 turns total between 2 duels was all he needed. 1st duel he sacrificed a Sangan to grab a Cyber Stein so he can win the next turn, and in the 2nd duel he went second, and just OTKd out of the gate via Cyber Stein.

And there were many more similar decks, so it's not like "fine, only some decks in modern require you to plan for what the opponent might draw in the next few turns, but back in the day every deck needed that type of planning", because it wasn't the case.

Originally posted by cybercybercybercyber4:

-the deckout switch, sometimes games got to endgame where finding the correct moment to aim for a deckout instead of a battle phase win could decide the game.

No? Unless you were playing mill decks such as Empty Jar, in which case, if you get to that point, it means your FTK didn't work, otherwise, let's be honest, "oh, if I try for battle phase, I might win in 3 turns, but I'll go for deck-out and win in 15 turns" doesn't sound as something any smart player will do.

And even if we don't go that far back, if a game reaches a point where stalling a few turns to deck the opponent out rather than ending by battle phase is a viable strategy, it means something went extremely extremely bad, and it's not something that should happen 99% of the time.

Originally posted by cybercybercybercyber4:

-the extra deck toolbox, partially still exists but with all the combo-lines that require multible monsters it can hardly be called a toolbox anymore.

Again, depends on the deck, some decks are still toolboxes, such decks mostly fall as mid-range decks. Some decks like that are Branded (non-Gimmick Puppet lock), Virtual World, Tearlaments (depending on build), Sprights, Mikanko and more.

So yea, it depends on what deck you're playing, it can be a deck with a toolbox extra deck, but that it means it won't be a combo deck, but toolbox extra decks still exist and are seeing play and success.

Hell, Virtual World won the Spanish National not too long ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfwdWAFWK_A

And it also got top 16 at Switzerland National and a Cuba Regional.

So yea, decks with a toolbox extra deck still exist and are having success.

Originally posted by cybercybercybercyber4:

-life points mattered. since you could trade life points for card advantage, those life points could be calced against CA to some degree. thats also why solemn judgement wasnt too popular on release and only really became good with 6sams.

They didn't, players just had the wrong opinion that they did.

Solemn Judgment wasn't really used back in the Goat Format days, but when we look at decks topping Goat Format events now, we see it pop up a lot.

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/yugioh/deck/Chaos-Warrior/457785

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/yugioh/deck/Chaos-Turbo/457783

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/yugioh/deck/Chaos-Warrior/457782

Man that's a lot of Chaos...

[Merilirem]

While to an extent I do agree that turn counts do not matter to the amount of gameplay done, they do matter to the experience. The game is VERY different when it ends by turn 2 compared to it ending on turn 10+.

Having time to go through multiple phases and draw new cards just changes how the game feels. I for one much prefer that feeling even If I enjoy doing stuff. My ideal is when both players do a reasonable amount of stuff every turn but can't reliably win until turn 5 and are more likely to finish around 8-10.

Floodgates artificially increase turn count by removing the point of having multiple turns which is to do a bunch of stuff. What you really want is to be doing stuff for those turns, not being stuck unable to do anything but set and pass.

Also too much on turn 1 is an issue because the game isn't originally designed for simultaneous play. One person is always doing more unless you are playing very specific decks that don't play nice with decks that are trying to play the original Yugioh ways.

So turn count absolutely matter is the point because the game wasn't designed to be played how its evolved to play.

[TormentedSalad]

Depends on why there's only a few turns some of my favourite duels have only been a turn or two but I've had the same turn 2 games just be the result of the bug or super poly into OTK Mikanko kaiju snore fest ect.

It's never about the turns but what happens during them.