attn: anyone who whines about floodgates

[.]

just run mst

[¿¡Kloey!?²]

Mst is overrated. Be a cool kid and run cosmic cyclone.

[Tunnel Sharks Rule!!!]

You do realize MST has been powercrept for years by it's own card gimmick?

[.]

Originally posted by ¿¡Kloey!?²:

Mst is overrated. Be a cool kid and run cosmic cyclone.

You're right.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Garbage:

just run mst

It's crazy that this needs to be said to anyone who's played yugioh for more than 2 hours, but then again combo players would rather complain about floodgates when the solution is easily accessible to them.

Goes to show how "skilled" they are lol.

[Merilirem]

Maxx C has outs too. They don't make it any less terrible of a card. Its not about whether you can out a card. Its about whether the card is fun on a design level. The answer is no unfortunately. Floodgates are not a fun design for most players. This isn't debatable. The ones who enjoy floodgate decks are the minority. For the rest of us the game is so much more fun if we just don't play against floodgate players.

Especially in best of 1 where we can't side deck in counters and in any meta where backrow removal isn't useful most of the time.

[.]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Maxx C has outs too. They don't make it any less terrible of a card. Its not about whether you can out a card. Its about whether the card is fun on a design level. The answer is no unfortunately. Floodgates are not a fun design for most players. This isn't debatable. The ones who enjoy floodgate decks are the minority. For the rest of us the game is so much more fun if we just don't play against floodgate players.

Especially in best of 1 where we can't side deck in counters and in any meta where backrow removal isn't useful most of the time.

If the majority are combo players, then that majority shouldn't be regarded when it comes to the banlist.

It is debatable and you have just been debated. Mystic Mine never did anything wrong.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Garbage:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Maxx C has outs too. They don't make it any less terrible of a card. Its not about whether you can out a card. Its about whether the card is fun on a design level. The answer is no unfortunately. Floodgates are not a fun design for most players. This isn't debatable. The ones who enjoy floodgate decks are the minority. For the rest of us the game is so much more fun if we just don't play against floodgate players.

Especially in best of 1 where we can't side deck in counters and in any meta where backrow removal isn't useful most of the time.

If the majority are combo players, then that majority shouldn't be regarded when it comes to the banlist.

It is debatable and you have just been debated. Mystic Mine never did anything wrong.

This isn't about combo decks. Also you didn't debate my point. You just disregarded the people I said didn't enjoy floodgates. You basically accepted that they didn't enjoy floodgates which was the part that wasn't debatable.

Anyway the point is that from a design standpoint its more fun for people to being doing things than for them to be stopped from doing things. This means floodgates and negates are less fun by default than other forms of interruption or combo denial. stopping a combo by removing a key piece from the field is way more fun than simply saying no. Yes its less effective but that's not a bad thing in itself. You can balance around that to make it effective enough. When both players fight back and forth by actually doing things to each others cards its more fun than 1 player being told they can't do things.

Also the purpose of a banlist is to make the game as much fun as possible. Not to keep the most popular way of playing in check. Combo players use these same floodgates btw and they aren't fun then either. Also you ignored every other type of player. Control players exist you know and control is way more fun without floodgates.

[.]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Originally posted by Garbage:

If the majority are combo players, then that majority shouldn't be regarded when it comes to the banlist.

It is debatable and you have just been debated. Mystic Mine never did anything wrong.

This isn't about combo decks. Also you didn't debate my point. You just disregarded the people I said didn't enjoy floodgates. You basically accepted that they didn't enjoy floodgates which was the part that wasn't debatable.

Anyway the point is that from a design standpoint its more fun for people to being doing things than for them to be stopped from doing things. This means floodgates and negates are less fun by default than other forms of interruption or combo denial. stopping a combo by removing a key piece from the field is way more fun than simply saying no. Yes its less effective but that's not a bad thing in itself. You can balance around that to make it effective enough. When both players fight back and forth by actually doing things to each others cards its more fun than 1 player being told they can't do things.

Also the purpose of a banlist is to make the game as much fun as possible. Not to keep the most popular way of playing in check. Combo players use these same floodgates btw and they aren't fun then either. Also you ignored every other type of player. Control players exist you know and control is way more fun without floodgates.

The first turn should not last any longer than 1 minute. Combo decks enable exactly that. Combo decks therefore are the problem. I'll accept every floodgate getting hit to 0 if it means that there's a turn timer which ends after 30 seconds. 60 at its most generous.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Garbage:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

This isn't about combo decks. Also you didn't debate my point. You just disregarded the people I said didn't enjoy floodgates. You basically accepted that they didn't enjoy floodgates which was the part that wasn't debatable.

Anyway the point is that from a design standpoint its more fun for people to being doing things than for them to be stopped from doing things. This means floodgates and negates are less fun by default than other forms of interruption or combo denial. stopping a combo by removing a key piece from the field is way more fun than simply saying no. Yes its less effective but that's not a bad thing in itself. You can balance around that to make it effective enough. When both players fight back and forth by actually doing things to each others cards its more fun than 1 player being told they can't do things.

Also the purpose of a banlist is to make the game as much fun as possible. Not to keep the most popular way of playing in check. Combo players use these same floodgates btw and they aren't fun then either. Also you ignored every other type of player. Control players exist you know and control is way more fun without floodgates.

The first turn should not last any longer than 1 minute. Combo decks enable exactly that. Combo decks therefore are the problem. I'll accept every floodgate getting hit to 0 if it means that there's a turn timer which ends after 30 seconds. 60 at its most generous.

Then this discussion is over. 60 second turns have been tried and proven to be too short. If that is what you want then Yugioh will never be a game for you. Even Floodgate decks don't guarantee 1 minute turns.

[.]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Originally posted by Garbage:

The first turn should not last any longer than 1 minute. Combo decks enable exactly that. Combo decks therefore are the problem. I'll accept every floodgate getting hit to 0 if it means that there's a turn timer which ends after 30 seconds. 60 at its most generous.

Then this discussion is over. 60 second turns have been tried and proven to be too short. If that is what you want then Yugioh will never be a game for you. Even Floodgate decks don't guarantee 1 minute turns.

60 second turns have been tried, and the only people who ever lost were combo players. That means combo players aren't good enough at the game to end their turns faster.

Combo players need to stop gatekeeping the game from everyone else, and they should never be catered to again so long as this game exists.

[MancakeBR]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Maxx C has outs too. They don't make it any less terrible of a card. Its not about whether you can out a card. Its about whether the card is fun on a design level. The answer is no unfortunately. Floodgates are not a fun design for most players. This isn't debatable. The ones who enjoy floodgate decks are the minority. For the rest of us the game is so much more fun if we just don't play against floodgate players.

Especially in best of 1 where we can't side deck in counters and in any meta where backrow removal isn't useful most of the time.

Just saying, fun should never be a factor when it comes to balance.

Fun is too subjective. For example, I can find playing Floodgates fun and playing into floodgates fun while you don't.

What needs to be looked at is, what is it intending to stop? Is there a cost? What gamestate is created when you combine it with another floodgate? A great example of a card that should forever be banned is Imperial Order, when you combine this with other trap floodgates such as Skill Drain, it becomes far harder to break or even impossible to play through. (Though Trap Eater can literally out all floodgate traps and can probably be small world into, but that's beside the point).

[Sov]

Originally posted by Garbage:

just run mst

Ah but MST is not "Optimal" and not what the "netdecking guide said" and they'd have to think for themselves instead of copying their way to victory... Oh the humanity! Oh the horror!

[Filipino Enjoyer]

Originally posted by Garbage:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Then this discussion is over. 60 second turns have been tried and proven to be too short. If that is what you want then Yugioh will never be a game for you. Even Floodgate decks don't guarantee 1 minute turns.

60 second turns have been tried, and the only people who I ever lost to were combo players. That means combo players aren't good enough at the game to end their turns faster.

Combo players need to stop gatekeeping the game from everyone else, and they should never be catered to again so long as this game exists.

Bro if swoso can't even do it's thing in 60s it's too short, stop coping

[Filipino Enjoyer]

Originally posted by Vivas:

Originally posted by Garbage:

just run mst

Ah but MST is not "Optimal" and not what the "netdecking guide said" and they'd have to think for themselves instead of copying their way to victory... Oh the humanity! Oh the horror!

Dumb take tbh, mst isn't ran because it doesn't do enough, stop trying to pretend like it's because people net deck when 99% of every card game player net decks

[Filipino Enjoyer]

Originally posted by MancakeBR:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Maxx C has outs too. They don't make it any less terrible of a card. Its not about whether you can out a card. Its about whether the card is fun on a design level. The answer is no unfortunately. Floodgates are not a fun design for most players. This isn't debatable. The ones who enjoy floodgate decks are the minority. For the rest of us the game is so much more fun if we just don't play against floodgate players.

Especially in best of 1 where we can't side deck in counters and in any meta where backrow removal isn't useful most of the time.

Just saying, fun should never be a factor when it comes to balance.

Wrong you absolutely can balance around player sentiment, hearthstone does it and it's completely fine and players actually like it