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Thanks for taking what I said out of context. If you don't want to use your head to understand what I am saying, it's that this is a literally a simulator based on the physical card game so unless there are actual changes to the card game, you won't see it here. Every GAME, not just card game suffers from powercreep in it's own way, I can't use my zoroark break deck from pokemon tcg against mew vmax and I certainly can't use it on a legacy format where people will spam a bunch of other cards that are just as powerful. Instead of complaining that I can't play what I want or insulting the people who play like that on a legacy format, you know what I did? I took the time to construct and play a more updated deck. It's now about what I play, it's the fact that I am playing it and if people aren't happy with the current meta, they are free to leave, like I did that game.
You clearly weren't paying attention, they ALREADY tried that which shows how much you actually do know. That was Master Rule 4 (and in case you don't know, extra deck monsters could only be special summoned to extra deck zones or arrows that a link monster pointed to) and from my knowledge it was so disliked that we currently have this format in Master Rule 5 where as you can clearly see, it was changed. And reducing the time isn't going to fix the issue, you are only hurting new players who need to take their time to actually read cards and practice while I can guarantee the only people that really 'hurts' are people like adamancipator players whose gimmick is unfortunately a longer one to play out and even then veteran players will understand and know their deck well enough to play through the time anyway.
Toolbox monsters like baronne I agree should have never been released as generic, but at the same time I see it as a double edged sword. Giving players more tools to use to match different scenarios in my book is a plus but unfortunately the decks that can pump these monsters out is an issue in and of itself, you are free to disagree. This isn't a hill I am willing to die on.
The issue wasn't that mystic mine forced you to run spell or trap removal. The issue was that mystic mine was one of those cards that people complain about now that if you don't draw the out, you are screwed. It's a card that literally stops you from playing the game until someone draws removal or replaces it with another field spell card when they are ready, stalling the game out to an unbearable degree. I think that's toxic game design right there. A card that stops you from drawing a potentially important piece (that better players and better decks can play through anyway) or stop a fusion like Branded or Dinomorphia can indeed be game winning on it's own and as a player you need to be able to play around it and if you are unable to, that's unfortunately the nature of card games. At least in this simulator you can get a feel out of your opponents cards unlike in the physical medium and react accordingly but the difference between hand traps and mystic mine is that mystic mine; i'll say again, LITERALLY STOPS YOU FROM PLAYING THE GAME WHICH IS FAR MORE TOXIC. Maxx C is also a card I can't defend, it's an incredibly strong card that needed more restrictions tied to it like the number you can draw and/or being unable to use it if you control more cards than your opponent and you can either have an answer to it, play through it or shorten your turn which I don't think is good game design either. People say "it helps you stop combo decks" yeah but what if that combo deck plays on turn 1 and at the start of your turn drops a maxx c that even if you have an answer to, more than likely they may have a negate for that negate. again that's just the nature of card games about not having what you need when you need it sometimes.
I disagree, the issue is because people like you don't actually see Yugioh for what it has become and understand that just because you can, doesn't mean you should. You can play battlin boxers. Doesn't mean you should. I can play Labrynth (which I don't). Doesn't mean I should. Any player can play any deck that they want throughout Yugioh's history. It doesn't mean they should.
The point I am getting at is you don't have to put up with it, your life does not revolve around this game nor is tied to it. There are other games on the market that fulfill plenty of niches and Yugioh has become a niche of card slinging board maker and breaker kind of game. I like how Yugioh plays now, doesn't mean that I nor anyone else sees the issues that are currently in the game. We realize that saying it needs to be fixed is far easier than actually fixing it cause where do you go from here? The game is in such a state that unless you take away people's investments which will hurt your market, all you can really do is add more strong options and with how many tools are available for people to find and use, something is going to go awry.
Let me go on a tangent here, you can read it if you want. If you think I am one of those players, I often refuse to play meta cause it usually doesn't interest me (except the recent case of purrely cause I like their aesthetic and the fact they are just better super quant which was one of my favorite decks back in the day). I often play rogue strategies like Punk, Dinomorphia, Beetrooper, and Unchained to name a few. I was for a period of time playing runick fure hire not because of runick, but because I have been trying for YEARS to play fur hire to some degree. And just because I have and made a penguin deck out of my own pleasure and free will, doesn't mean that I am going to win with it and I accept that and I save it for when I can do a mutual casual game with friends, I am not going to expect a random stranger to pull any punches in how they play a game and you shouldn't either. I'll even use Duel Links as an example. when the support for Blue Eyes came out and everyone was running Chaos Dragon Levianeer & Blue Eyes, I was playing Yosenju and used a card that everyone was calling bad at the time (Utopia Ray) to achieve a massive win streak in the qualifiers despite my rogue strategy not even being considered a top tier deck.
And when unchained gets it's support and becomes potentially meta, are you then going to shame unchained players when everyone starts playing it? You see how weak that argument is about complaining about what people play? I've agreed that Konami should have done a better job releasing these cards in a more nerfed state in terms of limiting like they did with adventure. And to further on my point with other games I play, am I going to complain that Snorlax isn't as strong as some of the other newer defenders in pokemon unite? I could, but that doesn't stop me from using him and still seeing success and even if I lose I am not going to blame the next person for picking the better option. I can't complain that Nasus in league of legends isn't as 'good' as the other options in the game and if I lose I am not going to blame others for picking a better option. Treating people who play newer and unfortunately better options or lesser options as bad people is ONE of the main reasons why that community is so toxic.
When I tried to recently get back into Pokemon TCG, I was having win streaks and those win streaks turned into loss streaks with a 0% winrate against a mew vmax deck that was one of the strongest decks in the format that they literally gave for free so EVERYONE was running it. Instead of running it, I built me a zeraora vmax and star deck to try and specifically counter it that would still hold it's own with a relatively decent strategy, still couldn't beat it. So you know what I did? Insult the people playing the deck? No. Played any of the meta decks that weren't as strong but COULD compete? No, cause I didn't want to. I stopped playing and maybe one day I will return when a deck I enjoy playing and want to play is strong enough to compete. I am not defending the status quo, you can check my previous posts and while I hardly believe Konami will listen and add new formats, I for one embrace the idea of having formats like GOAT and Edison to some degree for players that want to experience the game how it was before. The "status quo" is constantly shifting and I think being regressive in order to 'fix' it doesn't solve really anything except the minority who like I've been saying before, don't want to adapt to how the game is now and will continue to be.
Don't strawman me, I never said the meta knight player has to suck in order for the ganon to win. Way to actually miss my point that even though the ganon player has to try harder, it doesn't make it impossible to win so at least we agree on that. And again, stop insulting what people play. Cause in the future if elementsabers became meta, would you call those players idiots?
There is actual skill to this game. Take an actual look at high level tournaments and you'll see clear deliberate plays in order to actually maneuver around their opponents. In fact one of a recent tournaments about 3 weeks ago that was hosted by Dkayed has a player that mostly if not strictly plays Thunder Dragons in these tournaments that made it into the top 16 and it's inspired me to try and build and play that in the future. There's no formula for balance in a card game. Every deck does it's own thing in a variety of different ways. Is balance not having any negates? Is balance not having any floodgates? Is balance not summoning towers? If that's the case there are many other card games in the market that don't have these things and even then you would hardly find that they themselves are universally agreed to be "balanced". Please, tell me what would make a deck balanced, what should it have and what shouldn't it have? I want to understand what you mean instead of using a blanket term like that cause without any metrics, it's an empty fallacy.
I am telling you to get over yourself cause you want to sit there and call me and another user idiots when at first I was half jokingly agreeing with you cause people who will say there's absolutely nothing wrong with the game is just wrong and people who say the game is bad because it "wasn't like it was" is in my honest opinion, also wrong because even back then, yugioh had it's issues. Your retorts have very little to no substance on the state of the game and just because you REFUSE to see mine doesn't make them any less valid points as you clearly are misrepresenting the points I been making. And the issue is the fact that they ARE simple. You can not just change one little thing and expect the game to be "balanced" as you put it. It could certainly make the game healthier, yes, but striving for complete balance in a game like this a greater task then just saying "Ban broken cards. Ban broken archetypes. Make the decks I like better. Stop people from special summoning so much (which can and will kill some older decks). Lower the time!" doesn't actually answer anything cause you know what's going to happen? The same handful of decks are stilllll going to be played, a new meta will form and people will, like people do, complain about it and continue to use blanket statements to take away everything until nothing is left and we go no where and the game will stagnate and die cause releasing ANYTHING may upset that balance you keep wanting to strive for.
Excuse me for wanting to discuss some actual feedback and an actual idea on a discussion forum.
What exactly do they take away? Do they take away the spirit of yugioh? The spirit hasn't changed. Do they take away the potential for other decks to thrive? Unfortunately that's how metas in every game works, as my previous example I do not expect to bring a pokemon tcg or a MTG deck from 5-10 years ago and expect it to compete on the same level as decks do now, not that they will allow me with their rotations. It's the fact Konami allows you to play what you want without any set rotation is both a blessing and a curse. Do they take away from the fun of the game? To those who aren't fans of the style of play Yugioh has become and like I previously mentioned, there are many more games in the market, you aren't stuck to Yugioh if you just want to play the game. All people like you have suggested is to take away what we currently have cause they think the game is too hard or complicated now. One sided? Yeah I can't argue with that as this is a game where one sided match ups can happen. And I'll say this, stop using mystic mine as an example, it's a poor one. Don't compare an interaction and interference to a floodgate that completely stops you from playing the game for an indefinite amount of time.
It's perfectly reasonable to be unhappy with the state of the game but it's unreasonable to sit there and insult the people who try to enjoy it in their own way DESPITE the issues present. Do not rope me in as someone that plays meta for cheap and easy wins, I am a player that plays decks that put me at some kind of disadvantage and still see a GREAT deal of success with because I know what I am doing because instead of complaining, I improved and I adapted. i still mess up, I still make mistakes but instead of blaming people for playing an arguably better deck, I learn from the experience to do better. I have played numerous amounts of card games through the years, pokemon tcg, shadowverse, hearthstone, duel links, infinity wars, duel links, magic the gathering so I KNOW what I am talking about in respect to card games, that's not ego, that's just experience in the market. Ego is insulting other people because you don't like how they play and I'll admit, I USED to be like that a long long time ago in a completely unrelated game but instead of going on forums I used that frustration to create memes that were satire to talk about the state of the game but that's a whole other story.
The best I can do is use my experience to bring a perspective to the table to help people think outside of their own bias bubble and help them enjoy not just yugioh, but the market as a whole and to understand things they may not think about right away. I say do better and be better cause I promote self improvement instead of insulting and stripping away what's present. Do better be better is just as much of a blanket statement as much as "fix the game" is but at least I am trying to encourage others to be better instead of tearing down others.
I've actually provided sound arguments, statements and examples. You've just strawman'd me, taken my points in bad faith and literally provided only a little more than insults to people playing what they want to play or complaining that people aren't playing everything no matter how good it is or not in a ladder. It's on Konami to fix these issues like adding different formats, adding rush duel, create new ways to enjoy yugioh in different ways instead of creating these alternative ways to enjoy the IP that your wallet can have an impact on and I can almost guarantee you I doubt they actually take a look in places like these. I would like to be proven wrong on that though. You may be right that I am not considering balance in a nuanced way, because nuance is not what's going to make this game healthy, nuance is not what's going to make as many people happy, nuance is a way to want more without putting in more. I don't want your respect nor do I need your respect, all I want is for you to think outside of your own biases and have common decency in respect to others. But you at least somewhat read what I posted and actually had a discussion which is more than I can often say that happens so you have some of my respect, as little as I am sure that means to you.
Edit: Also before you or anyone even tries to make the argument, no, banlists do not strip away from the game. Yes they may make cards banned and unplayable but there's usually a good reason for it to some degree.... usually. But once things change and the game updates, there's always the opportunity for those cards to become playable again, it's not stripping, it's adjusting the current game state while keeping it intact which is far more reasonable then banning things you don't like to play against indefinitely.
i'm returning player and im trying to learn swordsoul, i lost a couple games due to time out and i'm not complete noob when it comes to ygo or card games in general, since you not only need to read your cards but also opponent to plan strategy, that are wall of text.
and is not like i'm playing it only in ranked. reduction of timer would only hurt very niche group of players that have hardcore solitaire decks like cardians, maybe dark world.
honestly there should be mode where you can train with whatever cards you like since to learn game you need to know how the opponent deck work as well, the main complain about certain deck also comes from people that don't know how the deck work, they don't know the combo they don't know what cards are core in the engine, so they can't stop it.
but they should, because the game isn't easy to learn and new players won't enjoy it if they don't have time to read cards during the match. and that's also why people play brain off decks like Labrynth, you still have to know when to activate cards, but it feels cleaner and more transparent than tons of combo layers on top of combo layers.
the old formats are at least enjoyable for the generic player, who isn't super nerd who knows every interaction, every answer and every combo.
of all the ygo i played, i enjoyed vanilla duel links the most, about 10 first boxes up to glad beasts, since they were cancer.
if they don't plan to add more modes, they could at least consider adding ranked bo3. mtga has a choice between bo1 and bo3, so if the competition can do it, why can't they? when i play bo1 in mtga, i don't even take it seriously, i just play a one trick pony deck with 2 monsters for a quick games.
mtg also has starter deck mode, the "jump in" mode, where you shuffle pre-made packs into a thin deck.
dota 2 for example is a complex moba (action strategy game) with tons of interactions, it has a beginner mode, it has a "lite" mode. single player tutorials about outdated cards that nobody plays anymore are fun for lore purposes but doesn't make the game more accessible.
Power creep is a problem Konami is going to have to deal with at some point as summoning multiple resources off one card at the start of the game is just toxic, not even pendulums could do that at the height of their power.
Yeah, I've said this before but the new player experience is absolutely horrendous as it does not prepare you to play in the modern format at ALL. It needs to be better in so many ways. I also think adding duel quizzes for modern day solutions to help players understand interactions better would also be a fun way to learn that can be rewarded just like Duel Links does. Unfortunately the only way to test decks and combos is solo mode but it doesn't actually help you learn how to deal with different interruptions or interactions which will require more thought into how you go about your combos.
I agree they should, I always want companies to do more instead of less but until they do I try to recommend alternatives like other free simulators to help people play this game however they feel like since Konami isn't doing it themselves. And if people start transitioning to those simulators cause they get fed up with Master Duel, good, give them a reason to do better with their product instead of being so lackadaisical with it. Worst they can do is cease and desist them and piss off their community on a wide scale. As someone who has so much time playing duel links both on steam and on mobile I also agree Duel Links in it's infancy was a breath of fresh air and it most certainly helped me get back into the game and gave me the experience to be a better duelist like I am now. It's unfortunate that with the game now, newer players won't have that same experience.
I didn't disagree with you, I think making ranked a Bo3 overall is a fantastic idea to make it more official like the card game with the option of a side deck and everything and just keep casual as the Bo1 format where you can still get rewards. The only reason why I think they don't is to make it more streamlined for mobile devices and consoles or something which I think is ridiculous. I also think, just like pkmn tcg, and mtg, having a mode where you just play starter decks is a wonderful idea as well and make previous starter decks through the years accessible or make more curated decks for some less strong but well supported archetypes to help people starting fresh to get a head start on building a variety of decks.
The issue isn't that they refuse to adapt, the issue is the newer cards are flat out better than the old cards because they're overtuned. You simply can't use older archetypes because they're too weak, or more accurately newer cards are completely busted. If the newer cards that are broken would be nerfed, more cards would be usable genius.
Stupid retorts get stupid responses, erratas and banlists are a thing in the physical game as well so your point is moot.
And good for you, Pokemon isn't Yugioh and is handled very differently. That's something even you should know.
You said they limited extra deck summons, not that they were limited to the extra monster zone you tard. But if that's the case is a good example of Yugioh players having an ass backwards view on balance like I mentioned.
Both are issues with the latter exacerbating the former, and it's a good thing you're not willing to die on that dumb hill.
Again, same could be said for any floodgate.
It's not about where or not you "should use cards", it's that the new ones are broken to the point older cards don't stand a chance. How many ways are you going to try justifying why older cards being borderline unusable in yugioh is fine without admitting that's what you're arguing for?
What a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ take, just because "my life doesn't revolve around it" (which neither does yous btw) doesn't mean that I or anyone can't point out what's wrong with it. You can't fix something or make it better by living in la la land and ignoring what flaws it has.
Oh yeah, sure you do. I totally believe you generic Yugio fan #3884974596979222279, you're totally not like the other generic Yugioh fans.
I've heard the "I play it for the aesthetic/because I like them" excuse before, if you're trying to prove you aren't the same as the rest you're doing the opposite.
It's the truth, and people who abuse meta decks for easy wins rightly get ♥♥♥♥ by people who are tired of it. The toxicity comes from people sick of the abysmal balancing of new cards and idiots defending it because "muh modern Yugioh".
You're defending the status quo right now with your mental gymnastics comparing anecdotes on a completely different card game to Yugioh Your strawman is idiotic, people are tired of the same broken decks and want them curtailed so that older archetypes can have a fighting chance and more decks can flourish. The fact that only a handful of decks are actively used in ranked when Yugioh has ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dozens is proof of this issue.
I wasn't strawmanning you, if anything I was pointing out the sole instance where you'd be right. On equal grounds where luck, skill, and user error aren't a factor Ganon has no chance against Meta, that's not even up for debate.
I didn't miss your point, your point was delusional and hinges on the idea Ganon being flat out better than the Meta. The insults are completely warranted, especially when you're defending meta garbage by insinuating that weaker decks/characters have a chance against stronger picks which they only do if there's a massive skill gap favoring Ganon.
I bet every single one of those "high level" tournaments has people using handtraps, broken archetypes, and other garbage. It's only fallacious to someone deluded enough to do all these mental gymnastics to argue why clearly blatantly overpowered caards and archetypes are perfectly ok but fine, here's your "metrics".
A deck should have clear strengths and weaknesses, be it lacking in an area, a drawback to its effects, or a counter that can be exploited. A personal favorite example of mine is Rose Dragon, it has excellent destruction and quite a bit of lockdown but carries with the cost of destroying your own cards as well. It's level 7 boss monsters are a weaker compared to others, but it makes up for it with it's effects. It's strongest monster, Ruddy Rose Dragon, perfectly encapsulates this by banishing all monsters in both graveyards, which can be either a game ender or dire mistake depending on the board state and the deck you're up against.
Another example of a pretty well designed deck is Eldlich, a deck I frankly had no interest in building initially. The boss monster is a crucial component that needs to be on board to make the most out of the Golden Land traps, without it most are just mediocre monsters who at best are walls to bide some time to counterattack with an Eldlixir.
Yugioh has far, far too many decks where there's no thought needed to play a card. Card games, not just Yugioh, lack in the mental aspect of cards that are incredibly enjoyable. Not just what card to play but when, timing a summon or activation just right.
That's why cards like Ash, Maxx, and these modern decks that are low risk high reward are an issue, it takes away the best forms of skill from a card game: Clever thinking, good timing, and outwitting your opponent. What's the point in trying to capitalize on a card's usage when there's no drawback to using it? What's the risk when using it at all will put you ahead? Why think about what you do when the worst than can happen is a suboptimal play? Might as well just dump your hand and beat down your opponent before they can, as they say, draw the out in the one maybe two turns they have left to live. That's the issue with Yugioh.
There are other issues like boss monsters being used outside of their archetype because they're strong and take generic material like Accesscode Talker and DPE, but the biggest issue is just the lack of risk and thought needed for meta decks. It's a shame, because the few moments where it's down to the wire are some of the best moments not just in Yugioh but in any card game I've played. It's thanks to players defending the abysmal state of Yugioh that it's less of a pitched battle and more of a glorified game of solitaire where you're unable to do anything if your deck doesn't have as many broken cards, players like you.
That's also why I don't have an issue with Infinite Impermanence, Evenly Matched, or Mystic Mine. They're very strong and annoying to deal with but only benefit the player who's behind. Cards like Dark Hole and Dimensional Rift will harm you just as much unless you've accounted for their drawbacks or aren't at risk. Errataing Ash and Maxx with my proposed downsides were so that they'd have the drawbacks they lacked, because they'd be a lot more fine if there was a genuine cost to using them.
Hopefully that clears things up for you, but I doubt it because you're just another of the countless others in this community of drones who's sole purpose is to browbeat and sneer at anyone that dares to think the game could be better. Why should cards that have trivial downsides with huge upsides be brought down? After all, it's just a "skill issue" to players like you. How tiresome...
No.
Besides I don't insult people for playing the game, I insult them for the stupid ♥♥♥♥ they say. Yugioh unfortunately has two main groups of players; people who think the current balance is fine and people with brains.
It's not "sociopathic" to insult others, and knowing how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things are currently isn't due to nostalgia or "refusing to have self growth".
If the truth hurts you that much, you need to get a grip.
I don't refuse to see them, they're mentally deficient takes that range from utter garbage to flat out delusion. I'm not "misrepresenting" you, you're babbling like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ child and arguing against a stance that people aren't taking.
No one is arguing for complete balance you imbecile, this is exactly what I was talking about in the previous point.
Name five.
That's fallacious garbage and you know it, nerfing a handful of decks will give way for more to flourish.
You don't want actual feedback or an actual idea, you want to blindly defend your benevolent game devs and your perfect card game from people who are sick that a majority of games are against the same broken decks. Be honest with yourself, it's the least you can do.
You don't expect it because you're content with the garbage meta we have now, you honestly think that there's no point to nerfing meta decks because it'll just be the same with other decks when that's simply not the case. By nerfing the most overpowered deks you bring the average power level of viable decks down allowing more to reach it, that's what happens when overperforming outliers in power are excised.
By "fans of the style of play" you mean "anyone not abusing broken meta decks" then sure, the issue is you're conflating the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ balance of modern yugioh as a quirk of the games "playstyle" when you can have a better experience if it was better balanced.
If you think that you're incredibly dense, because that's what meta decks do. People want to take away the proverbial plug that will allow more decks to flow well. You may as well be equating blood clot removal to lobotomy by your ♥♥♥♥♥♥ logic.
It's a good example because it's much easier to deal with and only applies to the prson ahead (which includes yourself), yet Yugioh fanboys like yourself will argue that's broken but other cards that are flat out stronger without the downsides are perfectly fine. If anything it's the best card for summing up everything wrong with the Yugioh community, because it pisses people off because it's the quintessential anti-curbstomp card.
No it isn't, what is unreasonable is arguing that we shouldn't want better balance because people should just adapt as they sit on their high horse powered my crutching on meta cards all the time.
Your attempt to flex and pretend you're good at the game and know what you're talking would be more impressive if it was actually believable, but you already destroyed your credibility by spouting about how the player should adapt to the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ balance when you can easily see the sorry state if you opened your eyes.
Pfft, "bias bubble". It's not an issue with learning, so you're providing quite literally nothing with your chattering.
Well I'd like the game to improve, you can't improve anything without pointing out what's wrong first. Since you love self improvement so much, you should try improving your critical thinking skills.
No you didn't, and I've clearly shown that.
Actually I took your points, which were either based on nothing, blaming the player for not using meta, or ironically arguing against a strawman and put on full display what a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke you are.
Konami isn't getting a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dime from me until they fix the game, and based on your rambling and laughable attempts to pass off your narcissistic rambling as "well reasoned" I doubt that.
Nuance is necessary, not just in balance but in life. Nuance is not looking at things in black and white, and your view on it shows how naive you truly are.
Oh it truly warms my cold, dead, black heart. /s
Banning things indefinitely has been a thing since the banlist was conceived, pot of greed has been indefinitely banned along with Deliquent Duo, Graceful Charity, and all manner of other cards, thinking that balancing broken cards is taking away and but banlists aren't are contradictory viewpoints.
Edit: Sorry I see you fixed that up.
I do not think most of the hand traps in the game are as problematic as you are making them out to be but we can agree to disagree there. There are some cards like Maxx C like I stated that should 100% have tighter restrictions on it. And no, not all of these high level tournaments have broken archetypes, the one I mentioned before in that tournament had Orcus, Mathmech, Exosister, Runick Naturia (whether or not you think Runick is powerful it has a clear strength and a clear weakness by your standards with their field spell. I don't particularly like it myself just so we are also clear on that.), Chaos Thunder Dragon, Dinos,
scareclaw, Rikka, decks that when piloted by the right person can see success in the sea of people using these decks people like you think are too overpowered. In fact very recently Madolche was seeing some success in it's own right during tournament play and was considered meta by MDM's metrics where people are serious about winning cause of the literal money incentive to win. The people using them understand the card game better than you and I and that's why they are professionals.
Okay, I understand more of where you are coming from now, thank you. My counter argument to that is usually these decks are good in their own right but usually the ones that see the most success are the ones that are often paired with other archetypes. I personally do not think tearlaments if they were released closed to ishizu wouldn't have been as bad but because they were, the game was flooded with that deck in particular and I'll admit, it wasn't fun despite people claiming "well the mirror is actually very interactive", okay, maybe the mirror is but what about it against everything else and usually no one can defend it after that point, usually.
And I think it's disingenuous to think that Yugioh does not require proper timing anymore. As I previously stated I have played around my opponents with relatively fragile archetypes and still see success in my rogue strategies. I don't expect to be winning with battlin boxers or war rocks any time soon but that doesn't make other players any less of players cause they choose not to play those decks. I also don't expect some other decks I made like Ghoti to be incredibly powerful either but I still have them for mutual duels between people I know. I would not be winning as much as I have if I just played my cards without any thought. Also let's be real here, I do not remember if eldlich was ever considered 'meta' but most people were running it with a ton of floodgates and it was widely seen as one of the most hated decks because of it because there was no thought behind set 5, summon eldlich, activate floodgate, pop x with x trap card with the sheer intention of stopping you from playing the game as much as they can not unlike mystic mine though the clear obvious solution would be to run more backrow removal but with how sporadic the matchup is in a bo1 format, it's not reliable with many other decks never really needing to use trap cards that aren't fast enough to be used in response to removal.
That isn't to say I am against floodgates either, my dinomorphia deck which revolves around me having the least amount of life points as possible has a floodgate that revolves around me having the least amount and stops the activation of monsters with equal to or less on the field but it doesn't stop my opponent from activating cards in the hand or graveyard and it doesn't have any protection outside of whatever backrow I may have. The fact I have a 3k floodgate on the field to some people would seem broken despite all of the hoops I had to go through and set up to get there. Not to mention that deck is incredibly vulnerable to Ash as well but I don't complain about it nor complain about my opponent using it, I play through it and see how far I can go despite it. If my opponent didn't have Ash I could set up with my potential floodgate with a ton of powerful backrow that uses my life points in order to activate which is not only a cost but also my win condition. You don't see anybody complaining about dinomorphia but in it's own bubble people could look at a deck like that and call it overtuned and overpowered.
That is indeed the issue of Yugioh, if you are unable to break your opponents board or survive until you do it's already game over and the game has become so fast paced that it is indeed the state of how things are. Again I disagree about the lack of outwitting an opponent. Ima bring out another example, when I was playing runick fur hire against the reign of tearlaments, one of the best ways for me to counter their boss monster Kaleido-Heart was to power through whatever they threw at me to put me in a state where I could donpa -> dyna in the same chain link to banish it before it's effect popped off and usually the other player doesn't stick around after that. Could I always get to that point? No. Did I always win? No. I can't win em all and I don't expect to.
When I recently played the xyz event and fought against a turn 1 kashtira board with included negates from invoked mechaba when I was playing dinomorphia (i havn't played since then since I am waiting for things to reset and I don't play this game as often anymore.) I, once again had to maneuver around my opponent in order to bring out my floodgate and use it's effect wisely in order to win by activating it in the draw phase before their Shangri-Ira could activate. Now to be fair, I was able to get a few extra cards because of Maxx C which made things a TINY bit easier as it didn't deter my opponent to set up a pretty powerful board with a few more cards anyway but I am sure even without it I may have stood a chance if I played my cards right. There are a number of interactions and ways that a deck can power through and beat powerful top tier meta decks, I unfortunately can only speak from personal experience in that regard as many players may have gone about their plays differently but if you choose to play a deck that don't have those options and you refuse to use the tools that you have access to in the form of handtraps to help, then that's on you, not the rest of the player base.
Do not rope me into players like that just because I simply disagree with your exaggeration and clear bias against the current state of the meta game. And it's not the players fault the game is like this, it's Konami for pushing the game in that direction. If Konami really wanted to, tomorrow they could release a whole new format in a way that no one wants, no one is happy with and that ultimately may spell the death of the game and if it does, no skin off my nose. Did you think I was happy when DPE was everywhere? Do you think I was happy when everyone was running adventure? Do you think I was happy when halq was practically in every deck? Regardless on if I was or not (spoiler alert, I wasn't), I did my best to play accordingly in anticipation for those types of cards to show up because they were so prominent. Like I said, I agree with you that some of these generic boss monsters should have had more restrictions to their summoning conditions but I am also of the mind that giving people more tools to fix different scenarios is both a blessing and a curse. And again, I can only speak for myself, even with how little I play nowadays I still tend to have those down to the wire games if my opponent sticks them out. Do they happen often? Not as often as I'd like unfortunately cause I like a good back and forth game where it's anyone's game.
The issue with cards like dimensional rift, mystic mine and dimension shifter is they are often played by decks that do not care in the slightest on their negatives and in fact benefit from them. You can run sky strikers with mystic mine and just attack past your opponent through multiple turns with Hayate while they just have to sit there and take it, you can put one-two monsters down in a trap focused deck to floodgate your opponent for no cost with altergeist that you can activate at the end of your turn, the decks that ran that card didn't care if you needed less monsters than your opponent does, cause they didn't need to, it wasn't a detriment, it was a minor inconvenience at best. Or heaven forbid someone plays mystic mine in attempt to scum their opponent out with a time loss in the physical medium. Decks that often run dimensional fissure or dimension shifter often do not care about having their cards banished or it's just a powerful turn 2 card where you have a deck that doesn't have to commit to the graveyard which is why archetypes like Floo were so powerful despite their removal of their floodgate when tearlaments were in full stride. Again, I do not disagree that there should have been a cost to these cards especially stuff like Maxx C. I think personally think Ash by itself is fine, its a net neutral exchange where both you and your opponent are -1 and is more powerful against decks like branded, even more now that their fusion card is limited to 1. The yo-kai girls all do different things depending on the situation and one of the main reasons why ash is so widely used is because Maxx C is so prominent; Maxx C is just a problematic card that had it's time in the spotlight for far too long. In fact I personally hate cards that force you to be unable to react like super polymerization, I hate decks that take forever on turn 1 and then when it's turn 2 in your standby phase they basically have a second turn to set up more and take just as long as their first, but that's just a personal gripe. I am not going to call players toxic, or any matter of insults cause that's not their fault the deck is built like that, it's Konami for allowing a strategy to be released like that in the first place.
That does clear things up for me and I can now better understand your points and the issues you have with the game instead of "X archetype is too strong." See I don't disagree with you on the fact that decks should have a clear strength and weakness, the thing about this game, about yugioh in general is that a lot of these top tier decks don't often play by just itself. Tearlaments would not have nearly been as impactful if not for the Ishizu cards. And now that the era of released Ishizu is over we are continuing to see hits to make way for new decks to rise (which in an of itself is a frustrating market strategy). Like I said before I rather them limit stuff they already KNOW is just powerful for the meta game and adjust it afterwards then full releasing it and having us put up with it cause it's not like the power of these decks are a surprise when they release in Master Duel. The issue isn't that people in this community sneer at people who think the game could be better, they sneer at people who WANT the game to be better FOR THEM without taking into consideration how other people play and enjoy the game and if others actually have fun cause people do not think outside of their own bubble cause if they aren't having fun, then how is anyone else having fun and have the audacity to take their anger and frustrations out on others cause that's the easiest thing to do. People often want to go back to playground yugioh, or imagine yugioh as nothing more than the anime and video games where every single person has their own signature style of deck that they wear on sleeve but that's not the reality of games in general. It just isn't and I am sorry that that fantasy world doesn't exist where everyone can collectively come together every single time to play in such a way in every single competitive game, it's happened before a few times where a community can come together like that but it's naive to believe that it will happen more times than not.
This is a card game that's been going on since 1999 and the strategy on how they designed their cards from back then to now has understandably gradually evolved into the state it is now and instead of turning back progress we should be looking to find new ways to make it better and enjoy it and something as rudimentary as banning select different archetypes or decks regardless on how much people might actually enjoy playing those decks regardless of how powerful it is is not going to solve the problem. Banning generic boss monsters isn't going to solve the problem. Banning all the generic cards that strengthen other decks like magician souls and elemental hero neus alius isn't going to solve the problem. Instead of saying to get rid of the new, we should have more focus on giving more support to the old more then the occasional one or two they release every few years. Add a whole new playset to these archetypes with better effects than previously so that playstyle can thrive in the current environment instead of stripping EVERYTHING down to a basic level to where releasing any new content is just going to upset things in some way or fashion. Cause let's face, not every deck is good, not every strategy is great, but tearing everything down in my opinion is not the way to go about things and while we can strive to make the game healthier, I do not think the game will ever truly be universally agreed upon to be balanced in the way you want it to be balanced and like I've said it before, you are free to disagree. Just don't sit there and be upset at people playing a game.
I am using examples from other card games as if it were treated like Yugioh cause unlike Yugioh we don't have set rotations and if we did we probably wouldn't be having this discussion as the card pool would be mostly curated to where you wouldn't even be able to play some of these weaker decks to begin with because they aren't as powerful. That's where I was getting at.
Forgive me if I caused some confusion on my end. Yes MR4 made it so you can only special summon to the extra monster zone or a spot a link monster pointed to in a way to promote a new mechanic. If you want to see how that works I think Link Evolution still follows those rules, you can play that if you want /s.
Yeah I mean that's just another agree to disagree thing right there, I enjoy having more options at my disposal.
No, your point was mystic mine in general, considering you used to play eldlich I can maybe see why you don't have a problem with them. I don't like em, but I am not going to hurl insults at you for playing them.
Unfortuantely that's how just the nature of some long running games, I gave a few examples of games that have been out for a long time where powercreep is present. It's hard to keep making stuff that's new and creative that isn't outright busted or absolutely useless and I won't sit here and pretend like I am expert who could do better in managing that.
You can point out what's wrong with it, people are free to disagree with you. This is a discussion forum, not a feedback forum. But saying that people aren't allowed to disagree cause if they do they are just stupid and wrong is not productive. I've agreed with you on some of the flaws on this game, its how we choose to fix it is where we ultimately disagree.
You don't know me, I don't know you. You can take what I say at face value or don't, you are more than free to either way but I know what I play, I know what I enjoy doing.
No, no it's not okay to do that. What makes your version of fun more valid than theirs who enjoy modern yugioh? Like I said I been there with an unrelated game a very long time ago about people who played the best when there were no stakes and no ladders or anything. I've since then matured and blame the companies and balance teams for bringing out such a mess in the first place. It's on Konami to add support for the playerbase that is clearly present in support of playing older formats and trying to dismantle the current one to suit your personal desires is selfish.
I give examples of other games that balancing issues and powercreep, your main two arguments are present in other games, not just Yugioh. There are over 300 different archetypes in Yugioh, how many of those archetypes can you reasonably say should be playable to make things balanced and what would it exactly take for those to be playable instead of things resulting to the same handful of decks being mostly played anyway.
You said I was arguing that the meta knight player has to suck, no that's not what I am getting at. The ganondorf player has to understand his tools and the matchup just like the meta knight player has to as well, it may be easier for the meta knight to win but it's not impossible for ganondorf to win, that's the analogy I was going for, that even if something isn't as powerful, as long as your individual skill can make up for that difference you can play whatever you want in most cases.
Each game requires a certain set of skills, if you're just better you're just better. It doesn't mean the other person sucks. "I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times" and all that jazz.
See, that right there. Insulting people because they are able to enjoy the current state of the game and it is. Now I could be wrong but I am pretty sure I said borderline sociopathic behavior, I could be wrong I do not feel like combing through all of this for it lmao. You could have simply said people who think the current balance is fine and people who don't, it's that simple. Imagine me calling people like you braindead because I simply disagree with you. And you can check quite a number of topis on this forum that often revolve around 'this isn't the yugioh that I know/remember'.
Just like you were agreeing (albeit saying I am making a point I wasn't making), I was agreeing with you. There are definitely some stupid takes on both sides and I am not blind to that.
It's a stance you aren't taking cause you don't want to.
@Ignister, blackwing, cardian, crystal beast, D/D/, Burning Abyss, Dark World, Dinosaurs, Fabled, Fire Fist, Lunalight, Lyrilusc, Madolche, Heroes, Salamangreat, Speedroid, SPYRAL, Super Quant, Super Heavy, Wind-Up are all decks that are relatively aged that I can think of that special summon both main deck and extra deck monsters quite a bit, at least some of em no more than powerful then modern decks. Some are a bit more of a stretch than others I'll admit but I don't feel like going through each deck for em but restricting access to how many you can summon will definitely hurt these and many others.
Just because they have more room to flourish does not mean they will get played anyway.
If I didn't want actual feedback I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. I could have simply called you a troll and moved on with my life but believe it or not I am actually enjoying this conversation despite both me and you being combatitive towards each other.
I never said you couldn't nerf these decks, I think outright banning these archetypes to the point of not even being playable anymore is not the way to go about things. If you wanted these decks nerfed more or have a more frequent banlist that's fine but I highly doubt unless you outright get rid of them that it's going to stop people from playing it or moving on to the next five best things.
Just because you aren't a fan doesn't mean others can not even without resorting to playing meta. The biggest issue with Yugioh is that it doesnt have a rotation so everything can be played with everything to some degree and trying to make something like that fair for everyone isn't going to work in the way you think it is without some heavy duty reconstruction to the core gameplay which I have yet to find someone who can come up with one that actually sounds like a good idea to advance the game for the better. Like I said before, I can only speak for myself that I can win regularly with my rogue strategies and can have fun and enjoy myself regardless on the state of the game because I found a way to have fun in my own way and encourage others to do the same.
Meta in any game will define how you play the game and just because you strip down whats best does not make every other deck better, some decks are just bad, poorly designed and weak with or without the state of the meta. Do I want more decks to flourish? Of course. I think adding more to these forgotten decks like how I used unchained for example can give these decks the opportunity to shine with how fast the current game is now. You want to take away whats new to bring back things that already had their time to shine and if they never shined in the first place well then there may be a reason to that.
It stops the opponent down to a halt for no downsides because people who add it to their deck will most likely build their deck around avoiding that downside to begin with, unfortunately for us we don't have the option for a side deck to deal with it better.
Stop treating meta as if it's some boogieman. No one is arguing that you shouldn't want better balance, we are arguing that you shouldn't be regressive about it.
As I said before, you don't me, I don't know you. I do not know your personal experience with the market, all I can say is with all the games I have played in the past there's a reason why I've stuck with Yugioh the longest. And I am sorry that asking other people to improve at this incredibly complicated mess of a card game ruins my credibility.
Oh I 100% agree however not everyone is going to agree that the issues you've brought up are actual issues, not because they are dumb but because they understand the direction the game is going. And I have been, like I said I been using points and examples of both the games history and my own history exploring other mediums while you continue to berate me and other people who dare disagree with you. You have actually started to bring up valid points and arguments to back your stance though and I am happy you have.
Bro you didn't even know about MR4 don't even start lmfao.
Again, based on various factors you are willingly ignoring and covering basis to try and prevent you from picking low hanging fruit. And I don't blame people for not using meta, I am asking people to use the tools at their disposal. There's nothing wrong with hand traps (again except Maxx C), if cherry blossom becomes meta or if ghost ogre becomes meta or if droll and lock bird becomes meta, the fact that they have become meta does not make them game breakingly powerful, it just makes them versatile enough to be used in the current state of the game.
I doubt it too, buddy.
Alright I'll take fault in that only on the basis that I was assuming you meant nuance in a black and white sense, not in a greater picture sense. I have my stance cause I think about the short term and long term effects, what it will do to the market, what will happen and from my experience has proven to happen.
Aww, bring it in buddy, that's friendship is all about! /s[/quote]
They aren't contradictory, cards are often limited and semi limited accordingly and like I said, if they are banned indefinitely, it's probably for a very good reason. We need more frequent updates to the banlist to keep things fresh and more adjusted, from how I was interpreting your statements cause you never clarified it just sounded like you wanted to just completely get rid of these newer types of decks which I was inherently disagreeing with.
All in all like I said, I enjoyed this conversation. I won't have as much free time anymore to respond like this for quite some time but I did have fun talking about this. At the end of the day I think we both have different approaches on how to improve the game I feel like I am missing a point I wanted to make somewhere in here but I can't be bothered right now anymore. We can agree to disagree but one thing for sure is we both want Yugioh to improve and I hope that it eventually does. Have a good one and thank you for the chat and I do apologize for any rude behavior I had presented towards you, I often give what I take but that's really no excuse. Peace.
Edit: Don't worry, I'll be sure to read your responses when I got the time if you do respond, like I said I have genuinely enjoyed this. Good luck!
Hearing these kinds of pathetic excuses for people to defend ruining others peoples fun because they want to do anything to abuse their way to victory (as if not even allowing their opponent to even play in the first place is any actual victory besides to the abusers pathetic ego) is honestly a joke. People are even going so far as to smurf to lower ranks (as the op points out) to harass newer players (though they are honestly doing them a favor to show them how pathetic not only the game is but the community too).
The saddest (and most pathetic part) is people who play these broken decks think they are actually good at the game and have any sort of skill and that is absolutely hilarious.
Thats atleast something I respect him for. He know when he is wrong unlike others that has spend the past year having the same '' you are all wrong and i'm right additude''
Thats what I hate the most. People that never want to admit they are wrong and will keep trying to manipulate you to give him the answer he want just to prove he is right.
People that can admit they were wrong will get far in life then people that will rather live on a lie.