Complain About the Ishizu Cards

[draconicepic]

I've honestly seen more hate for Tearlament than anything else on the forums, but there is little to no mention of the Ishizu cards despite how many problems they cause. It's already been seen in Dkayed's no-Ishizu card tournaments that Tearlament falls out of Tear 0 the moment the cards are removed. In fact, format becomes incredibly diverse without them.

For the love of all things holy Konami, hit the Ishizu Cards already.

[Astrallight]

The Ishizu cards are the main problem of the deck. Remove them all and Tear pretty much ends up as a balanced deck.

[Blind Oracle]

main hits im looking for include mudora and cyber-stein. everything else is give or take.

[Zaebore]

It's just the word Quick effect that makes the Ishizu cards terrible. Milling is fine but the shufflers are nightmare fuel ladies and gentlemen. We all know how we feel about quick effects and you hate to see it on any monster your opponent plays. If they just removed quick effects on the Ishizu cards I'll just say problem solved. We'll call it a day and have a drink.

Either that or actually use the gravekeeper's trap to enable quick effects on the Ishizu cards. Trap gives quick effect to the Ishizu cards, opponent destroys trap then there is no quick effect on the Ishizu cards anymore meaning you cannot activate on your opponent's turn since the trap is removed from the field.

Problem solved you can play to your heart's content again. Just prepare some backrow removal destroy one card and the graveyard is yours again. Simple and easy to understand. This would make life a little bit simpler. If only it was this easy. These are just some things that I think could maybe work potentially if they did some changes about the cards.

[draconicepic]

Originally posted by Zaebore:

It's just the word Quick effect that makes the Ishizu cards terrible. Milling is fine but the shufflers are nightmare fuel ladies and gentlemen. We all know how we feel about quick effects and you hate to see it on any monster your opponent plays. If they just removed quick effects on the Ishizu cards I'll just say problem solved. We'll call it a day and have a drink.

Either that or actually use the gravekeeper's trap to enable quick effects on the Ishizu cards. Trap gives quick effect to the Ishizu cards, opponent destroys trap then there is no quick effect on the Ishizu cards anymore meaning you cannot activate on your opponent's turn since the trap is removed from the field.

Problem solved you can play to your heart's content again. Just prepare some backrow removal destroy one card and the graveyard is yours again. Simple and easy to understand. This would make life a little bit simpler. If only it was this easy. These are just some things that I think could maybe work potentially if they did some changes about the cards.

The shufflers certainly the a powerful component. I agree that, if the shufflers weren't quick effect, they would probably be more balanced. However, I still think the millers need to be at least limited to 1 considering how powerful they can be in GY-focused decks until Konami releases more support for other strategies.

[Terminal Desolation]

shufflers being quick effect is fine, it's the fact that they're also 3-for-1s that really breaks them

if they were 1 for 1 like a DD Crow from grave or something they'd be fine, but being able to snipe 3 potential problem cards for 1 is crazy

[Aldain]

They are probably the most unhealthy cards Konami has printed in a long time, mostly because they're not even archetype locked so anything that wants to self-mill can benefit from them.

There's a good reason why they got mangled in both the TCG and OCG F/L lists to different degrees, because they're absolutely insane and turned Tears from just being overstuffed with effects to 16 chain nightmares.

[ChaosBahamut]

All I can say regarding the Tears and Isizhu Fairies archetypes is:

Thank you Macro Cosmos.

[nightmareside15]

Yeah. Some complaints in the discussion mostly only mention tearlaments without even mentioning the most toxic engine, ishizu's. Even if they were nerfing tear as an archetype into the void, as long as ishizu's still around people will find a new deck to apply ishizu's. The milling and graveyard control is already too much. It might be one thing if it only affect the user deck, but somehow konami made sure it also affect the opponent's.

I've been waiting for thread like this, as this is very objective considering how tear is top tier to the point many deck adding banishing elements just to counter this thing. Not the usual "I hate combo deck, I hate deck that summon X times, etc" without even mention of what really OP in the ladder.

[Zelwy]

Do Tearlmanets really fall from tier 0 after you remove the Ishizu Cards? the cards are still not here but cant they just play with kashtira later and still be tier 0?

[Terminal Desolation]

they'd still be good, yes, but it wouldn't be tier 0 like it is now, probably tier 1 - the Danger Tear builds people were running in TCG before the Ishizus came out are a good example of how a deck might look

also Kashtira's main gameplan is to build macro cosmos on legs, I can't imagine even full power tear playing too well into that most of the time

I really do think it's more the Ishizus that are the issue, as they've been exploited to terrifying degrees in other decks too - think Adams, think the Runick Ishizu build that was running around before Tear dropped, think the 60 card Necroface pile that could theoretically banish your whole deck turn 1... all of which are enabled or significantly improved by the Ishizus alone.

[Papa Shekels]

Originally posted by LeCroix:

Do Tearlmanets really fall from tier 0 after you remove the Ishizu Cards? the cards are still not here but cant they just play with kashtira later and still be tier 0?

Tearlaments don't do all that much by themselves. They get 3 "free" fusions per turn if they mill well, and all of them can be stopped with any graveyard disruption. Their in-archetype fusions just mill a bit, negate one summon, and spin one card. Don't get me wrong, that's still extremely powerful, but it's fair enough that even a rogue deck has a chance against them if they know the choke points. The only arguably unfair thing about them is that not a single one of them locks you into anything, so they can be mixed with some degenerate things like making winda or spright elf during their combos. The fact that the ishizu cards act as extenders by milling up to 10-20 more cards per turn and getting up to 2 mass graveyard disruptions per turn, all for free while doing their regular tear combos, is what throws them over the top into unfair levels.

It's also the reason why the tear mirror in MD is so luck-based. They decided to give us "full" power tearlaments with consistency hits, so whoever gets access to their 1-of field spell and their 5 copies of shufflers first is very likely to win unless the opponent can get some lucky mills to catch up since we only have 6 total copies of fusion names to mill

[Zelwy]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Originally posted by LeCroix:

Do Tearlmanets really fall from tier 0 after you remove the Ishizu Cards? the cards are still not here but cant they just play with kashtira later and still be tier 0?

Tearlaments don't do all that much by themselves. They get 3 "free" fusions per turn if they mill well, and all of them can be stopped with any graveyard disruption. Their in-archetype fusions just mill a bit, negate one summon, and spin one card. Don't get me wrong, that's still extremely powerful, but it's fair enough that even a rogue deck has a chance against them if they know the choke points. The only arguably unfair thing about them is that not a single one of them locks you into anything, so they can be mixed with some degenerate things like making winda or spright elf during their combos. The fact that the ishizu cards act as extenders by milling up to 10-20 more cards per turn and getting up to 2 mass graveyard disruptions per turn, all for free while doing their regular tear combos, is what throws them over the top into unfair levels.

It's also the reason why the tear mirror in MD is so luck-based. They decided to give us "full" power tearlaments with consistency hits, so whoever gets access to their 1-of field spell and their 5 copies of shufflers first is very likely to win unless the opponent can get some lucky mills to catch up since we only have 6 total copies of fusion names to mill

I know that, but that is kinda the point, Ishizu then is not the main problem (even though still is a big problem) since Tears will just be combined with something, then the better thing to kill tear is just to kill them directly.

if people want to stop seeing Tears + something decks at least in the future.

[Pastor Shotty McBangJump]

Both?

Both is good.

[draconicepic]

Originally posted by LeCroix:

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Tearlaments don't do all that much by themselves. They get 3 "free" fusions per turn if they mill well, and all of them can be stopped with any graveyard disruption. Their in-archetype fusions just mill a bit, negate one summon, and spin one card. Don't get me wrong, that's still extremely powerful, but it's fair enough that even a rogue deck has a chance against them if they know the choke points. The only arguably unfair thing about them is that not a single one of them locks you into anything, so they can be mixed with some degenerate things like making winda or spright elf during their combos. The fact that the ishizu cards act as extenders by milling up to 10-20 more cards per turn and getting up to 2 mass graveyard disruptions per turn, all for free while doing their regular tear combos, is what throws them over the top into unfair levels.

It's also the reason why the tear mirror in MD is so luck-based. They decided to give us "full" power tearlaments with consistency hits, so whoever gets access to their 1-of field spell and their 5 copies of shufflers first is very likely to win unless the opponent can get some lucky mills to catch up since we only have 6 total copies of fusion names to mill

I know that, but that is kinda the point, Ishizu then is not the main problem (even though still is a big problem) since Tears will just be combined with something, then the better thing to kill tear is just to kill them directly.

if people want to stop seeing Tears + something decks at least in the future.

Many decks can do degenerate things. Simply because Tearlament can use cards like Winda or Spright Elf (Which is just broken in general as it can be played in any deck with a level 2 monster) doesn't make Tearlament uniquely bad. Complain about Tearlament if you wish, but I found full power Floodgate Runick 100 times more toxic to the format.

[TormentedSalad]

Originally posted by LeCroix:

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Tearlaments don't do all that much by themselves. They get 3 "free" fusions per turn if they mill well, and all of them can be stopped with any graveyard disruption. Their in-archetype fusions just mill a bit, negate one summon, and spin one card. Don't get me wrong, that's still extremely powerful, but it's fair enough that even a rogue deck has a chance against them if they know the choke points. The only arguably unfair thing about them is that not a single one of them locks you into anything, so they can be mixed with some degenerate things like making winda or spright elf during their combos. The fact that the ishizu cards act as extenders by milling up to 10-20 more cards per turn and getting up to 2 mass graveyard disruptions per turn, all for free while doing their regular tear combos, is what throws them over the top into unfair levels.

It's also the reason why the tear mirror in MD is so luck-based. They decided to give us "full" power tearlaments with consistency hits, so whoever gets access to their 1-of field spell and their 5 copies of shufflers first is very likely to win unless the opponent can get some lucky mills to catch up since we only have 6 total copies of fusion names to mill

I know that, but that is kinda the point, Ishizu then is not the main problem (even though still is a big problem) since Tears will just be combined with something, then the better thing to kill tear is just to kill them directly.

if people want to stop seeing Tears + something decks at least in the future.

Why is the better result to outright kill a deck give me one good reason I don't believe in destroying a deck unless its really the only solution and the Ishizu cards are not really a very solid archtype they have never done anything healthy all they have done is enable a bunch of decks to go wild and even enabling FTK deckouts while the shufflers are able to invalidate certain decks just by existing.

So yeah lets just try axing Ishizu cards completely I think that + the limits already in place might make tear managable and if they really are not still then they get axed.