Let's Talk: Edison and Goat Formats

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

So, now that Konami started actively supporting alternate formats with their Time Wizard format at YCS and similar events, it turns out that vast majority of players are preferring to play Edison rather than Slowpoke Goat.

Granted, people are playing modernized versions of decks that were legal at the time, rather than playing top 16 stuff from that SJC.

What I find interesting is that this success of Edison over Goat shows that despite so many people here saying that Goat was the best format, etc etc praising it like no tomorrow, when given the option, people don't choose to play that format, and, according to Joshua Schmidt, one of the reasons Goat doesn't see as much success as Edison is speed, games just take an enernity to finish in Goat if someone doesn't surrender when they know they lost. By extension, this shows that a core thing people like about Yu-Gi-Oh is the speed, as when given the choice, people choose the faster format because it's faster.

[Blind Oracle]

not only is edison far more popular than goat. i wouldnt even say goat is the second most popular, or at least its a 'TOSS' up between goat, hat and toss. with both hat and toss being very grind heavy formats. i think what draws people to yugioh is deck identity, with most goat decks sharing 20~ staples, formats that offer more deck building opportunities will see more play in the long run.

[Papa Shekels]

Goat isn't necessarily too slow, it's just repetitive. There are only so many ways to build a deck when you have 20+ auto-include power cards. That's also the format that has been analyzed the longest, to the point where practically every aspect has already been solved. It's a fun gimmick experience, but not something you want to repeat on a regular basis. There are a limited number of games you can play before you realize how much it all depends on who draws their board wipes/hand destruction/draw cards first

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Goat isn't necessarily too slow, it's just repetitive. There are only so many ways to build a deck when you have 20+ auto-include power cards. That's also the format that has been analyzed the longest, to the point where practically every aspect has already been solved. It's a fun gimmick experience, but not something you want to repeat on a regular basis. There are a limited number of games you can play before you realize how much it all depends on who draws their board wipes/hand destruction/draw cards first

Well, while watching Joshua's vid, he said that one of the reasons is that Goat is too slow, so while that might not be the only reason, it's still an important one.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Goat isn't necessarily too slow, it's just repetitive. There are only so many ways to build a deck when you have 20+ auto-include power cards. That's also the format that has been analyzed the longest, to the point where practically every aspect has already been solved. It's a fun gimmick experience, but not something you want to repeat on a regular basis. There are a limited number of games you can play before you realize how much it all depends on who draws their board wipes/hand destruction/draw cards first

And that analysis even further drives home how the game the boomers want never actually existed outside the playground. The cutoff date was picked because its namesake deck was believed to be tier 0, but further experimentation showed that it was rogue tier at best.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Goat isn't necessarily too slow, it's just repetitive. There are only so many ways to build a deck when you have 20+ auto-include power cards. That's also the format that has been analyzed the longest, to the point where practically every aspect has already been solved. It's a fun gimmick experience, but not something you want to repeat on a regular basis. There are a limited number of games you can play before you realize how much it all depends on who draws their board wipes/hand destruction/draw cards first

And that analysis even further drives home how the game the boomers want never actually existed outside the playground. The cutoff date was picked because its namesake deck was believed to be tier 0, but further experimentation showed that it was rogue tier at best.

I mean, the way we understand the game now is much different than back then.

Weren't cards like Solemn Judgement considered bad cards when they first came out, and only later did players understood just how bonkers they actually are?

[Papa Shekels]

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

And that analysis even further drives home how the game the boomers want never actually existed outside the playground. The cutoff date was picked because its namesake deck was believed to be tier 0, but further experimentation showed that it was rogue tier at best.

I would like classic formats and I'm all for it, but most of the complaints I see about bringing back the good old days or whatever look to me like the people's issues are not between new yugioh and old yugioh, as much as it is about casual play and competitive play. And again, I would like more officially supported formats that include classic/retro stuff, but I feel like those kinds of people will not get what they want when they receive that kind of format in a competitive setting when they are imagining that old is necessarily equal to casual

[nightmareside15]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

And that analysis even further drives home how the game the boomers want never actually existed outside the playground. The cutoff date was picked because its namesake deck was believed to be tier 0, but further experimentation showed that it was rogue tier at best.

I would like classic formats and I'm all for it, but most of the complaints I see about bringing back the good old days or whatever look to me like the people's issues are not between new yugioh and old yugioh, as much as it is about casual play and competitive play. And again, I would like more officially supported formats that include classic/retro stuff, but I feel like those kinds of people will not get what they want when they receive that kind of format in a competitive setting when they are imagining that old is necessarily equal to casual

Well, looking at 2004 championship decklist, I would say that that might be a total shock for anyone saying "yugioh aren't like this during my time". I genuinely surprised when I see black luster soldier price in gx duel academy password machine without knowing it's back story.

[MancakeBR]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Goat isn't necessarily too slow, it's just repetitive. There are only so many ways to build a deck when you have 20+ auto-include power cards. That's also the format that has been analyzed the longest, to the point where practically every aspect has already been solved. It's a fun gimmick experience, but not something you want to repeat on a regular basis. There are a limited number of games you can play before you realize how much it all depends on who draws their board wipes/hand destruction/draw cards first

I played a little bit of Goat Format a while back (like 2 months ago?)

I did something a bit different using The Creator.

But it doesn't have much success.

So I can definitely say there isn't a lot of room to mess around with builds in GOAT.

[Papa Shekels]

Originally posted by MancakeBR:

I played a little bit of Goat Format a while back (like 2 months ago?)

I did something a bit different using The Creator.

But it doesn't have much success.

So I can definitely say there isn't a lot of room to mess around with builds in GOAT.

There really isn't. Like, you *can* definitely play a playground deck or try something like pure warrior without generic staples. But you are just willingly crippling yourself by not using all of the ridiculously powerful blowout cards of the time, many of which are still banned or limited to this day. Playing a garbage deck by avoiding any good cards doesn't make anybody a misunderstood genius, it just lowers their win rate

[Silyon]

Originally posted by C.C. アヌビス:

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

And that analysis even further drives home how the game the boomers want never actually existed outside the playground. The cutoff date was picked because its namesake deck was believed to be tier 0, but further experimentation showed that it was rogue tier at best.

I mean, the way we understand the game now is much different than back then.

Weren't cards like Solemn Judgement considered bad cards when they first came out, and only later did players understood just how bonkers they actually are?

This is true. Judgement was seen as trash-tier because of the heavy LP investment compared to the payoff of negating a single weak effect. It's not like today where it was being used to stop a Nib or Maxx C in it's tracks. Instead the anti-meta leaned more on cards like Magic Jammer and Magic Drain, because of all the comparatively absurd spells in rotation. No one cares if you resolve a Jinzo or w/e, but throw out a Delinquent Duo and they'll pay any cost to stop it. Even going neg-1.

[MancakeBR]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Originally posted by MancakeBR:

I played a little bit of Goat Format a while back (like 2 months ago?)

I did something a bit different using The Creator.

But it doesn't have much success.

So I can definitely say there isn't a lot of room to mess around with builds in GOAT.

There really isn't. Like, you *can* definitely play a playground deck or try something like pure warrior without generic staples. But you are just willingly crippling yourself by not using all of the ridiculously powerful blowout cards of the time, many of which are still banned or limited to this day. Playing a garbage deck by avoiding any good cards doesn't make anybody a misunderstood genius, it just lowers their win rate

Unfortunately even with some of the blow out stuff, there's just no way in getting to The Creator (from my experience) consistently.

But the idea was to play The Creator, bring back monsters like Molten Zombie or Sacred Crane to draw a card each time, then using those monsters to Tribute Summon for stuff like Maju Garzett, Airknight Parshath, Jinzo or some Monarch.

I used the Zombie Engine, used a Warrior Engine having a good line up of 1 Tribute monsters (outside of The Creator obviously). But it just really sucks it under performed.

This is why I don't like older formats because they're basically solved formats.

That's why I prefer modern yugioh as time progresses. While the format can get solved easily, sometimes Konami releases an archetype everyone dismisses because it seems underpowered. Then a guy takes it to a major event and tops and all of a sudden people act like it's the best deck.

[Papa Shekels]

Originally posted by MancakeBR:

This is why I don't like older formats because they're basically solved formats.

That's why I prefer modern yugioh as time progresses. While the format can get solved easily, sometimes Konami releases an archetype everyone dismisses because it seems underpowered. Then a guy takes it to a major event and tops and all of a sudden people act like it's the best deck.

I do like when things are just uncertain sometimes. If you have been keeping up with the Last Card Standing tournament series, the power level is supposed to drop every week as more and more cards get banned, but it actually ended up getting stronger for a while when people realized block dragon and auroradon are still legal and can break things. The meta is constantly shifting and what you do depends on what others are choosing to play. You just don't really get that in a format where everybody is playing the same deck core with a small engine of something else and you know exactly what to expect

[MancakeBR]

Originally posted by Papa Shekels:

Originally posted by MancakeBR:

This is why I don't like older formats because they're basically solved formats.

That's why I prefer modern yugioh as time progresses. While the format can get solved easily, sometimes Konami releases an archetype everyone dismisses because it seems underpowered. Then a guy takes it to a major event and tops and all of a sudden people act like it's the best deck.

I do like when things are just uncertain sometimes. If you have been keeping up with the Last Card Standing tournament series, the power level is supposed to drop every week as more and more cards get banned, but it actually ended up getting stronger for a while when people realized block dragon and auroradon are still legal and can break things. The meta is constantly shifting and what you do depends on what others are choosing to play. You just don't really get that in a format where everybody is playing the same deck core with a small engine of something else and you know exactly what to expect

No idea what that tournament is.

[Knud den Store 🧙‍♂]

I don't like any of those formats, I would rather play Duelist Alliance format up until Zoo with a custom banlist and erratas.

[Thain]

So what was the prize for 1st 2nd 3rd and participants in the Time Wizard format at YCS? Was it given by Konami or by the hosting shop owners?