Irrational Hate Towards Combo Decks

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

So, while reading comments and watching some vids for the fun of it, it got me thinking, why do so many people hate anything that does more than summon 1-2 monsters and pass? I'm not talking about hate towards stuff like Endymion's complete and utter lack of any form of hard once per turn on the negations, Drytron Herald who doesn't seem to even know what once per chain is, PK Rhongo, Adamancipator or Adventure Tenyi/Combo and the likes of those that really need hits and such, sure, those deserve hits, but what I'm talking about is that irrational hate to the point where they want built in summon limits, and we get those types of threads on a very regular basis, especially when it comes from people who think Maxx "C" is fine.

Well, I came to some theories, they most likely won't be 100% true for everyone, obviously, but I think these do play a solid part of the reason. Those theories can be summed up in 3 main arguments:
- lack of competitive play (locals don't count)
- only watched the OG anime, maybe GX
- improper playing with friends

Let's go over them, shall we?

- Lack of competitive play

We know that a lot of people who complain didn't play at any big events, and there's also locals where people actively didn't play meta, that's stuff people on the forum admitted, that when going to locals, they wouldn't play meta decks to ensure "everyone has fun", and all that does play a role into the hate towards combo decks. Combo decks were in the game for forever, but mostly in the competitive scene, from stuff like Magical Scientist FTK, Empty Jar, Plant Synchro, Gishki hand loop, Wind-Up hand loops, the Hand loop via Ice Hand and Fire Hand, Frog FTK that even won worlds, and those are the ones that come off of the top of my head, there's many more, so people playing at competitive events saw them being in the game for forever, people know they existed and they don't mind them, because they were always in the game, but what about the people that didn't play at such events, and perhaps only ever heard of those things, and only saw them in YouTube videos? Well, then obviously they aren't used to them, short duels with long combos never existed for these people in the IRL game, so it's something they don't like, because it's not how they remember the game.

We already know that a lot of people think there was no "meta copy pasta decks back in the day", because they don't know stuff like certain forums or magazines were talking about what's happening in the competitive scene and showing decklists, so them not knowing about combo decks, well, that's not even plausible, it's pretty much confirmed.

- Only watched the DM anime

Well, let's crack this one, what's up with this point? Well, when it comes to hating combo decks, what are some of the reasons? "Duels end in 2-3 turns and turns take too long". Many of them want short turns with high turn counts, and when it comes to the anime, that type of thing only happens in a single show, which is...*drumrolls*...the DM serie.

Check this video from Yugioh Everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Xuy9JGGI0

That's the longest duels in terms of turn count in all of Yu-Gi-Oh, and there's only 2 non DM duels on it, both from 5D's, duels that took place in the World Racing Grand Prix arc, basically, 3v3 duels, all others are DM duels. There's a special mention, and I'll spoil it, as it's not very important, in Zexal and Vrains, no duel took longer than 12 turns, while in GX, there was only 1 duel that was 20 turns, everything else was shorter. Yugi v Kaiba in the Duel City Tournament took 25 turns, and it didn't qualify for that top, as the turn count to qualify for that video is 26 turns. Many people said they only watched the DM show, so for them, long turn counts are something they grew up with.

People playing mainly with their friends and watching the anime, high turn counts becomes the norm for them, and then seeing the game with short turn counts now is completely off, it's not what they remember, and as previously, they don't like it.

- Improper playing with friends

Last one comes from watching a video from Dzeeff, where he mentions that a lot of people in his comments have certain beliefs about the "old school" game, that simply aren't true, that seem to be made-up rules, and he even admits that he himself did such things, playing with different rules, in his case, lower LP so they can get more duels in during breaks at school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bft13K0Q610

Well, made-up rules seem to be a thing many of us did, and before someone jumps with "but I didn't do that", I didn't say "everyone", I said "many", I mean, let's remember a thread from a while ago, about the guy asking why we only draw 1 card during draw phase, instead of as many as we need? And there were people in the comments of that thread saying they too drew a lot of cards, I also did that back in the day. Why are people from different parts of the world that clearly didn't meet eachother 20 years ago seem to remember doing similar things, which are not part of the rules of the game?

When we look at everything together, not playing competitively to see combo decks existing in the game since the start, only watching the DM show where long turn counts are the norm, and playing with made-up rules as a child, be it because they followed some anime rules, or to ensure they get more duels in during lunch break, or whatever reason, it gives a reason behind why bunch of people may hate combo decks and how the game is now, because for them, when it never was like this, despite, to an extent, the game was more or less like this.

Don't even get me started with "creativity" or "having to play the exact same staples" and what not.

Anyway, those are just my theories, have fun discussion them if you want to, thanks for reading, have a good one.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Custard の投稿を引用：

C.C. アヌビス の投稿を引用：

Quite the opposite.

Yu-Gi-Oh is very literal with its terms, so people should be using the proper ones correctly.

That way it will help newer players more, because they can find on the card the exact terms used.

You are right there. Just annoys me the mix ppl usually does on the forums, like every negation worked in the same way. Maybe it's something too specific to implement in game.

That's how people are, either ignorance or exaggeration, it caused confusion.

Few months back, there was someone saying that he thought Apollousa is an omni negate because she can negate more than once and because that's how people referred to her.

And that's also a reason on how you get irrational hate towards combo decks, they go in a bubble where they all refer to interruptions as omni negates, so they end up hating the "combo decks that put 5+ omni negates on the field".

That's why I think people would hate stuff less if they'd use the proper terms.

[Takasaur]

At least we can agree that combo decks are more fun to play against than stun right?

[Aldain]

Taka の投稿を引用：

At least we can agree that combo decks are more fun to play against than stun right?

I would agree, if things were a little less "OTK/Lockout" with combo decks.

Right now depending on the state of affairs...barring things like Droplet/DRNM or a few "cannot be reacted to" cards it sometimes feels like combo decks can wind up being soft-stun decks, especially if there's a mix or omni and non-omni negates (usually monster effect negation) on the board.

I still personally think we're just too close to that state (mostly due to the OCG meta/FL being mental imo) to say for sure one way or another.

[Custard]

C.C. アヌビス の投稿を引用：

Custard の投稿を引用：

You are right there. Just annoys me the mix ppl usually does on the forums, like every negation worked in the same way. Maybe it's something too specific to implement in game.

That's how people are, either ignorance or exaggeration, it caused confusion.

Few months back, there was someone saying that he thought Apollousa is an omni negate because she can negate more than once and because that's how people referred to her.

And that's also a reason on how you get irrational hate towards combo decks, they go in a bubble where they all refer to interruptions as omni negates, so they end up hating the "combo decks that put 5+ omni negates on the field".

That's why I think people would hate stuff less if they'd use the proper terms.

I see this as half a community and konami problem, cos ppl will never learn even if konami choose to put more attention on wordin. Also card design is sometimes so specific... Magic was able to set some common keywords and allowing each card to have their own effect, but yugioh is too wide at this point maybe.

[wildnike]

Taka の投稿を引用：

At least we can agree that combo decks are more fun to play against than stun right?

IMO, stun is really just the extreme end of control, much like Drytron/Adventure Tenyi/PK Rhongo are the extreme end of combo. Both sides are all about making sure your opponent can't play either through either resource excession (you have far more negates than they have outs) or resource prevention (you make sure they can't play their outs in the first place).

I say they hold the same weight of "sucks to play against."

[Takasaur]

wildnike の投稿を引用：

Taka の投稿を引用：

At least we can agree that combo decks are more fun to play against than stun right?

IMO, stun is really just the extreme end of control, much like Drytron/Adventure Tenyi/PK Rhongo are the extreme end of combo. Both sides are all about making sure your opponent can't play either through either resource excession (you have far more negates than they have outs) or resource prevention (you make sure they can't play their outs in the first place).

I say they hold the same weight of "sucks to play against."

But imho, Combo is way more easier to break since their combo fell apart after an Ash

[MancakeBR]

Shark の投稿を引用：

C.C. アヌビス の投稿を引用：

But Apollousa isn't an omni negate.

See what I mean with irrational hate? They delude themselves with these unrealistic boards, then cry about it.

"5+ omni negates", ok, which are they?

I guess Synchrons if you cant stop their Speeder. Every time i decided to waste some time of my life to watch them combo when i didnt have a handtrap to stop them they ended on a board with around 4 omni negates. And i dont think i'll need to explain what the omni negates are in a Stardust extra deck. Dont remember if they run some backrow that negates too but at that point its either you draw DRNM or get your entire hand negated anyway. Not really sure about any other decks since thats the main one i remember cuz its like 50% of what i faced when the Stardust support came in that one pack. I think people tend to exaggerate with the amount of omni negates since i rarely see decks that arent Synchrons or Drytron churn out that many negates and tend to call anything a omni negate even if its just negating one thing. Tho guess Apo can be considered a "omni" negate if youre playing Superheavy Sams:cleanseal:
Cant wait to see Cubics get called op cuz they have a trap that can potentially perma disable every monster the opp controls at activation:cleanseal:

I played against a Synchron Player...

I played Umi Control and went 2nd...

I activated Sea Stealth II, he negated, fine, I dropped a 2nd. Activated Pot of Prosperity, added some card idk what off the top of my head. Activated Fish Sonar. Normal Summon Jellyfish, use Jellyfish to special summon Kairyu-Shin, opponent attempted to negate, but I negated their Crystal Wing with Jellyfish then proceeded to wreck their field.

[MancakeBR]

wildnike の投稿を引用：

Taka の投稿を引用：

At least we can agree that combo decks are more fun to play against than stun right?

IMO, stun is really just the extreme end of control, much like Drytron/Adventure Tenyi/PK Rhongo are the extreme end of combo. Both sides are all about making sure your opponent can't play either through either resource excession (you have far more negates than they have outs) or resource prevention (you make sure they can't play their outs in the first place).

I say they hold the same weight of "sucks to play against."

Which is why I say Combo plays harder not smarter, while control/stun plays smarter not harder.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Aldain の投稿を引用：

I still personally think we're just too close to that state (mostly due to the OCG meta/FL being mental imo) to say for sure one way or another.

I think a lot of the issue is that they hope Maxx "C" will keep it in check.

I mean, they even semi-limited Ash for a while a while back, which really shows they indeed rely too much on Maxx "C" to keep things in check, so they take too many liberties with card design.

https://ygorganization.com/plantftkdiesconstructlives/

Probably that's how we got Halq and Verte the way they are now, "don't worry guys, combo decks won't use them, Maxx "C" is at 3, we semi'd Ash, limited Crossout, everything's fine"

[HeraldOfOpera]

C.C. アヌビス の投稿を引用：

Aldain の投稿を引用：

I still personally think we're just too close to that state (mostly due to the OCG meta/FL being mental imo) to say for sure one way or another.

I think a lot of the issue is that they hope Maxx "C" will keep it in check.

I mean, they even semi-limited Ash for a while a while back, which really shows they indeed rely too much on Maxx "C" to keep things in check, so they take too many liberties with card design.

https://ygorganization.com/plantftkdiesconstructlives/

Probably that's how we got Halq and Verte the way they are now, "don't worry guys, combo decks won't use them, Maxx "C" is at 3, we semi'd Ash, limited Crossout, everything's fine"

That's less "combo decks won't use them" and more "combo decks won't exist at all" which is just pure delusion.

[Zelwy]

C.C. アヌビス の投稿を引用：

2. I get that, and as I said in the op, I also agree that those need to be hit. Anyone who actually cares about the game will speak up when such decks do pop up.

Even so, I don't think that that justifies the hate combo decks get, like, if someone got such a severe case of PTSD from Drytron that they want rules changed to to not allow others to play combo, that guy needs to follow the advice of Lesser Lord Kusanali, maybe even find a specialist, instead of being on the forum.

I am not a expert in yugioh history, but for what I have read most of the time someting went toxic seem to have been a combo deck fault, I dont mean combo always dominate (for what I have been reading control is the best strategy if you go trough the game format history) but combo have the tendency to go toxic more often so is normal that is marked at the bad apple by people, and it will always be treated as such most likely no matter how fair it can be/have been lately.

[Merilirem]

SirCroix の投稿を引用：

C.C. アヌビス の投稿を引用：

2. I get that, and as I said in the op, I also agree that those need to be hit. Anyone who actually cares about the game will speak up when such decks do pop up.

Even so, I don't think that that justifies the hate combo decks get, like, if someone got such a severe case of PTSD from Drytron that they want rules changed to to not allow others to play combo, that guy needs to follow the advice of Lesser Lord Kusanali, maybe even find a specialist, instead of being on the forum.

I am not a expert in yugioh history, but for what I have read most of the time someting went toxic seem to have been a combo deck fault, I dont mean combo always dominate (for what I have been reading control is the best strategy if you go trough the game format history) but combo have the tendency to go toxic more often so is normal that is marked at the bad apple by people, and it will always be treated as such most likely no matter how fair it can be/have been lately.

Its the extremes. The reason combo is seen so much is because its very nature relies on exploiting unexpected synergies. So whenever Konami messes up a broken combo appears. Extremes like Mystic Mine which are entirely caused by a single really annoying card existing are the same thing. Usually though other decks require multiple cards to break but with Combo's they are always just waiting for that 1 card and once they get it things get crazy.

Also most players dislike waiting for combo's to happen. Generally cardgames want constant interaction and things like Mystic Mine and FTKs or 20 minute setup decks just don't have that. The best kind of Meta IMO is one that revolves around simple plays that build or rebuild over several 1-3 minute turns. The further you get from that kind of meta the more toxic things get even if the win rates stay the same.

[Silamon]

Personally I wish there was more interaction between players that wasn't just saying no to each other.

Whether that be a board with 2-5 negates, a couple destruction effects and a banish sprinkled in, or a single card that says "If you control more monsters than me, you can't do anything."

One of my favorite archetypes in recent years was Evil Twins. They can interact without it just being negates and I enjoy that about them even if that very same thing means they are not really relevant to the meta.

Edit:
I miss when battle traps were a thing. Stuff like Rush Recklessly or mirror force. You could play around them or you could walk into it. It was more interesting in my opinion than just trying to figure out how to get around a bunch of negates.

[Merilirem]

Silamon の投稿を引用：

Personally I wish there was more interaction between players that wasn't just saying no to each other.

Whether that be a board with 2-5 negates, a couple destruction effects and a banish sprinkled in, or a single card that says "If you control more monsters than me, you can't do anything."

One of my favorite archetypes in recent years was Evil Twins. They can interact without it just being negates and I enjoy that about them even if that very same thing means they are not really relevant to the meta.

Edit:
I miss when battle traps were a thing. Stuff like Rush Recklessly or mirror force. You could play around them or you could walk into it. It was more interesting in my opinion than just trying to figure out how to get around a bunch of negates.

I do miss battle traps, though I use them myself so I miss them less than others. Also a lot of funny decks in gold right now including oldschool ones. Battle traps are in a funny position where the opponent probably isn't ready for them unless they built a negate board. The backrow destruction can be countered fairly well with cards that are not at all bad to just have in your deck.

Today I had a duel where I got lightning stormed but they didn't read Blue Eyes Jet lol.

I think what I like about backrow so much is that you can see it. It creates an interesting dynamic when you can see your opponent defenses and deal with them or not. Battle traps were this to the extreme and I still love hitting someone with an 6-8k+ Magic Cylinder.

[Cinnamoon_dragon]

I only hate combo decks that can still play through 2-3 hand traps and Nibiru dropped on them. When they keep summoning all the same from their graveyard, from their deck, from their hand, from another dimension, one monster pulls the other one that was just destroyed by you and activates his effects again.. Or when the opponent manages to return the overwhelming advantage by showing me almost all of his extra deck with only one remaining starting card in hand