Irrational Hate Towards Combo Decks

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

So, while reading comments and watching some vids for the fun of it, it got me thinking, why do so many people hate anything that does more than summon 1-2 monsters and pass? I'm not talking about hate towards stuff like Endymion's complete and utter lack of any form of hard once per turn on the negations, Drytron Herald who doesn't seem to even know what once per chain is, PK Rhongo, Adamancipator or Adventure Tenyi/Combo and the likes of those that really need hits and such, sure, those deserve hits, but what I'm talking about is that irrational hate to the point where they want built in summon limits, and we get those types of threads on a very regular basis, especially when it comes from people who think Maxx "C" is fine.

Well, I came to some theories, they most likely won't be 100% true for everyone, obviously, but I think these do play a solid part of the reason. Those theories can be summed up in 3 main arguments:
- lack of competitive play (locals don't count)
- only watched the OG anime, maybe GX
- improper playing with friends

Let's go over them, shall we?

- Lack of competitive play

We know that a lot of people who complain didn't play at any big events, and there's also locals where people actively didn't play meta, that's stuff people on the forum admitted, that when going to locals, they wouldn't play meta decks to ensure "everyone has fun", and all that does play a role into the hate towards combo decks. Combo decks were in the game for forever, but mostly in the competitive scene, from stuff like Magical Scientist FTK, Empty Jar, Plant Synchro, Gishki hand loop, Wind-Up hand loops, the Hand loop via Ice Hand and Fire Hand, Frog FTK that even won worlds, and those are the ones that come off of the top of my head, there's many more, so people playing at competitive events saw them being in the game for forever, people know they existed and they don't mind them, because they were always in the game, but what about the people that didn't play at such events, and perhaps only ever heard of those things, and only saw them in YouTube videos? Well, then obviously they aren't used to them, short duels with long combos never existed for these people in the IRL game, so it's something they don't like, because it's not how they remember the game.

We already know that a lot of people think there was no "meta copy pasta decks back in the day", because they don't know stuff like certain forums or magazines were talking about what's happening in the competitive scene and showing decklists, so them not knowing about combo decks, well, that's not even plausible, it's pretty much confirmed.

- Only watched the DM anime

Well, let's crack this one, what's up with this point? Well, when it comes to hating combo decks, what are some of the reasons? "Duels end in 2-3 turns and turns take too long". Many of them want short turns with high turn counts, and when it comes to the anime, that type of thing only happens in a single show, which is...*drumrolls*...the DM serie.

Check this video from Yugioh Everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Xuy9JGGI0

That's the longest duels in terms of turn count in all of Yu-Gi-Oh, and there's only 2 non DM duels on it, both from 5D's, duels that took place in the World Racing Grand Prix arc, basically, 3v3 duels, all others are DM duels. There's a special mention, and I'll spoil it, as it's not very important, in Zexal and Vrains, no duel took longer than 12 turns, while in GX, there was only 1 duel that was 20 turns, everything else was shorter. Yugi v Kaiba in the Duel City Tournament took 25 turns, and it didn't qualify for that top, as the turn count to qualify for that video is 26 turns. Many people said they only watched the DM show, so for them, long turn counts are something they grew up with.

People playing mainly with their friends and watching the anime, high turn counts becomes the norm for them, and then seeing the game with short turn counts now is completely off, it's not what they remember, and as previously, they don't like it.

- Improper playing with friends

Last one comes from watching a video from Dzeeff, where he mentions that a lot of people in his comments have certain beliefs about the "old school" game, that simply aren't true, that seem to be made-up rules, and he even admits that he himself did such things, playing with different rules, in his case, lower LP so they can get more duels in during breaks at school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bft13K0Q610

Well, made-up rules seem to be a thing many of us did, and before someone jumps with "but I didn't do that", I didn't say "everyone", I said "many", I mean, let's remember a thread from a while ago, about the guy asking why we only draw 1 card during draw phase, instead of as many as we need? And there were people in the comments of that thread saying they too drew a lot of cards, I also did that back in the day. Why are people from different parts of the world that clearly didn't meet eachother 20 years ago seem to remember doing similar things, which are not part of the rules of the game?

When we look at everything together, not playing competitively to see combo decks existing in the game since the start, only watching the DM show where long turn counts are the norm, and playing with made-up rules as a child, be it because they followed some anime rules, or to ensure they get more duels in during lunch break, or whatever reason, it gives a reason behind why bunch of people may hate combo decks and how the game is now, because for them, when it never was like this, despite, to an extent, the game was more or less like this.

Don't even get me started with "creativity" or "having to play the exact same staples" and what not.

Anyway, those are just my theories, have fun discussion them if you want to, thanks for reading, have a good one.

[Yerc2]

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

So let me get it straight, hating a card that's lose-lose if it resolves is "irrational", and is busted that it it forces people to build their deck around a single card just so they might have a chance to not lose to it, but hating on something you can't even prove exists, because no matter how many times I asked, you never gave an answer, is completely rational.

Yep, makes complete sense if you don't think about it.

Hating on one of the enabling cards that is easier to deal with and weaker than other enabling cards isn't exactly irrational since it does contribute to the issue. But it's kind of narrow-minded to ignore the actual issue and hate one of the band-aid solutions/lesser perpetrators. It also seems like this has to do with bias of it being a counter to meta decks.
The fact that people have to use a specific card speaks ill of the game balance, whether it is using Maxx "C" to be able to play second, or using any of the outs to the enabling cards.

There are plenty of cards that give people a have a card advantage that lead to them spiralling out of control unless their opponent starts with multiple handtraps. But Maxx "C" is less restrictive in that sense since it does not allow someone to set up a board that prevents play on the first turn.

Ideally, there should be more cards that try to counter first-turn board flooding which prevent your opponent from playing. If they can do that without making things harder for actual combo decks, that would be preferable. But in this control meta where the player going first has an overwhelming advantage and it's easy to get a ton of stuff out, Maxx "C" is the lesser of two evils.

The problem of locking people out from being able to play and needing to draw specific cards to have any chance of being able to play would only get worse if Maxx "C" were banned unless a ton of other cards were banned as well.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Diposting pertama kali oleh 6-4BoD:

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

but hating on something you can't even prove exists

it was just my imagination having experienced what had my write a list of decks that takes several amount of minutes that isn't fun even to defeat

Your point is?

You not having fun defeating or even playing against certain decks is related to "decks that stop you completely from playing" how?

He kept making claims about decks that build full boards of negates, I asked him to name those decks and name those negates, he never did, so for all intents and purposes, he can't prove his claim.

Diposting pertama kali oleh 6-4BoD:

- Swordsoul
- Eldilch
- Destiny Hero
- Dryton
- Utopia
- Floo
- Six Samurai
- Numeron
- Pendulum Mages
- Raidraptor
- Lirilusc

As for the decks you listed, other than Drytron and Endymion/Pendulum Magicians, none of those decks put up any "full board of negates".

- Swordsoul: Chixiao + Baronne
- Eldlich: floogates
- HERO decks: OTK deck
- Drytron Herald: true, but nobody plays it anymore
- Utopia: OTK deck
- Floo: floodgates
- Six Samurai: do they even have an end board that's not a Nibiru token?
- Numeron: OTK deck
- Pendulum: Probably? After losing Halq I haven't seen anybody make big board with them that wasn't an OTK deck
- Raidraptor: can't say, never saw this one yet
- Birds: UDF is the only negate, and it's a monster negate, not even omni negate, Essemblue Robin isn't a negate, Double Dragon Lords isn't a negate, and barrier statue, while annoying, isn't a negate.

So yea, your argument holds as much water as a sieve.

[TormentedSalad]

Diposting pertama kali oleh merkyofayceMF:

Diposting pertama kali oleh TormentedSalad:

nothing really plays through maxx C rather than just drew the out now there are absolutely decks that can pull out the gas to just deck you out under maxx C but those decks are far and few i've done it a few times on dangers and while its amusing to have that option I would give it up in a heart beat if it meant we can decraft that stupid bug and get 90 UR doesnt that sound great no more maxx C roulette before every turn gets going

If you really hate maxx c THAT much, experiment with running Droll and Lock Bird. Not only does it hose Maxx C, it also takes care of a ton of decks that like pilfering their deck for resources outside of the draw step, but I can already guess you're going to scream about draw the out 5head. i can think of 5-6 cards that SPECIFICALLY out Maxx C. it's up to you to build around it or take the challenge.

Just because there's a bunch of options does not make it a healthy card and droll is not always a suitable answer heroes can also use dark law

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Yerc2:

The problem of locking people out from being able to play and needing to draw specific cards to have any chance of being able to play would only get worse if Maxx "C" were banned unless a ton of other cards were banned as well.

Name the decks.

I'm already tired of asking the same question over and over and over and over and over and yet none of you guys seem to ever answer.

Why?

Why is it so hard for you to answer the damn question and give exact examples? If it's such a problem, it should be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ easy to name them.

We know Drytron Herald was an issue, true, but nobody plays it anymore. Adventure Tenyi/Combo was a thing as well, it got hit and nobody plays it anymore, the Tommahawk route seems to not be consistent enough.

What else? Come on, I'm waiting. All decks that used Halqadon to make those huge boards are gone, so what else?

What are those commonly played decks that are such an issue for stopping the opponent completely?

Look, having to play outs was always in the game, but when it comes to combo decks, you have a massive number of outs, I wrote a whole guide about them, and when more get released, I'll add them there. Meta decks respond differently to different outs, or a deck might prefer some outs over others, so while you have to run outs, there's no "set in stone" number or card. You can focus your deck on having more going 2nd cards such as Droplet, Nibiru, Dark Ruler, Evenly, Lightning Storm, Raigeki, Kaijus, Ra Sphere Mode, Lava Golem and what not, or you can focus on hand traps exclusively, or mix and match. When it comes to hand traps, certain decks such as Evil Twins, Marincess, Dragon Link, Chaos and what not, prefer stuff like Effect Veiler because they either draw during their opponent's turn, which makes it better compared to Imperm (hence ratios tend to be 3 Veiler 2 Imperm) or her being a Light attribute is a really cool feature. When IO was legal, Ghost Ogre was a really good card to play in Sky Striker because it allowed you to get to Raye via Area Zero even under IO so you could at least do something. Decks that run E-Tele also have a soft spot for Ghost Ogre due to being able to turn E-Tele into a disruption.

Notice a pattern? There's no "you must run this exact card", what hand traps you run is meta dependent, what deck you run, if you go first or want blind second, etc. In the TCG, since Maxx "C" is banned, there's even decks that don't run any single hand trap, and we've seen this trend appear in decks like Floo and Eldlich in MD as well, because they don't care about Maxx "C", odd how that's happening, no? Must be a pure coincidence that when decks don't need to bother about Maxx "C", hand traps aren't mandatory.

When it comes to Maxx "C" however, the "Maxx "C" suite" of 8-9 cards is mandatory in every deck that needs to deal with Maxx "C". The bug itself, Ash, Called By, and Crossout. Why? Because if Maxx "C" resolves, any competent deck will win unless they bricked so hard they can't do anything.

[BoD[6-4]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

Your point is?

You not having fun defeating or even playing against certain decks is related to "decks that stop you completely from playing" how?

He kept making claims about decks that build full boards of negates, I asked him to name those decks and name those negates, he never did, so for all intents and purposes, he can't prove his claim.

Guess I pretended too much from you. The point is kinda easy: people spending lot of minutes in their solitaire combo and then surrenders instantly if you're able to play your turn do exist and plague the game and such solitaire combo should be killed as well and asap

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

As for the decks you listed, other than Drytron and Endymion/Pendulum Magicians, none of those decks put up any "full board of negates".

- Swordsoul: Chixiao + Baronne
- Eldlich: floogates
- HERO decks: OTK deck
- Drytron Herald: true, but nobody plays it anymore
- Utopia: OTK deck
- Floo: floodgates
- Six Samurai: do they even have an end board that's not a Nibiru token?
- Numeron: OTK deck
- Pendulum: Probably? After losing Halq I haven't seen anybody make big board with them that wasn't an OTK deck
- Raidraptor: can't say, never saw this one yet
- Birds: UDF is the only negate, and it's a monster negate, not even omni negate, Essemblue Robin isn't a negate, Double Dragon Lords isn't a negate, and barrier statue, while annoying, isn't a negate.

So yea, your argument holds as much water as a sieve.

Whatever you say doesn't change the fact that in my experience player using such decks just want to play alone: whenever I was able to play they surrendered after just few seconds of me playing. So still, long combo decks or whatever people use for playing a solitaire match should be killed as well

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

I'll be very frank with you, you're on some really heavy confirmation bias.

Have I met some people doing that? Mostly in gold tbh, at the higher ranks, people play until their defeat is imminent, so I often get 5-7 turn duels.

Oh right, that reminds me, you're on of those guys that intentionally stays in gold. I wonder if there's a "shadow que" or however that'd be named, where it makes people who intentionally surrender a lot to stay in Silver/Gold play against others who do the same more often. A lot of what you're describing are players that would do that, surrender just to stay in gold and only play when they can win easily, and since that's your behavior too, you might get put against them more often than normal people, which would basically mean you're in a situation of your own doing.

Then again, that's just a speculation, but considering we have people who on the forum confirmed they play meta decks but actively surrender to stay in gold, it could be an actual possibility.

[TormentedSalad]

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

I'll be very frank with you, you're on some really heavy confirmation bias.

Have I met some people doing that? Mostly in gold tbh, at the higher ranks, people play until their defeat is imminent, so I often get 5-7 turn duels.

Oh right, that reminds me, you're on of those guys that intentionally stays in gold. I wonder if there's a "shadow que" or however that'd be named, where it makes people who intentionally surrender a lot to stay in Silver/Gold play against others who do the same more often. A lot of what you're describing are players that would do that, surrender just to stay in gold and only play when they can win easily, and since that's your behavior too, you might get put against them more often than normal people, which would basically mean you're in a situation of your own doing.

Then again, that's just a speculation, but considering we have people who on the forum confirmed they play meta decks but actively surrender to stay in gold, it could be an actual possibility.

i mean maybe that would explain why I encounter so much meta on the FTK account since i surrender when into the void throws my hand away or whatevers happening since most of those decks dont come with a gameplan mostly just me trying to trigger alt win cons

[BoD[6-4]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

surrender just to stay in gold and only play when they can win easily, and since that's your behavior too

and I can stop reading here since you clearly aren't able to read properly what I say.

I'll tell this for the last time. I don't care about winning or losing as long as the match is actually. Utopia players (for example) are usually easy wins, but waiting 5 minutes for their combo, then having them surrendering 30 seconds later my turns begin isn't fun, that's just annoying. Same goes for six samurais.

Basing on your opinion I should rank up so I can face much more decks that are boring to face. Plus for ranking up I still should sit watching other people playing and honestly if I boot a game it's for playing not for watching someone else playing.

Plus there's no need to surrender for not ranking up while being in gold 5, so such people do want only to play alone and having their opponents just watching them doing their garbage stuff

In my experience Swordsouls players are always players that wants to play alone only, so they do not deserve any of my time, if I see them I quit, I already know that the match will be boring as f, so no need to waste time in watching them playing (winning without playing/having fun is a waste of time). Today I did a really fun match that consisted in a fun exchange of blows (do not remember what my opponent was playing but it sure wasn't in the list and he didn't take more than 2 minutes to end his turns).

And since I'm not incoherent I won't be using any of the deck listed there: if I find annoying to face them then they're annoying to play too for me.

So once again: match where I win by playing only 30 seconds after my opponents spent 5x the amount of time sucks, same goes if I lose such match, so (if you read carefully but I don't guess so) win or lose does NOT matter (caps so maybe you notice that "NOT") to me.

U do understand now? or is it still too difficult

Now I'm expecting/waiting for the "nah you just whine", "you're just impatient" (as if matches 30 minutes long where I just play 1 minutes are ok), "git good" or the "kill yourself" coming from that friend of yours if he got unbanned

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Diposting pertama kali oleh TormentedSalad:

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

I'll be very frank with you, you're on some really heavy confirmation bias.

Have I met some people doing that? Mostly in gold tbh, at the higher ranks, people play until their defeat is imminent, so I often get 5-7 turn duels.

Oh right, that reminds me, you're on of those guys that intentionally stays in gold. I wonder if there's a "shadow que" or however that'd be named, where it makes people who intentionally surrender a lot to stay in Silver/Gold play against others who do the same more often. A lot of what you're describing are players that would do that, surrender just to stay in gold and only play when they can win easily, and since that's your behavior too, you might get put against them more often than normal people, which would basically mean you're in a situation of your own doing.

Then again, that's just a speculation, but considering we have people who on the forum confirmed they play meta decks but actively surrender to stay in gold, it could be an actual possibility.

i mean maybe that would explain why I encounter so much meta on the FTK account since i surrender when into the void throws my hand away or whatevers happening since most of those decks dont come with a gameplan mostly just me trying to trigger alt win cons

I know a lot of PvP games have different types of hidden metrics, Dota has the "behavior score", LoL has something but I don't think they ever named it, etc, that tries to make toxic players play with eachother, while the rest get "healthier" games, so I wouldn't be surprised if Master Duel has something too.

[BoD[6-4]]

Oh wow, I had a not annoying win (even if not fun since only me played) against sowrdsouls: I did him 7700 damage and he could not activate effects cause I had masquerade on the field. Guess this will be my only not annoying match I'll ever have against Swordsouls. if he wasn't a sowrdsoul player i'd feel bad for him

[TormentedSalad]

Diposting pertama kali oleh C.C. アヌビス:

Diposting pertama kali oleh TormentedSalad:

i mean maybe that would explain why I encounter so much meta on the FTK account since i surrender when into the void throws my hand away or whatevers happening since most of those decks dont come with a gameplan mostly just me trying to trigger alt win cons

I know a lot of PvP games have different types of hidden metrics, Dota has the "behavior score", LoL has something but I don't think they ever named it, etc, that tries to make toxic players play with eachother, while the rest get "healthier" games, so I wouldn't be surprised if Master Duel has something too.

Yeah i suppose if a system like that exists only degenerate people wanting to bully low ranked players have to put up with me playing nonsense reversal quiz and FTK decks

[Aldain]

Diposting pertama kali oleh merkyofayceMF:

If you really hate maxx c THAT much, experiment with running Droll and Lock Bird. .

Using Droll and Lock Bird on your own turn to counter Maxx C is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Droll stops both players from adding anything from the main deck to the hand, which also stops you from doing basically anything too.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aldain:

Diposting pertama kali oleh merkyofayceMF:

If you really hate maxx c THAT much, experiment with running Droll and Lock Bird. .

Using Droll and Lock Bird on your own turn to counter Maxx C is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Droll stops both players from adding anything from the main deck to the hand, which also stops you from doing basically anything too.

There's a reason people don't play Droll too often, and it has more to do with the fact that most decks are more likely to special summon directly from deck than add to hand. Droll doesn't stop that from happening.

Admittedly, the symmetrical nature is probably also a factor. That's why Shifter is nowhere near as common as such a backbreaking effect otherwise would be, after all.

[JKArtorias]

I love letting my opponents play Yurgo

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2881594936

[Lazer]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Taka:

Diposting pertama kali oleh TormentedSalad:

Traptrix control can use extra too that's konami just deciding to print ones that don't and really there is only so many ways you can print trap decks without them being basicly the same thing they did great ones like dinomorphia also unfun yes because eldlich is so different just because you hate it doesn't make it so players made eldlich what it is i love him but ♥♥♥♥ is it boring I tried it and making eldlich fun is the same as hitting surrender

I just wish the players didn’t just go with ‘Man, I wonder how many floodgates can I use’ in eldlich
Eldlich was supposed to be a support for zombie

it still is. But glad Konamis original intentions failed and we got one of the best coolest archtypes that works with drawing 5 random traps and still wins against solitaire. The reason why Eldlich is not as good with playing other Zombies is because how weak extra deck Zombie monsters are in the link department for example. You use Eldelixire cool what are you going to special summon with it from the extra deck when nothing good is Zombie?

Diposting pertama kali oleh TormentedSalad:

Traptrix control can use extra too that's konami just deciding to print ones that don't and really there is only so many ways you can print trap decks without them being basicly the same thing they did great ones like dinomorphia also unfun yes because eldlich is so different just because you hate it doesn't make it so players made eldlich what it is i love him but ♥♥♥♥ is it boring I tried it and making eldlich fun is the same as hitting surrender

Thats archetype specific just like Skystriker, I am talking about generic extra deck support clearly made for control players. ''Banish 3-5 traps in your graveyard special summon X from your extra deck'' Would be impossible to use for a combo player, they dont do it because they are biased. And even whats already there its mediocre, Xyz level 10 are trash in comparison to Accesscode Talker who basically ends the game if you have no floodgate. Spirit charmers link 2 super mediocre as well.

Sorry that Eldlich takes turns and you cant handle this playstyle