Hand Traps don't solve anything

[Sov]

They just make already broken decks more powerful while providing no benefit lower tier decks because more powerful decks don't need additional disruption. It basically makes the game, most hand traps wins the game.

Remove Impermanence, Ash Blossom, Max C and Effect Veiler from the game as people just use these as an excuse to justify YGO's toxic power creep over the years.

Also I love to see how many cards have compensation effects when removed from the field now, calling it "recovery", no, its just so little jimmy doesn't cry when their boss monster leaves the field. Basically pay 2 win.

[Aldain]

This thread's going to be a mess.

But I do agree somewhat, hand traps are a band-aid that is desperately attempting to hold a game pushed well past the bounds of reason by power creep together in some fashion.

YGO is perpetually one pack away from being turned into a near unplayable mess, look at the Splightpocalypse, those things hit tier 0 so hard Konami finally had to kill frogs and Halq.

[Sov]

Originally posted by Aldain:

This thread's going to be a mess.

But I do agree somewhat, hand traps are a band-aid that is desperately attempting to hold a game pushed well past the bounds of reason by power creep together in some fashion.

YGO is perpetually one pack away from being turned into a near unplayable mess, look at the Splightpocalypse, those things hit tier 0 so hard Konami finally had to kill frogs and Halq.

I agree, but that's because Konami are so scared of the arrogant little meta-monsters they've created leaving so they lose money, they cannot address the massive balance problems they've made in the game.

Its ironic, meta-monsters are the first people to say "its a skill issue" or any rediculous rubbish they come out with. But they are the FIRST people to cry about "muh investment" whenever Konami actually has the guts to punish them by banning a card they use.

They are usually just the selfish, moronic people that don't understand that accessibility in a game is just as important as having "high level play". If new people don't come in, the game stagnates into toxic gatekeeping.

Nobody finds losing turn 1 fun and its inherently toxic in the game. Nobody likes having their turn interrupted 50 million times in a duel when its supposed to be their turn. But these people are so arrogant and hopelessly slaved to Konami that they refuse to let themselves see that because the moment they do, they accept the fact that the amount of time they've wasted their life on this shows how sad it is.

Sad reality but a true one.

This is why people are like this, high level players have to tell lower level ones they "don't deserve an opinion" because its the only way they feel self-worth in their lives. Its like school bullies, its exactly the way they last out because they have sad home lives. A lot of people do this to compensate for the amount of time they've wasted their time on a game that doesn't matter in the real world.

[Bad Distraction Carnifex]

Yeah, game is pretty much "draw the outs" simulator 2022. Sure it can be fun but the need for almost uninterruptible counters to play from the hand during your opponent's turn is a symptom of overly generic boss monsters.

If you think about it, if most of the floodgate/negate extra deck monsters were more specific to an archetype they'd be harder to bring out, outside of their archetype. This makes balancing the game a lot easier. Sure you'd still run into issues but hand traps wouldn't need to be any crazier than stuff like Effect Veiler and going 2nd cards would become the answer, like DRNM, Droplet, Evenly Matches, Kaijus, etc.

But that train left the station back in the late synchro era, beack when Konami basically didn't make overpowered boss monsters that could be splashed into whatever. I mean the worst they had was basically Goyo Guardian, Brionac (sp?), DSF (pre eratta) and Trishula.

Konami should have kept it that way in terms of archetype monsters being required for extra deck monsters, then you could go ham with the nutty boss monsters and it's okay because if the archetype it belongs to sucks, it's basically going to never be a problem. This is why #86 was okay until Shadow Gossip was made + decks became fast enough to get both out in 1 turn. Also means you can't start stacking archetype boss monsters easily.

[Sov]

Originally posted by Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Yeah, game is pretty much "draw the outs" simulator 2022. Sure it can be fun but the need for almost uninterruptible counters to play from the hand during your opponent's turn is a symptom of overly generic boss monsters.

If you think about it, if most of the floodgate/negate extra deck monsters were more specific to an archetype they'd be harder to bring out, outside of their archetype. This makes balancing the game a lot easier. Sure you'd still run into issues but hand traps wouldn't need to be any crazier than stuff like Effect Veiler and going 2nd cards would become the answer, like DRNM, Droplet, Evenly Matches, Kaijus, etc.

But that train left the station back in the late synchro era, beack when Konami basically didn't make overpowered boss monsters that could be splashed into whatever. I mean the worst they had was basically Goyo Guardian, Brionac (sp?), DSF (pre eratta) and Trishula.

Yeah, its sad how much Yugioh has declined since its glory days.

[Bad Distraction Carnifex]

Originally posted by Sovereign:

Originally posted by Bad Distraction Carnifex:

Yeah, game is pretty much "draw the outs" simulator 2022. Sure it can be fun but the need for almost uninterruptible counters to play from the hand during your opponent's turn is a symptom of overly generic boss monsters.

If you think about it, if most of the floodgate/negate extra deck monsters were more specific to an archetype they'd be harder to bring out, outside of their archetype. This makes balancing the game a lot easier. Sure you'd still run into issues but hand traps wouldn't need to be any crazier than stuff like Effect Veiler and going 2nd cards would become the answer, like DRNM, Droplet, Evenly Matches, Kaijus, etc.

But that train left the station back in the late synchro era, beack when Konami basically didn't make overpowered boss monsters that could be splashed into whatever. I mean the worst they had was basically Goyo Guardian, Brionac (sp?), DSF (pre eratta) and Trishula.

Yeah, its sad how much Yugioh has declined since its glory days.

I'm fine with the changes, I like the game being this fast. But not when your deck can basically 1 card combo out 6 negates or a "You can't play the game anymore" boss monster that's practically impossible to play around.

I've been around since almost the beginning and progression/new mechanics are awesome, what isn't awesome is how splashable all the extra deck monsters are in combination with how fast the game has become. Together they create a really sacky gamestate, there's almost no back n forth anymore and when there is it's one player systematically shutting the other one down with single cards.

I mean what did Konami think was going to happen when you combine those two? Now they're trying to print stuff that can be activated from the hand because nothing else works anymore lol.

And the worst part...where does it go from here? Decks that have tiny engines and mass hand traps are already strong and if the game speeds up anymore, if there are more 1 card combos, that means more room for handtraps usually...so do you make double hand traps where they activate in the hand then can activate in the grave? There's not much more room to powercreep, we're already in mass negates 1 card combo territory, barely...but we're here.

[Mista4oewun4oe]

Originally posted by Sovereign:

They just make already broken decks more powerful while providing no benefit lower tier decks because more powerful decks don't need additional disruption. It basically makes the game, most hand traps wins the game.

Remove Impermanence, Ash Blossom, Max C and Effect Veiler from the game as people just use these as an excuse to justify YGO's toxic power creep over the years.

Also I love to see how many cards have compensation effects when removed from the field now, calling it "recovery", no, its just so little jimmy doesn't cry when their boss monster leaves the field. Basically pay 2 win.

I gotta admit and I agree. As long time Yugioh player myself hand traps in general are all but ineffective imo. You may delay your opponent for turn or two if your lucky. But for the most part they yield no advantage. I've been playing the game on and off since release but I'd be lying if I came out and said this game has no issues from a game play standpoint.

[KenderMystic]

Take away the handtraps, and the combo decks go completely uninterrupted. Handtraps are not the specific problem - to get the game in the state that you truly want, you'd have to reformat the entire game. And at that point, you're better off either finding personal friend groups or trying another game entirely.

[Sheepman Dueling]

I really don't get why people with this many complaints about Yugioh don't just find another game to play that they'll enjoy more. I understand minor complaints and I have my own, but these threads are always "this game sucks and hasn't been good since 2003". Just go somewhere else.

Not sure why I find it so funny but lol calling floaters a "compensation effect"

[Rainy days.]

Originally posted by Sovereign:

people just use these as an excuse to justify YGO's toxic power creep over the years.

Nah, this is also how Konami designs cards.
It’s tooootally balanced if a piss-easy-to-summon Extra Deck monster can spit out near-invincible boss monsters with little to no dedication/drawbacks/etc, so long as Veiler/Maxx/etc exists.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originally posted by Rainy days.:

Originally posted by Sovereign:

people just use these as an excuse to justify YGO's toxic power creep over the years.

Nah, this is also how Konami designs cards.
It’s tooootally balanced if a piss-easy-to-summon Extra Deck monster can spit out near-invincible boss monsters with little to no dedication/drawbacks/etc, so long as Veiler/Maxx/etc exists.

If enough things are overpowered, then that's technically a form of balance. And since that's the form of balance Konami has been aiming for since 2010 or so, any complaints are falling upon deaf ears I know for a fact that Konami doesn't even look at these boards in the first place.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

If enough things are overpowered, then that's technically a form of balance. And since that's the form of balance Konami has been aiming for since 2010 or so, any complaints are falling upon deaf ears I know for a fact that Konami doesn't even look at these boards in the first place.

I mean we all know Konami doesn't look here.

This is more going to a bar and getting smashed on hard liquor because we don't know what else to do.

But realistically speaking it's not like there's enough things that are overpowered if you think on it, it's more like things like HalqDon (or Don in general really but Halq makes it even worse) give the illusion that rouge decks are stronger than they are when in reality they're just being hard carried by a broken engine that help out more powerful decks just as much if not more in other ways.

There's no real form of balance accounting for how strong things tend to be able to have the room to spare to cram more outs and extenders because their engine is already strong enough that it has space to spare, or things like how Maxx C works even in decks that can special summon spam and thanks to things like Crossout Designator are encouraged to be ran in said lean engines to counteract it on top of still working in mirror matches or against similar combos in similar decks.

[Otto]

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

Originally posted by Rainy days.:

Nah, this is also how Konami designs cards.
It’s tooootally balanced if a piss-easy-to-summon Extra Deck monster can spit out near-invincible boss monsters with little to no dedication/drawbacks/etc, so long as Veiler/Maxx/etc exists.

If enough things are overpowered, then that's technically a form of balance. And since that's the form of balance Konami has been aiming for since 2010 or so, any complaints are falling upon deaf ears I know for a fact that Konami doesn't even look at these boards in the first place.

I feel like the game really went to ♥♥♥♥ around late 2016, early 2017. Like, the whole Scorpio/Cobra/BF debacle was such a detriment to the game's health by enabling the whole push for engines over archetypes. (Why Cobra didn't lock you into plants, I will never know, but it's left such a stain on predaplants as a whole; even moreso now that Verte's a card)

Originally posted by Aldain:

This is more going to a bar and getting smashed on hard liquor because we don't know what else to do.

But hey, I'll drink to that

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originally posted by Otto:

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

If enough things are overpowered, then that's technically a form of balance. And since that's the form of balance Konami has been aiming for since 2010 or so, any complaints are falling upon deaf ears I know for a fact that Konami doesn't even look at these boards in the first place.

I feel like the game really went to ♥♥♥♥ around late 2016, early 2017. Like, the whole Scorpio/Cobra/BF debacle was such a detriment to the game's health by enabling the whole push for engines over archetypes. (Why Cobra didn't lock you into plants, I will never know, but it's left such a stain on predaplants as a whole; even moreso now that Verte's a card)

Originally posted by Aldain:

This is more going to a bar and getting smashed on hard liquor because we don't know what else to do.

But hey, I'll drink to that :Pigeon:

Predaplants can't lock you into plants because their boss monsters are dragons. Locking you into DARK would be barely a lock, but...

[Otto]

Originally posted by HeraldOfOpera:

Originally posted by Otto:

I feel like the game really went to ♥♥♥♥ around late 2016, early 2017. Like, the whole Scorpio/Cobra/BF debacle was such a detriment to the game's health by enabling the whole push for engines over archetypes. (Why Cobra didn't lock you into plants, I will never know, but it's left such a stain on predaplants as a whole; even moreso now that Verte's a card)



But hey, I'll drink to that

Predaplants can't lock you into plants because their boss monsters are dragons. Locking you into DARK would be barely a lock, but...

Raf was only what, 4 months out? when INOV dropped. Wouldn’t have been the last time a boss monster dropped after the support came first. Also could have locked into dragons or plants as opposed to just plants. Either way, that and Zoo were probably the start of all this ♥♥♥♥

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Otto:

I feel like the game really went to ♥♥♥♥ around late 2016, early 2017. Like, the whole Scorpio/Cobra/BF debacle was such a detriment to the game's health by enabling the whole push for engines over archetypes. (Why Cobra didn't lock you into plants, I will never know, but it's left such a stain on predaplants as a whole; even moreso now that Verte's a card)

My personal turning point in when the game started to clearly break under the pressure of the powercreep was around the Zoodiac era, which falls in line with that timeframe as well.

It was right around this point when that generic engine thing started becoming more and more noticeable.

...Then MR4 happened and everything REALLY turned to clown world.

The question right now is when will we reach the "Dragon Ruler F/L nuke" point that happened in the past, because man does it feel like we're fast approaching a similar point in terms of meta imo.