How many hand traps do you actually need to get past turn 1?

[Mayakashiii]

I guess 1x Ash isn't enough in this meta to get past turn 1. Might as well insta-concede with such a hand. You'll disrupt and they'll just keep summoning for another 15 minutes straight.

How many hand traps do you need in starting hand to make it worth playing the game?

[Aldain]

Throw down Maxx C and pray it doesn't get negated, or have Lightning Storm/Raigeki and DRnM/Droplet in hand.

Otherwise hope your opponent has no extenders and Ash the choke point.

Occasionally throw Nibiru at them.

[Silamon]

30 hand traps and 30 starters is the perfect combination from what I have seen.

[Blank]

60 hand traps.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Blank:

60 hand traps.

The best response.

You'll automatically win if your opponent rage quits from not being able to do anything.

...Wait that's just combo decks with extra steps.

[wildnike]

Like most things, there is no easy answer.

On a surface level, probability looks like it is on your side. Consider a deck of 40 cards. Let's say you have 10 outs -- be they kaijus, handtraps, etc. The probability of you getting at least 2 outs with a 5-card hand is 27%. So around 1/4 games you will end up with 2 outs.

However, if you're hoping to win consistently, this is not likely the probability you want to see. If you played 100 games that means only around 25% of the time are you going to start with a set of outs you think is adequate. And that isn't even accounting for if you are going first or second, where second is the time you're looking for such a hand more often.

Further, there is the question of if your outs even matter. Drew Maxx C? It's Floo, so useless. Nib? Opponent gets a Baronne out early. Got an Ash? Your opponent is running outs as well, as if they have 2 Crossout and 2 CBTG they have a 35% chance of having 1 of those in opening hand assuming a 40 card deck, so you're SOL. Often times opening hands drawn from meta decks don't die to a single handtrap, if they did they wouldn't be meta. So if they 1-for-1 your out with one of their counter outs, you are not sitting pretty.

So, increase the out size then? To 15 perhaps and hope for 3 outs? That's just under 21% of a chance happening with 5 cards, for a 40 card deck. While such a hand may forge itself every now and again you open yourself up to far more bricking depending on your deck.

We can run numbers with different decks, proportions, etc, but at the end of the day we aren't arriving at any kind of definitive conclusion other than you're going to need to look at your deck and decide what outs it can take in, as well as the fact that more often then not probability just won't be on your side.

There is a reason "draw the out" is both an ironic and unironic meme.

However, also remember not every deck you face is going to be a Rose Tenyi or a Virtual World, so the amount of times you need to have sufficient outs at opening hand likely is not that large, and it's just the duels against these extremely combo heavy decks tend to sting a lot more in the head.

[Silamon]

Originally posted by wildnike:

Like most things, there is no easy answer.

On a surface level, probability looks like it is on your side. Consider a deck of 40 cards. Let's say you have 10 outs -- be they kaijus, handtraps, etc. The probability of you getting at least 2 outs with a 5-card hand is 27%. So around 1/4 games you will end up with 2 outs.

However, if you're hoping to win consistently, this is not likely the probability you want to see. If you played 100 games that means only around 25% of the time are you going to start with a set of outs you think is adequate. And that isn't even accounting for if you are going first or second, where second is the time you're looking for such a hand more often.

Further, there is the question of if your outs even matter. Drew Maxx C? It's Floo, so useless. Nib? Opponent gets a Baronne out early. Got an Ash? Your opponent is running outs as well, as if they have 2 Crossout and 2 CBTG they have a 35% chance of having 1 of those in opening hand assuming a 40 card deck, so you're SOL. Often times opening hands drawn from meta decks don't die to a single handtrap, if they did they wouldn't be meta. So if they 1-for-1 your out with one of their counter outs, you are not sitting pretty.

So, increase the out size then? To 15 perhaps and hope for 3 outs? That's just under 21% of a chance happening with 5 cards, for a 40 card deck. While such a hand may forge itself every now and again you open yourself up to far more bricking depending on your deck.

We can run numbers with different decks, proportions, etc, but at the end of the day we aren't arriving at any kind of definitive conclusion other than you're going to need to look at your deck and decide what outs it can take in, as well as the fact that more often then not probability just won't be on your side.

There is a reason "draw the out" is both an ironic and unironic meme.

However, also remember not every deck you face is going to be a Rose Tenyi or a Virtual World, so the amount of times you need to have sufficient outs at opening hand likely is not that large, and it's just the duels against these extremely combo heavy decks tend to sting a lot more in the head.

The thing is, with all the crazy starters and combos we have now you can quite comfortable play a 60 card pile deck with 20 hand traps and a bunch of starters.

For example, any 1 cyberse monster can get you dpe+scythe lock, and if you draw enchantress or rite of aremesir you get adventure combo too.

So with 2 cards in hand, the rest can easily be hand traps without hurting you at all.

[Cinnamoon_dragon]

I would say 3+ will do the job - Ash, Impermanence and Nibiru, or Effect Veiler.
But if you spent that many cards in the first round, you are pretty vulnerable too (if you don't use Pot of Extravagance or Pot of Desires or your deck is so consistent that it can do a full combo with one card). One Skystriker player actually dropped 4 handtraps on me in the first and won the game

[Fatality]

You need to have at least 6 in your deck. I use 13 if impermanence and nibiru are considered hand traps.

[Papa Smurf]

if youre going against decks that can play though disruption then switch it up and use board brekers instead. Droplets, Kaijus, Sphere Mode, Lava Golem, Dark Ruler No More etc.

See this is why no Best of 3 is a bad thing.

[wildnike]

Originally posted by Silamon:

The thing is, with all the crazy starters and combos we have now you can quite comfortable play a 60 card pile deck with 20 hand traps and a bunch of starters.

For example, any 1 cyberse monster can get you dpe+scythe lock, and if you draw enchantress or rite of aremesir you get adventure combo too.

So with 2 cards in hand, the rest can easily be hand traps without hurting you at all.

You are absolutely correct. Assuming a 60 card deck, the probability your 5-card opening hand contains 2 of your 20 outs marks an improvement in chance from 27% to 34%. Moving from a 1/4 chance to a 1/3 chance.

However, there are two issues.

1. More outs does not mean always more counter power. Different outs do different things, and if you end up facing off against a deck like Floo where your drawn Maxx C and Kaiju are useless, you may be wishing you had a less cards so you had a chance to draw in maybe an Ash or an Imperm.

2. What decks can afford 60 cards? There are plenty of viable engines like Eldlich, DPE, and Adventure but what if a player wants to focus on a certain archetype? What if they do not want to play Cyberse or Phantom Knights? Can 60 card decks work with most playstyles? This is a genuine question since my experience in that front is limited, and it appears like a problem from my end.

Regardless, this whole probability debacle could be solved in almost its entirety with a... non-Bo1 format.

At least the first point is definitely sliced down. The game was designed for a side deck where you could swap cards to fit the situation. It would be far less of a frantic guessing game if people could rotate out cards to combat the deck they are against and adapt.

But of course, such is not the case, and as of now we have to work with what we got.

[Mayakashiii]

So what are the best tools vs. Floo?

Ash, Lancea and what else? It seems they keep summoning not matter what you do.

[Kissa]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Throw down Maxx C and pray it doesn't get negated, or have Lightning Storm/Raigeki and DRnM/Droplet in hand.

Otherwise hope your opponent has no extenders and Ash the choke point.

Occasionally throw Nibiru at them.

i don't think that its going to do very much. many of the popular cards like the chinese sounding ones are synchros

[Silamon]

Originally posted by Mayakashiii:

So what are the best tools vs. Floo?

Ash, Lancea and what else? It seems they keep summoning not matter what you do.

I'd say infinite imperm or effect veiler would be good choices against them, though they can dodge those with book of moon.

[CDI Mario]

Originally posted by Mayakashiii:

So what are the best tools vs. Floo?

Ash, Lancea and what else? It seems they keep summoning not matter what you do.

Droll and lock bird is by far the best vs Floo. The downsides to it are you cant add to hand on this turn either but unless you used maxx c that wont happen and either way Floo dodges max c so. Floo flop when they can only add 1 card to their hand for the entire turn

[R Valeman 37]

Originally posted by Mayakashiii:

I guess 1x Ash isn't enough in this meta to get past turn 1. Might as well insta-concede with such a hand. You'll disrupt and they'll just keep summoning for another 15 minutes straight.

How many hand traps do you need in starting hand to make it worth playing the game?

You cant and it not a skill issue. You can build counter deck but it wont wokr due to lack rules in YUGIOOH