Please explain

[Griffstanker]

Can someone explain to me why Imperial Order is now forbidden yet Harpie's Feather duster, Lightning storm, and Raigeki aren't? Yes, i understand Imperial order is a powerful card, but it's a trap card, so has to be set to activate it, and burns you 700 LP per turn and was limited before the new ban-list. However, other then Lighting storm who's only condition is you must not have any face-up cards on your side of the field, which is by no means hard, the other two have no conditions other then the fact that they are both currently limited. If they had some condition like not being able to battle this turn or lose LP equal to the number of cards destroyed x 500-1000 it would be understandable but as is, they make no sense.


Edit, this is viewing it from a defensive play stand-point as the Deck I personally used it in is a Paleozoic Deck, which has no means of defending itself from these kinds of cards.

[KenderMystic]

Because preventing people from playing cards to begin with is stronger than removing them, Trap Card or otherwise.

[Griffstanker]

Originally posted by KenderMystic:

Because preventing people from playing cards to begin with is stronger than removing them, Trap Card or otherwise.

But, it does not prevent monster effects from activating, thus creating a way out in that respect as there are a number of monster effects that can interrupt Imperial Order's effect in many ways. N ot to mention the numerous trap cards that can target the back row.

[TormentedSalad]

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

Originally posted by KenderMystic:

Because preventing people from playing cards to begin with is stronger than removing them, Trap Card or otherwise.

But, it does not prevent monster effects from activating, thus creating a way out in that respect as there are a number of monster effects that can interrupt Imperial Order's effect in many ways. N ot to mention the numerous trap cards that can target the back row.

So it's possible that your still just a troll but considering this reply maybe not

Imperial order is better than all those cards because there is no restriction on activating it it shuts off a third of the game and that third of the game happens to be most of the cards that are used to out traps. Just because there are trap cards that can beat it means nothing trap cards are so slow by the time you can do something about it damage has been done it gets especially bad when combined with other floodgates imperial order is more than capable of winning games by itself

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

Originally posted by KenderMystic:

Because preventing people from playing cards to begin with is stronger than removing them, Trap Card or otherwise.

But, it does not prevent monster effects from activating, thus creating a way out in that respect as there are a number of monster effects that can interrupt Imperial Order's effect in many ways. N ot to mention the numerous trap cards that can target the back row.

A lot of decks rely on spells to play the game. Anti Spell Fragrance has proven effective for similar reasons as IO despite being MUCH weaker. Locking them out of combo's for a turn is a death sentence. So unless they can hit it with a monster effect and THEN combo the game is over.

Do combo, set IO, activate at draw phase of opponent turn. Now they have to fight through all your negates without spells. That means no big board breakers because the good ones like Dark Ruler No More and Droplet are spells. No pots no spell searches which are oh so common and no board wipes. Basically if you are playing anything outside of a Sekka deck or a backrow deck like Eldlich the game is over the moment they flip it. Skill drain is similar in this regard but atleast the outs to skill drain can just be played from hand. No matter how you slice it the outs for IO are too slow to be viable.

Against IO you have to have gone first because only then can you set things up and make that slow trap speed actually mean something. When someone with IO goes first the games practically done for most decks.

[Griffstanker]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

But, it does not prevent monster effects from activating, thus creating a way out in that respect as there are a number of monster effects that can interrupt Imperial Order's effect in many ways. N ot to mention the numerous trap cards that can target the back row.

A lot of decks rely on spells to play the game. Anti Spell Fragrance has proven effective for similar reasons as IO despite being MUCH weaker. Locking them out of combo's for a turn is a death sentence. So unless they can hit it with a monster effect and THEN combo the game is over.

Do combo, set IO, activate at draw phase of opponent turn. Now they have to fight through all your negates without spells. That means no big board breakers because the good ones like Dark Ruler No More and Droplet are spells. No pots no spell searches which are oh so common and no board wipes. Basically if you are playing anything outside of a Sekka deck or a backrow deck like Eldlich the game is over the moment they flip it. Skill drain is similar in this regard but atleast the outs to skill drain can just be played from hand. No matter how you slice it the outs for IO are too slow to be viable.

Against IO you have to have gone first because only then can you set things up and make that slow trap speed actually mean something. When someone with IO goes first the games practically done for most decks.

But Imperial Order is only Spell Speed 2, which means, it CAN be countered by Spell Speed 2 Spells,which are normally Quick-play spells, such as Cosmic Cyclone, Twin Twister, Cyclone, and Mystical Flash typhoon to name a few as long as they are activated in the same chain. If IO was Spell Speed 3 however, which would mean it would have to be a Counter-Trap, only other Spell Speed 3 cards could negates or otherwise disrupt it's activation.

[Griffstanker]

Originally posted by TormentedSalad:

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

But, it does not prevent monster effects from activating, thus creating a way out in that respect as there are a number of monster effects that can interrupt Imperial Order's effect in many ways. N ot to mention the numerous trap cards that can target the back row.

So it's possible that your still just a troll but considering this reply maybe not

Imperial order is better than all those cards because there is no restriction on activating it it shuts off a third of the game and that third of the game happens to be most of the cards that are used to out traps. Just because there are trap cards that can beat it means nothing trap cards are so slow by the time you can do something about it damage has been done it gets especially bad when combined with other floodgates imperial order is more than capable of winning games by itself

The thing is, as I said in the reply to Merilirem, Quick-Play spells can counter it as long as they're in the same chain. another thing of note is one of the cards in the Yo-Kai Girls Archetype, the same Archetype that Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring is from, Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit, should also be able to negate and destroy the card as well.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

A lot of decks rely on spells to play the game. Anti Spell Fragrance has proven effective for similar reasons as IO despite being MUCH weaker. Locking them out of combo's for a turn is a death sentence. So unless they can hit it with a monster effect and THEN combo the game is over.

Do combo, set IO, activate at draw phase of opponent turn. Now they have to fight through all your negates without spells. That means no big board breakers because the good ones like Dark Ruler No More and Droplet are spells. No pots no spell searches which are oh so common and no board wipes. Basically if you are playing anything outside of a Sekka deck or a backrow deck like Eldlich the game is over the moment they flip it. Skill drain is similar in this regard but atleast the outs to skill drain can just be played from hand. No matter how you slice it the outs for IO are too slow to be viable.

Against IO you have to have gone first because only then can you set things up and make that slow trap speed actually mean something. When someone with IO goes first the games practically done for most decks.

But Imperial Order is only Spell Speed 2, which means, it CAN be countered by Spell Speed 2 Spells,which are normally Quick-play spells, such as Cosmic Cyclone, Twin Twister, Cyclone, and Mystical Flash typhoon to name a few as long as they are activated in the same chain. If IO was Spell Speed 3 however, which would mean it would have to be a Counter-Trap, only other Spell Speed 3 cards could negates or otherwise disrupt it's activation.

True but those cards don't see play for good reason. The current game state is one where backrow removal just isn't that useful. The chances of someone having an MST in Masterduel are so low it may as well not be a thing. The problem is that the times you actually want backrow removal you want to run a lightning storm or harpies because they have actual impact if they hit. Not to mention they become entirely worthless if you miss your chance. Remember we do not have side decking. Its Bo1 format.

See the problem here is that the counter plays are too difficult in practice. Rhongo got indirectly hit for similar reasons. There are outs they are just too unreasonable. IO is a card that just flips and wins games for no actual cost and can stay on field for 11 turns. Thats just too much.

Floodgates like IO need setup. They need actual costs. 700 LP isn't a real cost. By the time it matters you have already gotten more than enough value.

[jashinsamael]

because by modern meta standard, most game was decided by the turn 1 player whether he/she able to create solid board. And IO able to make oppressive board even more oppressive with little drawback.

ofc in this case Anti Spell Fragrance may able to give the same result, but ASF had to be activated before the main phase so the enemy already know that the spell play is restricted, while at the other hand IO can be played in response of enemy spell which also serves as cheap negate, giving you a +1

as for harpie, raigeki, and storm, those cards are considered turn 2 play, and help the 2nd turn player to break the oppressive board, if anything having them on turn 1 will not help the turn player to progress his/her board.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

Originally posted by TormentedSalad:

So it's possible that your still just a troll but considering this reply maybe not

Imperial order is better than all those cards because there is no restriction on activating it it shuts off a third of the game and that third of the game happens to be most of the cards that are used to out traps. Just because there are trap cards that can beat it means nothing trap cards are so slow by the time you can do something about it damage has been done it gets especially bad when combined with other floodgates imperial order is more than capable of winning games by itself

The thing is, as I said in the reply to Merilirem, Quick-Play spells can counter it as long as they're in the same chain. another thing of note is one of the cards in the Yo-Kai Girls Archetype, the same Archetype that Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring is from, Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit, should also be able to negate and destroy the card as well.

Ghost Ogre can't.

For spells and traps, the card needs to already be face up on the field when it activates it's effect. IO only goes face up when it activates, and such Ghost Ogre can't deal with it.

[Griffstanker]

Originally posted by C.C. アヌビス:

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

The thing is, as I said in the reply to Merilirem, Quick-Play spells can counter it as long as they're in the same chain. another thing of note is one of the cards in the Yo-Kai Girls Archetype, the same Archetype that Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring is from, Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit, should also be able to negate and destroy the card as well.

Ghost Ogre can't.

For spells and traps, the card needs to already be face up on the field when it activates it's effect. IO only goes face up when it activates, and such Ghost Ogre can't deal with it.

ok, thanks for clarifying

[Exvalcore]

Secret Village's arguably better, opinion.
A Continuous Card is hard to search out.

Just Errata Imperial Order, Continuous.

Negate a spell card by paying 700 LP.
on your Standby Phase banish this if
2 or more spells have been negated
during either of the players last turn.
also this effect cannot be prevented.

[TormentedSalad]

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

Originally posted by TormentedSalad:

So it's possible that your still just a troll but considering this reply maybe not

Imperial order is better than all those cards because there is no restriction on activating it it shuts off a third of the game and that third of the game happens to be most of the cards that are used to out traps. Just because there are trap cards that can beat it means nothing trap cards are so slow by the time you can do something about it damage has been done it gets especially bad when combined with other floodgates imperial order is more than capable of winning games by itself

The thing is, as I said in the reply to Merilirem, Quick-Play spells can counter it as long as they're in the same chain. another thing of note is one of the cards in the Yo-Kai Girls Archetype, the same Archetype that Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring is from, Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit, should also be able to negate and destroy the card as well.

ok so exactly have a quick play spell to respond or potentially be entirely shut out of the game? is that what your telling me and ghost ogre cant hit order it doesnt activate to pay a cost I would even argue royal decree is a terrible card too its simply not complained about because it doesnt have synergy with other floodgates

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Exvalcore:

Secret Village's arguably better, opinion.
A Continuous Card is hard to search out.

Just Errata Imperial Order, Continuous.

Negate a spell card by paying 700 LP.
on your Standby Phase banish this if
2 or more spells have been negated
during either of the players last turn.
also this effect cannot be prevented.

Secret village is like Horus the Black Flame Dragon Lv8. It has requirements that make it ok or in Horus's case, not worth playing in any serious deck.

IO's problem is that its just too good.

Also you just made an entirely new card. Thats more of a retrain and its still crazy since its double spell negates for a bargain price. Completely generic too. You also didn't make it mandatory from what i can see so now its even crazier because it won't stop your own spells.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by Exvalcore:

Secret Village's arguably better, opinion.
A Continuous Card is hard to search out.

Just Errata Imperial Order, Continuous.

Negate a spell card by paying 700 LP.
on your Standby Phase banish this if
2 or more spells have been negated
during either of the players last turn.
also this effect cannot be prevented.

That's even more broken. Not as much for floodgate decks but for combo decks.

You realize people are willingly paying 4000 LP for cards like Destrudo, Piri Reis Map or A HERO Lives, right?

Assuming I activated a Destrudo during my turn, I'm at 4000 LP, beside my big ass board, I can negate up to 5 spells, and it doesn't matter that you used more than 2, you're dead anyway.

And best part, if for some reason I can't OTK you, with your text, I don't have to negate my own spells.

So yea, you somehow managed to make it even more broken.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by TormentedSalad:

Originally posted by Griffstanker:

The thing is, as I said in the reply to Merilirem, Quick-Play spells can counter it as long as they're in the same chain. another thing of note is one of the cards in the Yo-Kai Girls Archetype, the same Archetype that Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring is from, Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit, should also be able to negate and destroy the card as well.

ok so exactly have a quick play spell to respond or potentially be entirely shut out of the game? is that what your telling me and ghost ogre cant hit order it doesnt activate to pay a cost I would even argue royal decree is a terrible card too its simply not complained about because it doesnt have synergy with other floodgates

Royal Decree isn't complained about because backrow/traps do not matter in modern Yugioh. Eldlich might be scary or suck to play against for certain people but its not actually a big deal. You just wouldn't build your deck to counter it specifically. If everyone ran Royal Decree backrow decks would fade out entirely. We won't though because its a worthless card against 90% of decks. If the opponent isn't running a backrow deck your probably getting a 1 for 2 trade at best.

The Meta and general game state has A LOT to do with whats ok and whats not. Maxx C is crazy but wouldn't see any play if an Eldlich/Flowandereeze/Monarch Meta.