baroness de fleur mustr be banned

[76561198434793607]

i insist...there is so much cards you can not defeat like baroness de fleur. blue eyes rituals also too!

[Silamon]

Originally posted by βumble:

The correct reason to ban baronne isn't "she's unbeatable" it's because she's too generic and can be put into every deck that can make a level 10 synchro which is basically all of them that don't ED lock you.

The Blue Eyes ritual monsters are trash though, not only are they Blue-eyes monsters but they're Rituals which are almost unplayable outside of very niche cases (Drytron, which isn't even that good right now either.)

I'm a big advocate of banning generic boss monsters (and combo extenders like Halq/Auroradon (RIP BOZO)).

Then we need to ban Accesscode, Borrelsword, Appalousa, and every other strong generic monster too.

[Artuurs|HappyEaster]

Should it be banned? Yes
Will it get banned? Hell no.

[Yerc2]

Originally posted by Silamon:

Then we need to ban Accesscode, Borrelsword, Appalousa, and every other strong generic monster too.

Yes please.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by Silamon:

Originally posted by βumble:

The correct reason to ban baronne isn't "she's unbeatable" it's because she's too generic and can be put into every deck that can make a level 10 synchro which is basically all of them that don't ED lock you.

The Blue Eyes ritual monsters are trash though, not only are they Blue-eyes monsters but they're Rituals which are almost unplayable outside of very niche cases (Drytron, which isn't even that good right now either.)

I'm a big advocate of banning generic boss monsters (and combo extenders like Halq/Auroradon (RIP BOZO)).

Then we need to ban Accesscode, Borrelsword, Appalousa, and every other strong generic monster too.

They are indeed part of the same discussion. However they need to be discussed 1 by 1 to figure out if they are "too good" for generic cards. It doesn't take much for a generic card to be too good or to become worthless. Just being commonly used isn't enough on its own unless its in literally every deck with no downsides.

Its not as simple as its being presented by all parties involved is the point. Good generic cards are a must, they just can't be so good that they replace less generic options in decks capable of choosing those options. Barronne is famously in every swordsoul deck and being played more often than the actual bosses of that archetype. Thats the minimum needed to have a discussion.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Originally posted by Silamon:

Then we need to ban Accesscode, Borrelsword, Appalousa, and every other strong generic monster too.

They are indeed part of the same discussion. However they need to be discussed 1 by 1 to figure out if they are "too good" for generic cards. It doesn't take much for a generic card to be too good or to become worthless. Just being commonly used isn't enough on its own unless its in literally every deck with no downsides.

Its not as simple as its being presented by all parties involved is the point. Good generic cards are a must, they just can't be so good that they replace less generic options in decks capable of choosing those options. Barronne is famously in every swordsoul deck and being played more often than the actual bosses of that archetype. Thats the minimum needed to have a discussion.

Because Baronne is a card that is useful early game while both Chengying and Qixing Longyuan are cards that are better later in the duel.

If your opponent has no cards in the GY, even if you were to use Chixiao's effect to negate, Chengying can't activate to banish.

Qixing Longyuan does a lot of burn damage, and has minor disruption, but the burn damage is better later in the game or when going second rather than early game or when going first.

So it's not that "she's used more than their bosses", it's that she's a better opening play while their bosses are better at closing the game. They serve different purposes.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by C.C. アヌビス:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

They are indeed part of the same discussion. However they need to be discussed 1 by 1 to figure out if they are "too good" for generic cards. It doesn't take much for a generic card to be too good or to become worthless. Just being commonly used isn't enough on its own unless its in literally every deck with no downsides.

Its not as simple as its being presented by all parties involved is the point. Good generic cards are a must, they just can't be so good that they replace less generic options in decks capable of choosing those options. Barronne is famously in every swordsoul deck and being played more often than the actual bosses of that archetype. Thats the minimum needed to have a discussion.

Because Baronne is a card that is useful early game while both Chengying and Qixing Longyuan are cards that are better later in the duel.

If your opponent has no cards in the GY, even if you were to use Chixiao's effect to negate, Chengying can't activate to banish.

Qixing Longyuan does a lot of burn damage, and has minor disruption, but the burn damage is better later in the game or when going second rather than early game or when going first.

So it's not that "she's used more than their bosses", it's that she's a better opening play while their bosses are better at closing the game. They serve different purposes.

To be clear i wasn't advocating anything. Just saying that she see's a lot of play, more from what i have seen than either of them but yes thats due to her being a stronger opening play in general which results in her being present in a lot of games that didn't go far enough beyond the opening.

This is the kind of thing that needed to be discussed about all generic cards. Whether they are replacing cards they shouldn't, enforcing already unbreakable decks beyond reason or simply patching holes in a deck with no good answer of its own. That last one is the good one that generics should be used for. If i had to take a side i would say that Baronne is closer to the "good generic" side as she basically just says "if you can make a Lv10 Synchro you can defend yourself with me instead of dying". Though whether a generic Lv10 Synchro should have an Omni Negate on top of good stats and other effects is a little questionable. I certainly think she's at the top of what a generic card should be in 2022. The issue is that if an archetype needs to make a Lv10 Synchro it needs to be better than Baronne. She's not just good going first, she's just generally a good option. Anything weaker than the swordsoul Synchro's probably can't compete.

This leads into a whole discussion about power creep and balance though.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

Originally posted by Merilirem:

Originally posted by C.C. アヌビス:

Because Baronne is a card that is useful early game while both Chengying and Qixing Longyuan are cards that are better later in the duel.

If your opponent has no cards in the GY, even if you were to use Chixiao's effect to negate, Chengying can't activate to banish.

Qixing Longyuan does a lot of burn damage, and has minor disruption, but the burn damage is better later in the game or when going second rather than early game or when going first.

So it's not that "she's used more than their bosses", it's that she's a better opening play while their bosses are better at closing the game. They serve different purposes.

To be clear i wasn't advocating anything. Just saying that she see's a lot of play, more from what i have seen than either of them but yes thats due to her being a stronger opening play in general which results in her being present in a lot of games that didn't go far enough beyond the opening.

This is the kind of thing that needed to be discussed about all generic cards. Whether they are replacing cards they shouldn't, enforcing already unbreakable decks beyond reason or simply patching holes in a deck with no good answer of its own. That last one is the good one that generics should be used for. If i had to take a side i would say that Baronne is closer to the "good generic" side as she basically just says "if you can make a Lv10 Synchro you can defend yourself with me instead of dying". Though whether a generic Lv10 Synchro should have an Omni Negate on top of good stats and other effects is a little questionable. I certainly think she's at the top of what a generic card should be in 2022. The issue is that if an archetype needs to make a Lv10 Synchro it needs to be better than Baronne. She's not just good going first, she's just generally a good option. Anything weaker than the swordsoul Synchro's probably can't compete.

This leads into a whole discussion about power creep and balance though.

But then comes the other side of the problem, if generic cards are weaker than archetype specific bosses, what is there to prevent said deck from becoming the strongest meta deck?

If a deck relies on it's boss monsters for it's win condition, then the deck that can bring out the strongest boss monsters the most consistently will be the best deck.

However, if there are certain generic boss monsters that are strong, such as Baronne de Fleur, then more decks can keep up with the meta because they have a solid boss monster.

Look at VW for example, it's own archetypal boss, Shenshen, is good, but nothing special, and despite how easily and consistently VW can bring out boss monsters, the truth is that for levels 6, 9 and 12, there just aren't any good boss monsters the deck can summon. Shenshen is a recurring dimension fissure on legs, Geomathmech Final Sigma is a towers that does double battle damage when battling monsters. Sure, it could make Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss, but that's really cumbersome to make due to it requiring a dark synchro dragon, and for level 6, there's only 3 in the whole game, Moon Dragon Quilla, which VW can't use due to Supai being the needed tuner, Red Rising Dragon, which again, due to it's tuner requirement, VW can't use it, leaving us with only Muddy Mudragon, and no, VW can't use level 1 and 2 monsters to help out.

VW is only viable as a deck due to cards like Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon, El Shaddoll Winda, Invoked Caliga and other outside support, as if it had access only to it's own boss monsters, it would be more or less the same tier as Mayakashi.

That's the duality of generic boss monsters. Sure, they are generic, so you'll see them everywhere, but if there weren't any good generic boss monsters, you'd see a huge drop in deck diversity. And yes, I'm aware that for some people, the end board is what they classify diversity after, instead of looking at a deck as a whole, so for those people, generic cards means no diversity.

[JKArtorias]

While i don't think Swordsoul having access to Baronne off Mo Ye and any Swordsoul card is quite fair. (I don't like Swordsoul) I think Baronne is a good standard of meta generic cards. A once negate and destroy with a reusable destruction effect.

Swordsoul being the vanguard of the meta decks. Jack of all trades master of none (without Protos or Scythe Lock existing) is an entirely different discussion that i don't care to have.

Good examples are Accesscode being a big beatstick with a good destruction effect that you only bring out for game or to beat over another beatstick and Borreload Savage Dragon. No destruction just a once per turn negation that relies on you having Links in the GY to get ammo for your effect.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by C.C. アヌビス:

Originally posted by Merilirem:

To be clear i wasn't advocating anything. Just saying that she see's a lot of play, more from what i have seen than either of them but yes thats due to her being a stronger opening play in general which results in her being present in a lot of games that didn't go far enough beyond the opening.

This is the kind of thing that needed to be discussed about all generic cards. Whether they are replacing cards they shouldn't, enforcing already unbreakable decks beyond reason or simply patching holes in a deck with no good answer of its own. That last one is the good one that generics should be used for. If i had to take a side i would say that Baronne is closer to the "good generic" side as she basically just says "if you can make a Lv10 Synchro you can defend yourself with me instead of dying". Though whether a generic Lv10 Synchro should have an Omni Negate on top of good stats and other effects is a little questionable. I certainly think she's at the top of what a generic card should be in 2022. The issue is that if an archetype needs to make a Lv10 Synchro it needs to be better than Baronne. She's not just good going first, she's just generally a good option. Anything weaker than the swordsoul Synchro's probably can't compete.

This leads into a whole discussion about power creep and balance though.

But then comes the other side of the problem, if generic cards are weaker than archetype specific bosses, what is there to prevent said deck from becoming the strongest meta deck?

If a deck relies on it's boss monsters for it's win condition, then the deck that can bring out the strongest boss monsters the most consistently will be the best deck.

However, if there are certain generic boss monsters that are strong, such as Baronne de Fleur, then more decks can keep up with the meta because they have a solid boss monster.

Look at VW for example, it's own archetypal boss, Shenshen, is good, but nothing special, and despite how easily and consistently VW can bring out boss monsters, the truth is that for levels 6, 9 and 12, there just aren't any good boss monsters the deck can summon. Shenshen is a recurring dimension fissure on legs, Geomathmech Final Sigma is a towers that does double battle damage when battling monsters. Sure, it could make Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss, but that's really cumbersome to make due to it requiring a dark synchro dragon, and for level 6, there's only 3 in the whole game, Moon Dragon Quilla, which VW can't use due to Supai being the needed tuner, Red Rising Dragon, which again, due to it's tuner requirement, VW can't use it, leaving us with only Muddy Mudragon, and no, VW can't use level 1 and 2 monsters to help out.

VW is only viable as a deck due to cards like Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon, El Shaddoll Winda, Invoked Caliga and other outside support, as if it had access only to it's own boss monsters, it would be more or less the same tier as Mayakashi.

That's the duality of generic boss monsters. Sure, they are generic, so you'll see them everywhere, but if there weren't any good generic boss monsters, you'd see a huge drop in deck diversity. And yes, I'm aware that for some people, the end board is what they classify diversity after, instead of looking at a deck as a whole, so for those people, generic cards means no diversity.

Indeed but thats a matter of balancing. Too strong and its effectively just a new archetype of its own that mixes well with everything else. Too weak and it becomes all about which archetypes are best in a more pure state. The important thing to remember is that generic cards do not need to be as good as archetype cards to see play because they are generic. Its the ability to combine them with other decks without investing in an entire engine that makes them good. Though to that effect i would also count generic engines as generic cards. Anything that goes into practically any deck is basically generic. The balancing act is one where the generic stuff needs to be worse than whats specific and Meta viable but only by a little.

Its not about making thing only use their own bosses. Its about making sure those bosses are playable at all. VW might use a lot of outside support but it does still use its own bosses. If a decks bosses are still losing out to properly balanced generic cards that just means that archetype needs support.

One thing also needs to be mentioned. There are different levels of generic. Stuff like Barronne is generic but only in the sense that it goes in Synchro decks. DPE however goes in everything making it more generic even though its a small group of cards rather than a single card. Adventure is the same thing. Basically you have everything from normal spells like Raigeki all the way to stuff that only works in its own archetype being played pure.

[C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫]

By that logic, Baronne is A-OK.

In all (good) decks she's played in, she's always played alongside the archetypal bosses. In Swordsoul she doesn't replay Chixiao, Chengying or Qixing Longyuan, in Dragon Link you were seeing her on the field alongside Borreload Savage Dragon, Borrelend Dragon, Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss, VW had her along Shenshen, etc.

Same applies for other generic bosses such as Accesscode Talker, DPE, Borrelsword Dragon, Borreload Savage Dragon.

While strong, they don't replace the archetypal bosses.

The only deck where I would actively try to make her instead of the archetypal bosses most of the time was my Rose Dragon deck, for the only reason that the Rose Dragons don't have a solid boss monsters. Black Rose Dragon is a black hole on legs, Moonlight Rose Dragon is eh at best, a bounce once per turn, and Crimson Rose Dragon has little value early in the game.

So yea, by the logic you gave there, cards like Baronne are fine, as the only decks in which they actually replace that deck's actual bosses are the very weak ones, which need support.

[Merilirem]

Originally posted by C.C. アヌビス:

By that logic, Baronne is A-OK.

In all (good) decks she's played in, she's always played alongside the archetypal bosses. In Swordsoul she doesn't replay Chixiao, Chengying or Qixing Longyuan, in Dragon Link you were seeing her on the field alongside Borreload Savage Dragon, Borrelend Dragon, Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss, VW had her along Shenshen, etc.

Same applies for other generic bosses such as Accesscode Talker, DPE, Borrelsword Dragon, Borreload Savage Dragon.

While strong, they don't replace the archetypal bosses.

The only deck where I would actively try to make her instead of the archetypal bosses most of the time was my Rose Dragon deck, for the only reason that the Rose Dragons don't have a solid boss monsters. Black Rose Dragon is a black hole on legs, Moonlight Rose Dragon is eh at best, a bounce once per turn, and Crimson Rose Dragon has little value early in the game.

So yea, by the logic you gave there, cards like Baronne are fine, as the only decks in which they actually replace that deck's actual bosses are the very weak ones, which need support.

Yea, i said it needed to be discussed, not that she specifically wasn't fine. All generic cards should be worked out and now hopefully others will see this conversation and reply to it with more info or accept it.

[Haven]

I lose maybe half of my games, but I can confidently say I have never lost to baroness. If someone summons baroness, it is usually because I have already foiled their original plan.

There are far stronger cards out there.

[King of the Abyss]

droplets & darkruler no more be like am I a joke to you?

[Knud den Store 🧙‍♂]

Originally posted by King of the Abyss:

droplets & darkruler no more be like am I a joke to you?

I play U.A. and I play Super Poly as a SoulSword hate card essentially because the board is always Chixiao + Baronne Pass and Soulsword cannot out Gilti without committing too much.

That said I am a Soul Sword Enjoyer now that people have migrated to Branded Fusion and oh boy do I love Sinister Sovereign.

[76561199403888577]

Ban the entire swordsoul archetype. Every other Duel my opponent is using the soul engine. Being able to summon both boss monsters first turn is annoying. Now i gotta run token collector just because ive run into so many soul decks. i understand it has a high win rate right now but come on man, is there no originality left anymore? My whole master duel run is me using rogue type decks just cuz its fun to not always win and actually have a 5+ turn duel. Ive had great duels where the turns were at 10-15. But losing to soul decks has become more than just annoying. Ban the entire archetype at this point.....