Can someone explain why effect doesn't trigger???

[FlintX]

Why The Dark Magicians effect for drawing a card does not trigger after you use Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning effect for banishing a monster on the field. I really can't see why.

Let's hear the specialists.

[JKArtorias]

He's not a spell or trap card.

[FlintX]

Originally posted by JKArtorias:

He's not a spell or trap card.

Well the card text goes like: Once per turn, if a Spell/Trap Card or EFFECT is activated (except during the Damage Step): You can draw 1 card, then if it was a Spell/Trap, you can Set it, and if it was a Trap or Quick-Play Spell, you can activate it this turn.

According to this wiki description https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/ the Effect term includes monster effects as well. Which one is wrong? Card or Wiki?

[JKArtorias]

Originally posted by FlintX:

Originally posted by JKArtorias:

He's not a spell or trap card.

Well the card text goes like: Once per turn, if a Spell/Trap Card or EFFECT is activated (except during the Damage Step): You can draw 1 card, then if it was a Spell/Trap, you can Set it, and if it was a Trap or Quick-Play Spell, you can activate it this turn.

Acording to this wiki description https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/ the Effect term includes monster effects as well. Which is wrong, card or wiki?

Idk man i'm learning Yugioh just like you, i read the or effect but the wording just seems weird. Wouldn't it be Spell/Trap or Monster Effect/ Activates a Card or Effect?

I love how complicated Yugioh can get but sometimes this ♥♥♥♥ is dumb like this, lol.

[dabestgamer]

Originally posted by FlintX:

Which one is wrong? Card or Wiki?

Neither. It's an error in how you're interpreting the text on The Dark Magicians.

You're reading it as [Spell/Trap Card] or [effect].

It's supposed to be read as [Spell/Trap] [Card or effect]. (As in "Spell/Trap Card" or "Spell/Trap effect".)

The rule of thumb is that, if the text responds to an card/effect activation, and it specifies any of the card types (monster/Spell/Trap), then it must specify all the card types that it can respond to.

So since The Dark Magicians mentions "Spell/Trap" but does NOT specify "monsters", then it can never be used against monsters.

Compare to something like... Divine Judgment, which says "Spell/Trap Card or monster effect".
Divine Judgment works on:
- Spell/Trap Card activations
- monster effect activations

The Dark Magicians works on:
- Spell/Trap Card activations
- Spell/Trap effect activations

They just decided not to write out "Spell/Trap Card or Spell/Trap effect", but they perhaps could've made it clear by saying "Spell/Trap card/effect" (which if you say "card/effect" out loud, many would say it as "card or effect", so "Spell/Trap Card/effect" would just be said aloud as "Spell/Trap Card or effect"... which is what it currently says).

[FlintX]

Originally posted by dabestgamer:

Neither.

The thing that's problematic is how you're interpreting it here.

You're reading it as [Spell/Trap Card] or [effect].

It's supposed to be read as [Spell/Trap] [Card or effect]. (As in "Spell/Trap Card" or "Spell/Trap effect".)

The rule of thumb is that, if the text responds to an card/effect activation, and it specifies, then it must specify all the card types (monster/Spell/Trap) that it can respond to.

So since The Dark Magicians mentions "Spell/Trap" but does NOT specify "monsters", then it can never be used against monsters.

Compare to something like... Divine Judgment, which says "Spell/Trap Card or monster effect".
Divine Judgment works on:
- Spell/Trap Card activations
- monster effect activations

The Dark Magicians works on:
- Spell/Trap Card activations
- Spell/Trap effect activations

They just decided not to write out "Spell/Trap Card or Spell/Trap effect", but they perhaps could've made it clear by saying "Spell/Trap card/effect".

I dunno man, the text just looks very silly then. If the effect in question can only trigger in response to Spell/Trap activations or to its effects, then there is no need to put this "Effect" wording. In order for a Spell/Trap card effect to resolve the card must first be activacted in the first place.
The text as it is just silly and redundant. And can make people confuse on top of that.

[dabestgamer]

Originally posted by FlintX:

then there is no need to put this "Effect" wording

Incorrect.

It's absolutely possible to activate a Spell/Trap effect without it being a Spell/Trap Card activation.

For example, Dragon Ravine. If Dragon Ravine is already face-up on the field, and I activate its effect, you cannot respond with a card that only says "When a Spell Card is activated", because there's no card activation there. Just an effect activation.

But you could respond to that activation if you had a card that says "When a Spell effect is activated".

So yes, the "effect" distinction on The Dark Magicians actually makes a meaningful difference. Going back to my example of Dragon Ravine, The Dark Magicians having the "or effect" text is what would allow it to respond to the effect activation of an already face-up Dragon Ravine. If it didn't have that, it would not be able to.

[FlintX]

Yeah yeah anyways, all that confusion could be avoided if they simpled added a "its" before the effect word. But apparently Konami like to complicate things for some reason.

[dabestgamer]

Originally posted by FlintX:

Yeah yeah anyways, all that confusion could be avoided if they simpled added a "its" before the effect word. But apparently Konami like to complicate things for some reason.

Or just saying "Spell/Trap Card/effect"... which, as I said, would easily be read aloud as "Spell/Trap Card or effect".

[FlintX]

Ok, so I coming back to this topic to confirm that this piece of text surrounding The Dark Magicians effect for drawing a card is indeed flawed or at least somewhat obscured in a misleading way that leads to exceptions in the rulling.

I already have been told that it can only trigger in response to spell/trap cards or their effects. Never to monsters effects. And It has proven to be the case indeed.
However, while I was watching one of my recorded duels there was an instance where my Sacred Phoenix of Nephythys that was previously destroyed came back and triggered its effect for destroying spell and trap cards on the field, and my opponent actually did chained The Dark Magicians effect to it.

This can't be the only exception that exists right? Due to how the game is coded it still a monster effect. Unless Sacred Phoenix of Nephythys effect is treated as a spell card activation or something and that is not written on the card. Also, the trigger condition text is the exact same that is present in Magician of Chaos, so I assuming that we are probably able to chain his effect to Nephythys as well. If so, there is big contradiction here. Why does this effect triggers in response to this particular monster effects but does not trigger for all the other monsters in the game? That's unclear. Specialists?

[EXO]

Originally posted by FlintX:

Ok, so I coming back to this topic to confirm that this piece of text surrounding The Dark Magicians effect for drawing a card is indeed flawed or at least somewhat obscured in a misleading way that leads to exceptions in the rulling.

I already have been told that it can only trigger in response to spell/trap cards or their effects. Never to monsters effects. And It has proven to be the case indeed.
However, while I was watching one of my recorded duels there was an instance where my Sacred Phoenix of Nephythys that was previously destroyed came back and triggered its effect for destroying spell and trap cards on the field, and my opponent actually did chained The Dark Magicians effect to it.

This can't be the only exception that exists right? Due to how the game is coded it still a monster effect. Unless Sacred Phoenix of Nephythys effect is treated as a spell card activation or something and that is not written on the card. Also, the trigger condition text is the exact same that is present in Magician of Chaos, so I assuming that we are probably able to chain his effect to Nephythys as well. If so, there is big contradiction here. Why does this effect triggers in response to this particular monster effects but does not trigger for all the other monsters in the game? That's unclear. Specialists?

Could you make the replay public and share your game ID so people can check it out?

[FlintX]

Originally posted by EXO:

Could you make the replay public and share your game ID so people can check it out?

Yes I can. But I have to upload it to Youtube first though, since I do not have the replay saved in-game anymore. I was saving it for making a joke video about "how to lose a duel by not reading a card." So I should upload it anyway.

[FlintX]

Here you go: https://youtu.be/CjAN3_i0jQI

[EXO]

Originally posted by FlintX:

Here you go: https://youtu.be/CjAN3_i0jQI

Well, it looks like Eternal Soul is what allowed The Dark Magicians to trigger it's effect

[FlintX]

Hmmmmm... But shouldn't haven't it been a "missed the activation time" thing instead?

[EXO]

Originally posted by FlintX:

Hmmmmm... But shouldn't haven't it been a "missed the activation time" thing instead?

No, The Dark Magicians is a "IF" effect. The reason why it looks like it was chained in response to Sacred Phoenix is because The Dark Magicians effect activate in a new chain after the activation of a spell/Trap effect. The previous chain had the effect of Eternal Soul.