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C.C. 折オリ枝の夫 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 8: 05am

"I miss old Yu-Gi-Oh with it's variety in deck building...

...that didn't exist"

So, I was scrolling through the forum, and as per always, there's the constant complaint that "modern Yu-Gi-Oh suck because you have to run certain staple cards" and all that, and well, some of you guys don't know me, so it's time for me to show you what boredom does to a god of death.

This is an excerpt from a Konami blog post from 2012.

https://yugiohblog.konami.com/articles/?p=3866

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Konami:
Why Have a List?

First, we’re often asked “Why have the F&L List at all?”

To answer that, let’s go back in time to 2003. A time before there were any forbidden cards.

Back in those days, when you built a deck, you would start by including Raigeki, Dark Hole, Monster Reborn, Harpie’s Feather Duster, Heavy Storm, Change of Heart, Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Sinister Serpent, Delinquent Duo, Confiscation, The Forceful Sentry, Painful Choice, Imperial Order, Tribe-Infecting Virus, Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest, Mirror Force, Ring of Destruction, and probably Mirage of Nightmare and 3 copies of Mystical Space Typhoon.

That’s 23 cards already… over half your deck… and you haven’t even added any of your main monsters… and you haven’t even started on your theme or strategy. But you’re already running out of room!

You could choose not to use these cards, of course. But when all of your opponents ARE using them, you need to put them in your deck too, or else you get clobbered. You have hundreds or even thousands of cards in your collection… but you feel like you’re forced to use just the same 20 cards, plus whatever monster theme you add in.

And since all your opponents are going through the exact same situation, they’re all playing with the same cards you are. So you keep seeing the same cards every time you Duel. And you keep using the same cards every time you Duel.

Same decks – same cards – every Duel. Sound boring? You’re not the only one who thinks so.

That was their reasoning for having a forbidden list, along making sure people don't feel pressured to play the exact same deck, as they were forced to back in the day. It ain't us saying, it's your lords and masters that gave you this game.

And I can already hear the screams "but I'm feeling forced to run hand traps, so by that logic they should be banned", and I agree, to an extent. Maxx "C" needs to go, that card's bonkers, needs to be banned yesterday.

Ash and the others however, aren't as forced, sure, our joyous "NO!!!" to your searches does feel forced, but that's mainly because of the draw a million if you discard the bug. In the TCG, there's quite a good bunch of decks that don't run Ash at all, run her at 1 or just 2 copies along others of her sisters or other board breakers and such.

Ignoring Maxx "C", there's 34 named cards in my guide, all tailored for when you're going 2nd. If we add the special mentioned going 1st traps and floodgates, it's 46 different named cards you can choose from.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2743479211

Just by going only by the actual hand traps and board breakers, 34 different cards to choose from, that's why hand traps won't get banned anytime soon unless they happen to a bit too good at what they do *looking at you Red Reboot and Pankratops*

And those cards named in my guide aren't even ALL the cards you can choose to run.

So while yea, you kinda have to run something, hand traps or board breakers, it's nowhere near the OG situation, as you only need to run 2-3 card out of those 34 at 3 copies, or you can run 4-5 at 2 copies, or as someone commented on the guide, lots of them at 1 copy each.

It's not different from any other format to ever exist, except that old one before archetypes and better lists existed, where even Konami said that everyone was forced to run the exact same cards.

You have to run certain cards to deal with your opponent, but what those cards are, it's your choice baby.

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กำลังแสดง 31-45 จาก 81 ความเห็น

Papa Shekels มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 10: 43am

Tbh, these posts are starting to become as cringe as the whining posts. If you see boomers complaining about the good old days of set/pass, clown on them and move on. If you see an obvious bait post from somebody with a private profile and 4chan-tier name referencing the same, report and move on. Walls of text telling people why they're wrong are only marginally more effective than childish whining in convincing anybody of anything, regardless of how true it is. And they clog up the forums just as much as the guy complaining about how synchros are too complicated

#31

C.C. 折オリ枝の夫 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 10: 47am

I know, I just found it fun that Konami stated that there was no diversity in a format that these guys praise for its diversity.

#32

C.C. 折オリ枝の夫 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 11: 55am

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย ronelm2000:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:
dozens okay start naming. Cuz your viable isnt my viable. Obviously from a pure meta view.
Your meta decks:
Eldlich
Drytron
Virtual World
Tri-Brigade Lyrilusc
Zoodiac Tri-Brigade

All other rouge decks that have viable anti-meta strategies:
Abyss Actor
Adamancipator
Altergeist
Ancient Warriors
Artifact Traptrix
Atlantean
Barrier Statue
Blackwing
Blue-Eyes Chaos MAX Dragon
Burning Abyss
Chaos Thunder Dragon
Code Talker
Cubic
Cyber Dragon
Danger Dark World
Dark Magician
Da Eiza
Dinosaur
Dogmatika Invoked
Dogmatika Invoked Shaddoll
Dragonmaid
Dragon Link
Dragunity
D/D
Endymion
Evil Eye
Evil★Twin
Fluffal
F.A.
Galaxy-Eyes
Generaider
Grass Infernoid
Gravekeeper
Junk Doppel
HERO
Kaiju Luna
Lightsworn
Lunalight
Machina
Madolche
Magical Musket
Magician
Mathmech
Megalith
Metalfoes
Meta Beat
Monarch
Myutant
Numeron
Orcust
Phantom Knights
Plunder Patroll
Prank-Kids
Raidraptor
Resonator
Salamangreat
Scrap
Shark
Shiranui
Six Samurai
Sky Striker
Sky Striker Exodia
Sky Striker Mekk-Knight
SPYRAL
Subterror
Tenyi
Train
Tri-Brigade Gladiator Beast
True Draco
Unchained
Utopia
Weather
Zefra
Zoodiac
@Ignister

There are also tons other over masterduelmeta which I am too lazy to manually type in.

inb4 "that's not my standard of viable"

Many of those, at bare minimum in Master Duel are actually bonkers meta decks if people learn to play them.

Dinosaurs have Misc at 3, Spyral has only Quick-Fix as restricted card, Prank Kids and Phantom Knighs are meta a f right now, among the best decks, Adamancipators have triple Block Dragon, they're at full power and they were a heavy meta deck on release in the TCG, so yea, there's quite a lot that are actually meta, not just rogue.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย C.C. アヌビス:
Kids, if you don't learn proper logic at school, you end up like Ink here.

what does that even mean ? you mean probably everybody need to think like you and call that then logic. Pretty easy to be ignorant dont you think ? But add more condescending tone to it just makes me chuckle and laugh.

No, I'm asking people to actually think, since you clearly have no idea how card ratios work.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย C.C. アヌビス:
Let's blow this ♥♥♥♥ out of the water:

"To prevent a situation where you feel “locked in” – where you HAVE to play with certain cards, or a certain Deck."

So, have you watched the video I sent? Here's the link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aytrsowf1kk

Except the Maxx "C", there's not 1 card that's mandatory, meaning that only Maxx "C" feels forced, and guess what? I agree that one needs to be banned.

yeah ask anybody to make a deck guess wich cards are unanimously in the deck outside the anti decks. 9 handtraps +3 Trap handtraps are named if you search for the professional decks leaving out the counterplay for these like CoG. I mean look at all the top decks the answer is self evident.

#33

C.C. 折オリ枝の夫 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 12: 04pm

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย C.C. アヌビス:
Otherwise, please tell me which of the other 34 cards you feel are forced to run? Oh, you feel forced to run staples? I'm sorry, did there ever exist a format where you didn't have to run staples? No? Ok, then you've got no argument.
Lol these arent staples these are MUST haves most decks dont even stop at 9 Handtraps for consistency sake. Staples are just good cards that you can splash. On top most of these Handtraps hinder other archetypes as hard as the Metadecks. Making them opressive too.

Moving on, round 2.

Straight from the wiki:

A staple is a card that is considered so splashable that it is included in almost any Deck the owner chooses to construct.

Examples
A list of cards considered to be staples by many players, including:
- Hand traps that respond to cards and effects activating and disrupt them, as they are harder to stop than Trap Cards on the field e.g. "D.D. Crow", the Yo-kai Girl monsters, "Effect Veiler" and "Droll & Lock Bird". Hand traps that respond to battle are generally not staples.

https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Staple

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย C.C. アヌビス:
"To restrict “solitaire” play Decks. These are usually first-turn-combo Decks where one Duelist plays by themselves for 15 minutes, shuffling and summoning cards while their opponent twiddles his thumbs."

Use hand traps or board breakers. Again, staple cards existed for as long as the game existed, and you have over 34 unique cards to choose from, so...that one's already done, "solitaire" decks can only play by themselves if you let them.

Dude you are arguing against the spirit of the banlist with a "suck it up chump it was always like that" i mean come on and its far less then 34. Thats a joke right ? Alone for consistency you need more than 6 Handtraps and there is still the point of not going second totally invalidationg the advent of handtraps.

The spirit of the banlist is to prevent decks that you can't stop from playing by themselves. Anything that got to that point over the years was hit.

Oh, and regarding consistency, here's some math for you:

- at 6 careds, ~60% chance to start with at least 1 in your hand
- at 9 cards, 75% chance to start with at least 1 in your hand
- at 12 cards, 85% chance to start with at least 1 in your hand

So

- at 6 cards, 40% chance for you to not start with 1 in your hand, but since you're going first half the time (assuming no specialized going 2nd deck), it's 20% chance to start without 1 in your hand when your opponent goes 1st
- at 9 cards, 25% chance for you to not start with 1 in your hand, but since you're going first half the time (assuming no specialized going 2nd deck), it's 12.5% chance to start without 1 in your hand when your opponent goes first
- at 12 cards, 15% chance for you to not start with 1 in your hand, but since you're going first half the time (assuming no specialized going 2nd deck), it's 7.5% chance to start without 1 in your hand when your opponent goes first

Hence why 6 to 9 is your preferred ratio, as the increase further than that is too minimal.

#34

C.C. 折オリ枝の夫 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 2: 32pm

"This site isn't good, use my site and you'll see that they don't run between 6-9, they run around 9+ hand traps and 3 trap hand traps"

*checks tournament winning decks*

None go past 10. Found this cool top 4 Adventurer Phantom Knight deck that only runs 3 Ash and 3 Droplets....wait, wait a minute, that's 6.

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/yugioh/deck/Adventurer-Phantom-Knights/454553

Maybe that's just a fluke, let's check this one that won

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/yugioh/deck/Adventurer-Phantom-Knights/454551

Only has 3 Droplets, no other hand traps in the main deck

By your logic, of trying to run 'as close as possible to 100%" they are risking a lot not running anywhere near that in game 1.

So yea, tournament winning decks run as low as 3 cards in the deck and max 10. Occasionally there's some control deck that goes past 10, but pretty much almost everything doesn't go past 10, a lot run only 8, and as shown above, there's players who don't mind only having 3 Droplets in the main deck for game 1.

If the risk was "YOU MUST HAVE IT 100% OF THE TIME OR AS CLOSE TO 100% AS POSSIBLE OR YOU LOSE" as you try to make it seem to be, they wouldn't be risking game 1 like that.

Or you gonna say that this site ain't good either?

#35

C.C. 折オリ枝の夫 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 3: 30pm

"there is only game 1 in Master Duel dont try to go off topic, but why do you use decks from a site that gathers Master Duel decks that are made for a Bo1 format instead of using this site that gathers OCG decks that have no relation to the game, as the game doesn't use an OCG list".

The devs specified that the game uses it's own ban list, it's not OCG nor TCG, so if you don't care for TCG decks, then you shouldn't care for OCG either.

Aren't you trying a bit too hard to spin in circles?

You say TCG doesn't matter because the game doesn't use the TCG list, ok, then whatever ratios you see on Road of the Kings don't matter either, as the game doesn't use OCG, making Master Duel Meta one of the most accurate depiction of the meta in Master Duel and people still don't use as many hand traps as you want to claim they should.

You want keep talking about how "you don't think I have tournament experience", yet you seem to be in the same boat you claim I am. Even with no side decks, in a community tournament, there's decks with no hand traps at all, I even linked an Endymion deck list that made top 4.

I checked the tournament decks there, all the 1st and 2nd places I could find, same ratios as usual for the respective decks.

There's this cool 2nd place Bird Up deck with 6 hand traps and 1 Droplet, totalling 7, made 2nd place.

https://www.masterduelmeta.com/top-decks/community-tournaments/moodtrapper-cup/1/lyrilusc-tri-brigade/sparkx

So I don't know what to say, again, people who seem to be winning and doing well, are winning and doing well with stuff you say isn't "enough".

That guy got 2nd with those 7 cards, this guy got 2nd in a different tournament, Bird Up deck, using 10, 8 hand traps and 2 Lightning Storm, so clearly the decks had room.

https://www.masterduelmeta.com/top-decks/community-tournaments/nageki-weekly/1/lyrilusc-tri-brigade/%E3%82%B4%E3%82%A6%E3%83%A8%E3%82%AF

They seem to not be running the 100% as you claim they should, maybe they know something you don't.

#36

ronelm2000 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 5: 12pm

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย C.C. アヌビス:
Your meta decks:
Eldlich
Drytron
Virtual World
Tri-Brigade Lyrilusc
Zoodiac Tri-Brigade

There are also tons other over masterduelmeta which I am too lazy to manually type in.

inb4 "that's not my standard of viable"

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:
dozens okay start naming. Cuz your viable isnt my viable. Obviously from a pure meta view.

yeah literally called it before you answered nice try to cloak and dagger. I obviously didnt say that there are no decks to play. I stated VIABLE wich means they dont get most of the time there face kicked-in from the meta. Atleast try to argument instead of bringing fake arguments.
By your analogy is my 1:20 Exodia deck viable caugh caugh.

Okay, define "most of the time"
Define "meta"
Define "viable"

None of your definitions are any way, shape, or form concrete, which means you're free to move the goalposts with your scottman definitions.

#37

Paroe

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 5: 29pm

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย ronelm2000:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ink:

yeah literally called it before you answered nice try to cloak and dagger. I obviously didnt say that there are no decks to play. I stated VIABLE wich means they dont get most of the time there face kicked-in from the meta. Atleast try to argument instead of bringing fake arguments.
By your analogy is my 1:20 Exodia deck viable caugh caugh.
Okay, define "most of the time"
Define "meta"
Define "viable"

None of your definitions are any way, shape, or form concrete, which means you're free to move the goalposts with your scottman definitions.

Viable=rogue = can compete with some meta or is a lower power deck that can easily be broken/out tempoed but competes with all meta on a good hand.
Viable decks are usually either capable regardless of the meta or are specific meta threats.

Meta = one of the top 5 most popular decks during any given ranked season, or a deck which tops competition regularly.

Magikey when it comes out for example would be a "viable" deck because the gimmick of that deck is monster negation via elements in the graveyard and big chungo ritual monster/synchro spam.
Super quantals are also viable because great magnus turbo will always be an effective strategy.

Fur hire and ursarctic isnt "viable" because its a lot less consistent and has far fewer ways to recover - if you disrupt a fur hire play their power will be exclusively in their extra deck plays depending on when and how you disrupted them. Ursarctic is, while fun, easily able to be gotten over unless your opponent doesnt read.

แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย Paroe; 7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 5: 30pm

#38

Forest

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 5: 55pm

Dude we get it. You're bad and a slave to the meta and will bash any one who points out how bad the modern game is. Would offer a clown award but don't wanna waste my points on it.

แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย Forest; 7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 5: 55pm

#39

DS: Artorias of the Abyss (PS3) มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 6: 27pm

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย gredora:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Forest:
Dude we get it. You're bad and a slave to the meta and will bash any one who points out how bad the modern game is. Would offer a clown award but don't wanna waste my points on it.
Buddy buddy, we get it.

Your ego and pride is being attacked because you think you're special when you're playing low tier decks.

stfu, where's my medal for playing pure worms without handtraps

#40

Papa Shekels มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 6: 34pm

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย gredora:
If I had the points, I wasted it all giving away all these clown awards.

Bruh don't, trolls who have literally never played yugioh in their lives are coming here to post stupid ♥♥♥♥ and farm free steam points. You're giving them exactly what they want

#41

xTool P2 55W CO2 Laser Cutter มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 6: 56pm

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย C.C. アヌビス:
...that didn't exist"

So, I was scrolling through the forum, and as per always, there's the constant complaint that "modern Yu-Gi-Oh suck because you have to run certain staple cards" and all that, and well, some of you guys don't know me, so it's time for me to show you what boredom does to a god of death.

This is an excerpt from a Konami blog post from 2012.

https://yugiohblog.konami.com/articles/?p=3866

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Konami:
Why Have a List?

First, we’re often asked “Why have the F&L List at all?”

To answer that, let’s go back in time to 2003. A time before there were any forbidden cards.

Back in those days, when you built a deck, you would start by including Raigeki, Dark Hole, Monster Reborn, Harpie’s Feather Duster, Heavy Storm, Change of Heart, Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Sinister Serpent, Delinquent Duo, Confiscation, The Forceful Sentry, Painful Choice, Imperial Order, Tribe-Infecting Virus, Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest, Mirror Force, Ring of Destruction, and probably Mirage of Nightmare and 3 copies of Mystical Space Typhoon.

That’s 23 cards already… over half your deck… and you haven’t even added any of your main monsters… and you haven’t even started on your theme or strategy. But you’re already running out of room!

You could choose not to use these cards, of course. But when all of your opponents ARE using them, you need to put them in your deck too, or else you get clobbered. You have hundreds or even thousands of cards in your collection… but you feel like you’re forced to use just the same 20 cards, plus whatever monster theme you add in.

And since all your opponents are going through the exact same situation, they’re all playing with the same cards you are. So you keep seeing the same cards every time you Duel. And you keep using the same cards every time you Duel.

Same decks – same cards – every Duel. Sound boring? You’re not the only one who thinks so.

That was their reasoning for having a forbidden list, along making sure people don't feel pressured to play the exact same deck, as they were forced to back in the day. It ain't us saying, it's your lords and masters that gave you this game.

And I can already hear the screams "but I'm feeling forced to run hand traps, so by that logic they should be banned", and I agree, to an extent. Maxx "C" needs to go, that card's bonkers, needs to be banned yesterday.

Ash and the others however, aren't as forced, sure, our joyous "NO!!!" to your searches does feel forced, but that's mainly because of the draw a million if you discard the bug. In the TCG, there's quite a good bunch of decks that don't run Ash at all, run her at 1 or just 2 copies along others of her sisters or other board breakers and such.

Ignoring Maxx "C", there's 34 named cards in my guide, all tailored for when you're going 2nd. If we add the special mentioned going 1st traps and floodgates, it's 46 different named cards you can choose from.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2743479211

Just by going only by the actual hand traps and board breakers, 34 different cards to choose from, that's why hand traps won't get banned anytime soon unless they happen to a bit too good at what they do *looking at you Red Reboot and Pankratops*

And those cards named in my guide aren't even ALL the cards you can choose to run.

So while yea, you kinda have to run something, hand traps or board breakers, it's nowhere near the OG situation, as you only need to run 2-3 card out of those 34 at 3 copies, or you can run 4-5 at 2 copies, or as someone commented on the guide, lots of them at 1 copy each.

It's not different from any other format to ever exist, except that old one before archetypes and better lists existed, where even Konami said that everyone was forced to run the exact same cards.

You have to run certain cards to deal with your opponent, but what those cards are, it's your choice baby.

variety, maybe not, but you didn't have to stock up on multiple 3 of handtraps to avoid hard losing turn 3. A few basic removal cards were enough because cards weren't immune and negates were insanely rare

#42

ronelm2000 มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 7: 55pm

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ascent:
variety, maybe not, but you didn't have to stock up on multiple 3 of handtraps to avoid hard losing turn 3. A few basic removal cards were enough because cards weren't immune and negates were insanely rare

And what happens when you don't have the classic removal cards?

#43

Cinnamoon_dragon มี Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 8: 10pm

When you and your opponent have all the best cards, the game turns to rock - paper - scissors (ash blossom - Maxx С - Called by the grave - Nibiru)

#44

CSS

7 ก.พ. 2022 @ 8: 42pm

I've heard augments for not banning MAXX C and I agree with them, they stem from 2 questions, going first has been made the far Superior option, it shouldnt be, so how do you correct it? and, how do you move the game away from combo decks in the future? or to put it another way how do non combo decks compete?

(as for the whole (the game use to have more variation) thing, these people are probably not talking about meta, and refer to playing the game for fun with there friends, well masters is sorta forcing everyone to use a "competent" deck for rank (altho i'm doing fine with aroma rikka)

#45

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กำลังแสดง 31-45 จาก 81 ความเห็น

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Yu-Gi-Oh! Master Duel > กระดานสนทนาทั่วไป > รายละเอียดกระทู้

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