[STORY SPOILERS] Something about Ryuki...

[Tenacious J]

Looking over the story once more, a few things that bother me about Ryuki that Date was right to suspect him over.

https://imgur.com/a/mR5kjmw

One is when Chikara's left half is discovered first-thing in Mizuki Chapter 2 "Traveler". Mizuki and Ryuki exchange like this:

Ryuki "..."
Mizuki "What's wrong?"
Ryuki "Well... Thinking about what happened six years ago... How could this happen...?"
Mizuki "..."
Ryuki "Anyway, that half of a body is definitely Chikara's. I saw Chikara's right half at Sekiba High. This is the other half.

Given the True Flowchart, there's no doubting Ryuki discovered both halves of Chikara. The problem is his pondering over six years ago. What called for this? At this point with True Flowchart revealed, we know this Mizuki is Bibi and that Chikara's murder takes place in the past. So what is it six years ago that Ryuki could be mulling over now? Had Ryuki experienced the case events as plotted in the Original Flowchart, it would make sense for Ryuki to think about Chikara's right half from "six years ago". In fact, this is what made sense to us, the player when this moment came up in the story. Otherwise, Ryuki's thought makes no sense and could be thought of as a mere mental lapse. That is until you think about how Ryuki knew about Tearer's two names.

https://imgur.com/a/MEe9cHi

Shoma tells you about "Dahlia" in the end of the Komeji and Shoma route (Ryuki Chapter 4 R2 "Past Its Ken"). He also tells you how he appeared in the wearhouse, including his wearing a metal mask; a point which I'll expand on shortly . But this is all part of the story splits from the main story route. This simply does not happen in the canon route and Ryuki therefore could not know. Shoma never gets kidnapped by Tearer nor personally told the name at the Wearhouse District. Only "Boat" is revealed after the standoff at the Cathederal.

It is impossible to proceed into Mizuki's side of the story without knowing both of Tearer's names. Of course, us, the player knows. And so when we input them during Ryuki's reverse-psync, the name suddenly hits him and he spirals downward. If he indeed was supposed to know, then that makes Ryuki an extraordinary being, more than his somnium would have us believe. Inputting the correct nil number upon request is further proof of this as it is something you do not learn until after you thwart the Nirvana Initiative.

https://imgur.com/a/s7DoWKP

There's one more thing still. Date confronted Ryuki during the Cathederal's collapse over how he could have known Tearer wore an Iron Mask. We've had three opportunities:

1. As already mentioned, Shoma explained this to us while telling about Tearer's name.
   
2. Through the Studio Dvita VR investigation of Komeji's murder. We discover Tearer's presence in the crime scene amongst the mannequins backstage though only through x-ray analysis.
   
3. Through Mame's first somnium while working to unlock her final mental lock.

But these opportunities are all either outside the main timeline or happen in the present. In other words, these are impossible opportunies under normal circumstances.
Correction: To his credit, Ryuki made contact with Tearer in the Cathederal by the time Mizuki Chapter 4 M1 "In Truth" happened and was forced to do his bidding. So Ryuki had a real opportunity to know that Tearer wore an iron mask and answered Date accordingly while directing him to the Sejima residence.

https://imgur.com/a/sI4k6PY

It's also worth pointing out that Ryuki canonically does not contract TC-PERGE until the tail-end of Ryuki Chapter 2 "Go", a present-day event. Yet he is overcome with a gibberish spell during his somnium's reverse-psync after inputting Tearer's two names. Why is this? He was unconsciously in control of the psync when it happened. And if the hallucinations are a product of his memory, at what point six years prior did it happen?
It could simply be that Ryuki has a history of seizures and he was overcome with one right then. Further proof of this happens just after the somnium interrogating Ryuki, when his brain starts firing neurons abnormally and can no longer cooperate. Further, at the end when Ryuki brings up that he contracted TC-PERGE (at Mizuki Chapter 5 M1 "Births", present), he said that his symptoms worsened rather than began. The symptoms began with his mental trauma of what happened to his brother.

So with loose ends like these, Tokiko's words of the Simulation Theory ring ever truer. And these outcomes are "seams" that would not be possible without being nudged by the player, or "frayer".

I'm stumped here and can't think of a solid explanation to these points. What do you guys think?

[Llyes]

Did you not do the nil route? The world is a simulation and the entire game was set up to glitch Ryuki so that the flowchart would get twisted into its incorrect form. The red route is Ryuki's actual perspective on events before he sobers up at the very end. How this is accomplished isn't 100% confirmed, but it likely had to do with the videos using Ryuki's trauma as a backdoor to rewrite his code by glitching him out. The somnium at the beginning could then be used to write code from Ryuki and Tama to Aiba by completely breaking Ryuki with the mass of contradictions and Trauma associated with knowing the two halves of Dahlia Boat even though they're from two different iterations of the simulation. From there the player is presented with the perspective of both Mizukis being the same person due to the rewrite of Aibas code, this is further supported by the fact that Aiba's memory of Bibi in the past isn't actually lost and is somehow recovered before the ending.

[Tenacious J]

I know about the Diverge route and its possibilities. So let me rephrase the question. Is there a comprehensible, real, sensible, "boring" explanation that would debunk the easy "Simulation Theory" answer?

The red route is Ryuki's actual perspective on events before he sobers up at the very end.

That was my original thought. But the more we hear about Ryuki throughout the story, the harder it was to believe.

• Like the incident when Ryuki shot the guy in the Adorabbit costume in panic. It was some time in Chapter 2 in the past. And first-thing next chapter, Ryuki gets busted for it by Boss under threat of demotion.
  
• There's also Kizuna's "kidnapping" that was used to lure Date to the Abandoned Factory in Chapter 4 (Past) with the help of Ryuki. Immediately prior to this, Ryuki was lured to the Cathederal and subdued by Tearer, holding Tama hostage and forced to do his bidding. This was witnessed through Wink Psyncing him. Anyway, Tearer must have been the "really important source" Ryuki mentioned in Ryuki Chapter 4 "Visions" in Yoyagi Park.

He definitely has a sensible past in the True Flowchart despite not being told to us in the story.

While we're at it, I have nothing concrete for the night Shoma boarded the Ferris Wheel (present day) other than the fact that Ryuki contracted TC-PERGE by then. I think originally he was there to follow up on "important information", "Something... Terrible...", "Here on the rooftop..." just like Mizuki but better informed. But he fell under the influence of TC-PERGE trying creating a bug by staring at the ferris wheel. In order for Ryuki's consciousness to accept the act, he mentally regressed to this night in the past. Even after Bibi knocked him out as payback, his mind was still on the night six years past when he came to. It's purely speculation but this would explain why he freaked out when Shoma "disappeared". Tama knew better but failed to get through to him.

I'm putting too much emphasis on TC-PERGE. Yes, the videos are definitely something to talk about. "Bats490" happens a few months prior to Ryuki Chapter 1 in the past. It had seemingly no effect on Ryuki when watched, probably because he was better off mentally. But the power of subliminal messaging could definitely make a sleeper agent in Ryuki for all we know. Chapter 0 in Studio Dvaita, The QR video "Fray to Free" definitely did affect Ryuki in the past, and we know that was just the prototype. It was replayed on a monitor in Studio Dvaita while tracking down Komeji, knocking him out. "Nirvana Trial" happens in Ryuki Chapter 2 in the present, and the effect on Ryuki was greater this time. By this time in the canon, he bears the weight of putting his friends in harm's way in the Cathedral, worsening his mental welfare and making him receptive to extreme ideas. After the video is when Tokiko's half is discovered in the Naix office, and after that is when TC-PERGE is contracted. "Nirvana X" is actually an optional video to watch in Chapter 4 R1 "Well-Known" (Present) at Marble, which would probably explain why it had no obvious effect on Ryuki. But again, he could have been affected subconsciously or was a special exception. So granted, we know Ryuki was receptive to Tearer's videos but I think this is all we have for concrete facts here.

From there the player is presented with the perspective of both Mizukis being the same person due to the rewrite of Aibas code, this is further supported by the fact that Aiba's memory of Bibi in the past isn't actually lost and is somehow recovered before the ending.

Well both Mizukis may as well have been the same at age 18, they're practically identical twins and maybe went to the same high school. That's why the True Flowchart reveal was so effective. Even if they had distinct appearances in their own subtle way, I'd probably still be fooled. Also, both Bibi and Mizuki should know what they look like through their own perspectives. Despite their different upbringing, they both think and operate in the same wavelength. If the pipe as weapon of choice wasn't enough, they have the same tastes. Like their choice in moped, color, attire, hairstyle, attitude, etc.

And with the Aiba thing, you have to recall in AI 1 that data and personalities are backed up to the Wadjet System. Of course, the comms server outage in HQ made that impossible. So until it's up again, info is stored in local memory in both AI-Balls and Psyncers' eye socket implant devices. To get Aiba's past memories restored, data preserved in Bibi's eye socket (and maybe Marco too) must've been uploaded to the Wadjet System in the end once the servers were back up. It wasn't stated explicitly but I'd bet on that possibility.

[Llyes]

I know that you don't want to accept that Tokiko won and escaped the simulation, but as you put here there's no way to explain all of Ryuki's behavior, like when he believes all the bodies appear six years apart, nor would that explain why the player's perspective would be altered to Ryuki's which would be 100% pointless if the nil ending isn't both inevitable and what the entire game was working toward.

There is little chance that Bibi went to Mizuki's school by the way as she was busy playing Robin hood, and then working for ABIS, so there's little chance she actually wore the same thing as Mizuki in the past. How exactly would Aiba's memories have been uploaded before the explosion if said explosion took place underground far out of reach of any server and the the servers were explicitly said to be down before you go to the catherdral.

[Tenacious J]

I only want to understand every bit of the story. It's why I brought it up here, to see if anyone here can help me make sense of it all. It's just my idea of fun since the meaning of achieving moksha in this story needs no explanation after it happens.

There is little chance that Bibi went to Mizuki's school by the way as she was busy playing Robin hood, and then working for ABIS, so there's little chance she actually wore the same thing as Mizuki in the past.

Hmm... The Sekiba High uniform both Mizukis wear tells me otherwise. And if their wardrobes are like Mizuki's in the prequel, this would be all they wear, provided they're on the same wavelength.

Right, Bibi worked in a thieves guild as "Quartz" with Lien. But it could be that a bored Bibi was a student by day and thief by night if not being trained by Boss. Still, that happens before the events of the HB case. By the time the case starts, Lien is already fired from Horadori Institute as janitor and made jobless. Bibi is assigned to investigate the HB case independently in top secret, occupying all of Bibi's time and energy.

How exactly would Aiba's memories have been uploaded before the explosion if said explosion took place underground far out of reach of any server and the the servers were explicitly said to be down before you go to the catherdral.

They were uploaded after the case was closed. Pewter was only able to restore Aiba's memory with Bibi. My theory is that Bibi's eye socket held Aiba's memory data and was restored from that. The opportunity never arose sooner because Bibi went into hiding as the Masked Woman after witnessing Tearer's face in the Abandoned Warehouse and being threatened to kill "her" (Mizuki) if she tells anyone.

[Llyes]

Why would Bibi go from the uniform to going around in the same tattered clothes for years without shoes. If she had gone to school then she would've been there at the same time as half the cast and she would have run into Kizuna which is the last thing that she wanted to do as she avoids her the entire game. It is only our perception that the two Mizukis are wearing the same thing.

The recovery from the eyesocket carries zero weight as that would've been the solution last game, instead it was that Aiba was distributed across the web at random by the (still fairly sinister) Wadjet system. There's no indication that there's any more hardware in the psyncer's heads than the artificial nerve. Part of the memory could be from the psyncher themselves, but it wouldn't be enough as it would only account for part of Aiba as there is only room for one consciousness in a human head. I don't buy your second point at all.

It's far more likely that Aiba's memory was properly backed up the entire time and Boss was involved in the case in some capacity. Boss sent the SAT after Mizuki and Date when she learned they found a new half-body, and would have had to be involved in removing the box containing the virus from the cathedral when she learned Mizuki would be heading that way. Not to mention Boss has always been the most suspicious character of all time and if there isn't a Somnium 3 to learn what is wrong with her I will be sorely dissapointed.

[Tenacious J]

Why not? Lots of characters stick to the same outfit throughout the entire series, even across time periods. It's the "anime logic" of this game. (or tight dev budget) And as someone pointed out in another thread, if Bibi is gifted enough to be able to stop a drill with her body, she sure can live life barefooted. I don't understand why she'd want to avoid Amame. If I'm right, she had all of High School to meet and make an acquaintance out of Amame and Iris. If she hasn't towards graduation already, then she won't. Plus, they could've been in different classes for all we know. The only chance we got to see characters at school was on a holiday.

https://imgur.com/a/1PT870L
Looking back to Chapter 5 when the whole squad meets up in the Cathedral and goes over the case. One little bit stood out to me: "Date received everything as well via the device implanted in his eye socket". I too originally thought the eye socket was a mere wireless telepathic comms link, but that bit of dialogue creaked the door of possibility open. Yes, there's no telling how far tech has advanced in this world, it's not explained. But if brain-fixing nanomachines, PERGE, AI-Balls and their near-sentient AIs, Psync Machines, and Vocalochos are anything to go by, I'd say this world is well along enough in the solid-state memory space to store five days-worth of AI-Ball memories. Especially on sophisticated hardware like AI-Balls and eye socket devices.

That branch isn't canon though... as Mizuki couldn't know what Chikara said about Jin. But yeah, while I think Bibi is supposed to be Boss's proxy agent, we've surely been left in the dark about Boss. She could've been threatened by Tearer or worse and we wouldn't know it. Yeah, I'd like to see Boss in the thick of Somnium 3.

[Llyes]

yeah, you're reaching way too much

You're contradicting yourself on the outfit, I'm saying Bibi didn't change outfits between the two time periods

The drill scene was about her regrets of not being able to do more than she did, no doubt when she threw herself under the drill in reality it was a very gruesome scene that probably left enough visible damage to tip off Riichi about the experiments, he had to have found out from something

Bibi definitely never went to high school
I corrected it to her avoiding Kizuna but I guess the change didn't take. she would never set foot in that school as it would pose the risk of running into her little sis, and she had no intention of doing that.

There's no evidence of an ssd of the AI's memories being in the psyncher's heads, you should at least have a starting point for a theory, there's so many easier explanations.

Bibi heard about what Chikara said about his son's birth in the main simulation iteration in the abandoned factory, it then got integrated into her nightmare and Aiba taking the memory back into the psynch then causes the branch. It is then at the second branching somnium (Lien) that you have Boss observing the whole thing, and calling SAT on you on one branch and moving the box in the other.

All branches are cannon as they are all simply iterations of the simulation that are necessary for the big glitch that Tokiko is planning, the nil number itself might come from outside the simulation, as the glitch it causes is a null reference, meaning that it doesn't exist in the simulation in any way. If that's true, the very existence of the nil number violates causality, since Tokiko would have to escape the simulation first to plaster it on your screen in the first place.

[Tenacious J]

You're contradicting yourself on the outfit, I'm saying Bibi didn't change outfits between the two time periods

We only know she started donning the hood and mask at Chapter 5 in the past. Ryuki finds her in Hitomi's care.

Bibi definitely never went to high school
I corrected it to her avoiding Kizuna but I guess the change didn't take. she would never set foot in that school as it would pose the risk of running into her little sis, and she had no intention of doing that.

That makes SO much more sense.

There's no evidence of an ssd of the AI's memories being in the psyncher's heads, you should at least have a starting point for a theory, there's so many easier explanations.

That was my starting point. That's the first time we hear about being able receive any data directly without an AI-Ball. Since it doesn't say any more than that, I think Date probably didn't have a cell phone to store the data in as Psyncers with AI-Balls don't need them. Date monologued as much in the prequel saying that he "never cared for them". Mizuki is the only one who decided to carry one anyway over privacy concerns.

Bibi heard about what Chikara said about his son's birth in the main simulation iteration in the abandoned factory, it then got integrated into her nightmare and Aiba taking the memory back into the psynch then causes the branch. It is then at the second branching somnium (Lien) that you have Boss observing the whole thing, and calling SAT on you on one branch and moving the box in the other.

Hmm... I don't fully buy the logic but yeah, point taken. The game suddenly merges Lien's somnium outcomes with the main route at unlock. I see it now. What a fever dream the game turns into. Makes you really wonder where a sequel would begin.

[Lebadose]

Sorry for the necro

Originally posted by Tenacious J:

One is when Chikara's left half is discovered first-thing in Mizuki Chapter 2 "Traveler". Mizuki and Ryuki exchange like this:

Ryuki "..."
Mizuki "What's wrong?"
Ryuki "Well... Thinking about what happened six years ago... How could this happen...?"
Mizuki "..."
Ryuki "Anyway, that half of a body is definitely Chikara's. I saw Chikara's right half at Sekiba High. This is the other half.

Given the True Flowchart, there's no doubting Ryuki discovered both halves of Chikara. The problem is his pondering over six years ago. What called for this? At this point with True Flowchart revealed, we know this Mizuki is Bibi and that Chikara's murder takes place in the past. So what is it six years ago that Ryuki could be mulling over now? Had Ryuki experienced the case events as plotted in the Original Flowchart, it would make sense for Ryuki to think about Chikara's right half from "six years ago".

The thing that Ryuki is thinking about 6 years ago is his brother's death from being half crushed since the date coincides with the day before the anniversary of his death on 13/2/2014 which he reminisces about in Ryuki chapter 3.