This game and Ever 17 (SPOILERS for both)

[201]

Looking at the reviews, it appears I'm in the minority here, but I was super disappointed in the plot this time around.

Besides just plain not liking it, does anyone else think that some aspects of it feel recycled from Ever 17, which Uchikoshi also wrote? It's been about a decade since I played it, but from what I remember, the game's routes take place in two different time periods (unknown to the player), and that one of the characters is actually a different person in each time period, a mother and a daughter, who both go by the same nickname.

[dfm]

This is especially apparent if you've played the zero escape series. Yes, Uchikoshi really likes to recycle the tricks he used in previous stories, most prominently (possible spoilers for zero escape and maybe Uchikoshi works in general) the mechanics of transferring knowledge between timelines, although in AI it's not explained or otherwise relevant to the main plot, instead being handwaved as deja vu, mental illness or sheer luck

[201]

Originally posted by dfm:

Uchikoshi really likes to recycle the tricks he used in previous stories, most prominently (possible spoilers for zero escape and maybe Uchikoshi works in general) the mechanics of transferring knowledge between timelines, although in AI it's not explained or otherwise relevant to the main plot, instead being handwaved as deja vu, mental illness or sheer luck

True, though I brought up this point in particular because it's the big twist in each game, and not just a plot device.

[Rina (firstbass789)]

It's pretty similar to Ever17 I suppose but I think they deal with pretty different themes, Ever17 it all mostly works much better in my opinion. Here the twist adds a bit of flavor, it works but it doesn't save the fundamental flaws in the story. Overall a pretty good game but a pretty weak story.

[⎝⧹autarch⧸⎠]

Originally posted by 201:

does anyone else think that some aspects of it feel recycled from Ever 17, which Uchikoshi also wrote?

yeah, someone replied to a comment I wrote saying they thought it was similar to Ever 17:

Originally posted by YdenMkII:

My guess is the whole idea is just a rehash of the Ever 17 plot. The gist of Ever 17 is that you choose one of 2 protags to play the game with and you view the events based on each protag's point of view. Like this game the point of view actually happen in 2 different time periods designed to fool the player because the player is a higher dimension being that doesn't view events in chronological order.

This leads to the twist of the player in the role of Blick Winkel, that game's version of Frayer, using their knowledge of the 2 timelines to create a true one. The goal being the characters in the game are trying to fool the higher dimension being to break the rules of the world for their own ends similar to how Tokiko is trying to break the rules of the simulation by confusing the Frayer.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1449200/discussions/0/3418810706128689575/#c3418810706130698111

[Vitlöksbjörn]

When I heard the word Frayer and when I noticed characters saying stuff directly to the player it raised my eyebrow, and when I noticed the perspective shift I knew that this is going to be a recycled Ever17. Except Ever17 had a good reason for that.

[HOTHEAD]

Uchikoshi's entire deal is self-plagiarism, it's kind of his modus operandi.

[Ashura Mazah]

Originally posted by HOTHEAD:

Uchikoshi's entire deal is self-plagiarism, it's kind of his modus operandi.

That and perverted jokes.
The guy knows what he likes. I'm kind of a sucker for the themes he's going for in his stories, and although he doesn't nail it all the time I don't mind the repetition, but it's understandable if you do and would like to see something much different. For me the set dressing is enough.

That said, there's a big difference between this and Ever 17. In Ever 17 the entire point of the story revolves around you-know-what. Here, it's just an extra. Same with VLR. I was really hoping ZTD would take the secret ending of VLR and run the entire marathon with it, but nope.

[Llyes]

Originally posted by Poki#3:

Originally posted by HOTHEAD:

Uchikoshi's entire deal is self-plagiarism, it's kind of his modus operandi.

That and perverted jokes.
The guy knows what he likes. I'm kind of a sucker for the themes he's going for in his stories, and although he doesn't nail it all the time I don't mind the repetition, but it's understandable if you do and would like to see something much different. For me the set dressing is enough.

That said, there's a big difference between this and Ever 17. In Ever 17 the entire point of the story revolves around you-know-what. Here, it's just an extra. Same with VLR. I was really hoping ZTD would take the secret ending of VLR and run the entire marathon with it, but nope.

incorrect, the entire point of the nirvana initiative was to edit Ryuki's perception so that he would think that he was in the past at certain points in the future and then confuse the viewpoint of the player so that they couldn't differentiate between the two mizukis by using the intro sync as a bridge to transfer the edits along with the change in perspective to mizuki, causing the timeline from the player's perspective to become knotted and then pull on that knot with the offshoot timelines by making them necessary to progress the plot. Finally the player goes back with the nill number and punches through the weakened timeline, the entire story is about nothing but that.

[Ashura Mazah]

Originally posted by Llyes:

incorrect, the entire point of the nirvana initiative was to edit Ryuki's perception so that he would think that he was in the past at certain points in the future and then confuse the viewpoint of the player so that they couldn't differentiate between the two mizukis by using the intro sync as a bridge to transfer the edits along with the change in perspective to mizuki, causing the timeline from the player's perspective to become knotted and then pull on that knot with the offshoot timelines by making them necessary to progress the plot. Finally the player goes back with the nill number and punches through the weakened timeline, the entire story is about nothing but that.

Disagree.
I'll give you this: Tokiko wanted to find a Frayer (Fray + Player) and somehow sensed one in Ryuki, and that's why she did some of the stuff she did like commit suicide. In the nil timeline, she suceeded.
Note that just Tokiko got emancipated. The Nirvana Initiative that Tearer was plotting into motion (admitedly with Tokiko) was to break the entire world. They had nothing to do with the Frayer's perception or the order of events that's presented to us, unlike the characters in Ever 17. The Initiative itself doesn't take into account the presence of a Frayer at all, only a designer.

[Llyes]

Tearer specifically talked about wanting to give Tokiko a gift, you are really reaching with the rest of your nonsense there, Tokiko clearly knew for a fact that Ryuki was being manipulated by the plan and Tearer specifically called out Ryuki in the explosion ending for a reason, you are ignoring too many details to push your narative. Tearer's plan never had anything to do with emancipating all of humanity, much like Dahlia Boat that deception was a means to an end.

[YdenMkII]

Originally posted by Poki#3:

Disagree.
I'll give you this: Tokiko wanted to find a Frayer (Fray + Player) and somehow sensed one in Ryuki, and that's why she did some of the stuff she did like commit suicide. In the nil timeline, she suceeded.
Note that just Tokiko got emancipated. The Nirvana Initiative that Tearer was plotting into motion (admitedly with Tokiko) was to break the entire world. They had nothing to do with the Frayer's perception or the order of events that's presented to us, unlike the characters in Ever 17. The Initiative itself doesn't take into account the presence of a Frayer at all, only a designer.

I don't think Tokiko ever believed in the Nirvana Initiative or rather Tearer's version of it. She edited the whole victory speech footage that was set to play after the rocket spread the virus is the biggest tell for me. Everything seems to have been set up by her to pass on the Null number although I don't know how she learned the true nature of the world being a simulation but it was mentioned something changed her from caring too much about her son and accepting the whole human experimentation thing to being cold and detached.