Why is Nioh 2 seen as a gameplay masterpiece but this is seen as decent?

[alumlovescake]

People say its downgraded but how so? I have not played either but from what I heard I find hard to believe that they would do this when nioh 2 got such insane praise

[Alpo]

Just my opinion:
- (Nioh 2) Basically you play as you want from a "no damage", to a full tank. You have 1000 hours of fun trying builds and farming, but it's only good with the last DLC.
- (Wo long) For now, it's "only" parry/punish. It's fun enough for 80 hours at most (solo). But again, it's only the base game, no DLC yet (just wait 1 week and we'll see). So you can't (fairly) compare both games at the moment.

So Nioh 2 as a whole is a masterpiece, and Wo Long (base game) is decent.

[TropicalLad]

My general gist of why I feel Wo Long is a downgrade is its simplicity in comparison to Nioh 2 and even Nioh 1. It comes down to how fleshed out the weapons feel. Which doesn't make it inherently good or bad by comparison. There's strength in simplicity if done right.

In Wo Long, the only thing that separates Player A from B in using a specific type of weapon is the weapon skills

In Nioh, there's a three stance system with weapon skills tied to each stance. Each stance has the weapon attack differently and its fully customizable in a skill select menu

If you're familiar with these other games, it's like comparing Devil May Cry's combo complexities to the Dark Souls series weapon combat

[Mike]

As someone who put at least 250hrs in ALL of team Ninjas recent games (Nioh 1, Nioh 2, SoP;FFO) and only 40-50 (2 playthroughs) in Wu Long, I can say its because of player expression (in gameplay and builds), combat depth, and replayability.

Wu Long has very good looking and feeling combat but it leans more towards the action side of things while leaving the in-depth skill trees, deep RPG elements, more varied weapon movesets...etc, behind with their other games.

Nioh 1-2 and SOP had crazy in-depth combat, movelists, RPG stats to make unique builds around...etc. In Wu Long since the primary combat focus is parrying, the "RPG" nature of the past games is lost, because most of the time a combat encounter will just be parry the opponents attack string, then counter attack with your own combo. The combat is still good in Wu Long but for me (in its launch state) the combat depth and replayblility just did not live up to TN past 3 games.

I feel if a player disliked the complexity of TN past games then they will be more welcoming to Wu Long's changes over TN's other games, but if your like me who loves both the complex combat of the NIOH games and the deep RPG elements of the SoP: Final Fantasy game, then Wu Long leaves a lot to be desired in terms of replayablility.

The thing I will always give to TN though, is that with every DLC they add a TON of content that add a considerable amount of replayablility, builds, enemy types,....etc. When Strangers Of Paradise launched its end game was pretty barebones as well, but they supped that game up with each DLC and I'm expecting the same thing here. I'm looking forward to DLC 1 which drops next week (29th)

[Janett]

If Nioh 2 had a jump button this game might not even have a limb to stand on x.x

[level3]

Originally posted by alumlovescake:

People say its downgraded but how so?

The combat depth and itemization. Wo Long has better bossdesign/visuals and exploration elements, but the combat isnt even 1/10th of what nioh2 offers, unironically. Same thing for loot. Nioh had much more to offer in ways you could build your character. Maybe that will be rectified by Wo Long DLCs, but pretty sure that combat will never be as deep. Granted, i cant remember a single game with such great combat design as nioh2.

Originally posted by alumlovescake:

I find hard to believe that they would do this when nioh 2 got such insane praise

They tried to appeal a bigger playerbase i think. Thats the only thing that would justify such change. Eldenring has simple combat mechanics yet its very popular. With Wo Long they made it like something inbetween sekiro, eldenring and nioh. And it has pvp. Its different, its ok, but it will never be close to nioh.

[Baal / Patrick]

aside from content nioh 2s combat system with 3 stances, multiple abilities for every stance made combat just alot more fun

[matrix3509]

I'm lukewarm on Wo Long for the same reason I was lukewarm on Sekiro. Your only option for the whole game is parry. Its fun for a while, but gets boring and wears out its welcome by the end. The spells help keep things interesting for a little while, in the same way the different skills in Sekiro helped, but ultimately, both games are hampered by the fact there is only one way to approach combat.

I'm not even someone who messed around with lots of various builds in Nioh 2, but in that game at least you could change tactics, or change how you approach fighting enemies if they are giving you trouble. With Wo Long, the answer to a tough boss is always just "do it better idiot".

[楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE]

What is great about Nioh 2 combat. The 3 stances, High, Mid and Low.
Skill can be customizable for all three stances.
In tutorial the game teaches you very basic uses of the stances.

High - Generally Heavy attacks slower but do more damage. Good against everything.

Mid - Not exactly medium attack, just not as strong has high stance. You have the option for GUESS WHAT?!? PARRY!!!(SO WO LONG) Recommended for fighting human opponents... according to the game

Low - Well, most miserable damage stance but fast attack. Also allows for faster dodge. Good against yuokai or just nimble fighting stye.

Looks incredibly good on paper!!! Yeah. Try it, boring.

Usually I can just deal with pretty much most enemy with just one stance.

Now lets talk about armor. Light, medium, heavy.

They are just pretty skins... Light armor somehow give you the best agility. Awesome! Dodge dodge dodge dodge all the way baby!.

Heavy armor... looks pretty. According to pro Nioh 2 players, it helps reduce stamina/ki when you block attacks. Sure, so useful ye?

Medium Armor... Okay... cool.

End of the day, martial combat of this game is still build on traditional SOULS LIKE COMBAT SYSTEM with added flavour. Slower pace.

Weapon arts skill tree!!! So cool!!! then when you try them, you realize they are really just cool to look at. Usually you will just select the ones that is good, strong and effective. The rest. Nice to have you as an option.

Reach end game, omyo magic, Ninjitsu build cheese. Only some people like myself play 80~90% melee. Most of the people I coop spam the former two into their build as much as possible. How I know? Of the 700 over hours I played the game, 600 over hours I spent playing coop.

So, I am not saying that Nioh 2 is a bad game. I enjoyed it therefore 700 over hours. Whether or not it has "more" depth. It is your own bloody opinion. I really don't see it.

Simplicity isn't really simple, in Wo Long, a lot of Nioh 2 "pro" will tell you all he does is deflect... yeah sure. I played enough coop and solo at low morale games and pvp to know that they are full of it. Like Elden Ring, it may not have a good combat system as Nioh 2. It sure is more fun and I dare say, a more engaging fight then Nioh 2. Same thing with Wo Long.

You don't need quantity of skills to make combat "DEEP". You just need a smooth combat system that is reactive and satisfying, This is a person who played all dark souls games, played Sekiro, played Elden Ring, Nioh & Nioh 2 and finally Wo Long. They are all good game. You have your preference we have ours. My favourite is a draw between Wo Long and Elden Ring. Sekiro is too tough for me because my timing for deflect is bad and I am bad at rhythm memory.

You can check my profile for hours I played if you are so full of it.

Stop tell people they are casuals because they don't find Nioh 2 Deep... People these days and their superiority complex.

[VeraelHasta]

For me personally there are two things that make Wo Long way worse:
1. It is badly optimized. In a tight game like this it is realluy bad when your game suddenly SLOWS DOWN. No, not even fps drops - it literally slows down. So it messes up your timing all the time.

2. Random combos on a lot of enemies. A lot of them have a combo that can hit from 2 to 5 times. And you never know how many attacks the enemy will use. And a lot of them are staggered. Which makes fighting them unfun because you often keep waiting for another attack and it doesn't happen, so you start attacking but then the enemy starts a second combo. I really do hate this so much. It breaks the flow of combat.

I still have fun and I will play DLCs. I just hope they fix these 2 things and make the game smoother to play.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by matrix3509:

I'm lukewarm on Wo Long for the same reason I was lukewarm on Sekiro. Your only option for the whole game is parry. Its fun for a while, but gets boring and wears out its welcome by the end. The spells help keep things interesting for a little while, in the same way the different skills in Sekiro helped, but ultimately, both games are hampered by the fact there is only one way to approach combat.

I'm not even someone who messed around with lots of various builds in Nioh 2, but in that game at least you could change tactics, or change how you approach fighting enemies if they are giving you trouble. With Wo Long, the answer to a tough boss is always just "do it better idiot".

I feel pretty much the same. In nioh you could use your favorite approach and build your build around yourself. Here you don't really need anything. Atop on that all weapons are pretty much the same so it doesn't really matters which weapon/armor you use

[Nanashi]

IMO Nioh 2 is a bit overhyped in the same way Dark Souls is (sue me). Wo Long has its issues but I think the biggest reason why the reception has been so much different is the following.

Nioh 2 was a clear upgrade over Nioh 1 in everything except for the story-telling (yea, I prefer a non-mute MC even if I cannot create my own character). Wo Long on the other hand was missing features even Nioh 1 already had at release.

Add to this simple fact the performance issues at release and it's becoming quite clear why this game failed as bad as it did. And yes, despite my first sentence - Nioh 2 clearly is the better game. It's just not what people pretend it is.

---

That's the biggest part really. Another thing I noticed (and keep repeating I guess) is the similarity to Sekiro. Even here Wo Long clearly loses out because the combat in Sekiro is just a whole lot smoother. I played that game until I beat NG+8 with both handicaps active. On the other hand Wo Long I had to force myself to even just finish the NG playthrough.

While IMO Wo Long improves on the magic and skill mechanic over both Nioh2 and Sekiro and weapon options over Sekiro it absolutely loses any comparison on literally every other aspect against both games.

It's a shame because I really wanted to spend more time in the game. The game looks like it is meant to be played aggressively but the parry mechanic prevents that entirely because you cannot cancel any action which forces you to play it like Dark Souls. It's virtually the exact opposite of Nioh and Sekiro - both games reward aggression much more.

[Shivers]

Originally posted by 楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE:

What is great about Nioh 2 combat. The 3 stances, High, Mid and Low.
Skill can be customizable for all three stances.
In tutorial the game teaches you very basic uses of the stances.

High - Generally Heavy attacks slower but do more damage. Good against everything.

Mid - Not exactly medium attack, just not as strong has high stance. You have the option for GUESS WHAT?!? PARRY!!!(SO WO LONG) Recommended for fighting human opponents... according to the game

Low - Well, most miserable damage stance but fast attack. Also allows for faster dodge. Good against yuokai or just nimble fighting stye.

Looks incredibly good on paper!!! Yeah. Try it, boring.

Usually I can just deal with pretty much most enemy with just one stance.

Now lets talk about armor. Light, medium, heavy.

They are just pretty skins... Light armor somehow give you the best agility. Awesome! Dodge dodge dodge dodge all the way baby!.

Heavy armor... looks pretty. According to pro Nioh 2 players, it helps reduce stamina/ki when you block attacks. Sure, so useful ye?

Medium Armor... Okay... cool.

End of the day, martial combat of this game is still build on traditional SOULS LIKE COMBAT SYSTEM with added flavour. Slower pace.

Weapon arts skill tree!!! So cool!!! then when you try them, you realize they are really just cool to look at. Usually you will just select the ones that is good, strong and effective. The rest. Nice to have you as an option.

Reach end game, omyo magic, Ninjitsu build cheese. Only some people like myself play 80~90% melee. Most of the people I coop spam the former two into their build as much as possible. How I know? Of the 700 over hours I played the game, 600 over hours I spent playing coop.

So, I am not saying that Nioh 2 is a bad game. I enjoyed it therefore 700 over hours. Whether or not it has "more" depth. It is your own bloody opinion. I really don't see it.

Simplicity isn't really simple, in Wo Long, a lot of Nioh 2 "pro" will tell you all he does is deflect... yeah sure. I played enough coop and solo at low morale games and pvp to know that they are full of it. Like Elden Ring, it may not have a good combat system as Nioh 2. It sure is more fun and I dare say, a more engaging fight then Nioh 2. Same thing with Wo Long.

You don't need quantity of skills to make combat "DEEP". You just need a smooth combat system that is reactive and satisfying, This is a person who played all dark souls games, played Sekiro, played Elden Ring, Nioh & Nioh 2 and finally Wo Long. They are all good game. You have your preference we have ours. My favourite is a draw between Wo Long and Elden Ring. Sekiro is too tough for me because my timing for deflect is bad and I am bad at rhythm memory.

You can check my profile for hours I played if you are so full of it.

Stop tell people they are casuals because they don't find Nioh 2 Deep... People these days and their superiority complex.

We've been over this, Nioh 2 combat is deep, you just don't get how to utilise it. If anyone has a superiority complex it is you, with your claims of veteranism whilst stating factually incorrect things based in opinion. Nioh 2's combat system, regardless of your resentment for diverse build variety, Is far more polished than Wo Long's despite it's simplicity, Wo long has very little genuine flow, the parrying is easy in an unsatisfying manner, and despite the premise of Wo Long's story being a hero of no renown rising to become legendary, the combat remains as simplistic and unchallenging throughout the entire game as it is at the start. Wo Long's story would justify having a system like nioh 2 has in it, but instead it attempted to mimic sekiro without sekiro's best feature, the grappling hook, and in doing so appealed to none of the nioh 2 fanbase that they marketed the game to primarily, and failing on that front means wasted marketing and a loss of trust in future marketing. Whether or not you like Wo Long's combat though, the truth is it was a massive marketing mistake, you can't deny it.

[bob]

Comparing Nioh 2 to Wo long is like comparing rotten apples to rotten oranges. Both games have a replay-ability life of about 1-3 weeks. Like yes they initially taste good, but in a few weeks no one touches them anymore.

So stop with the garbage comparisons, you stank lovers.

[GuiGuix[Pedro]]

The best comparaison possible is how Nioh 2 and this game are compared to Sekiro.
-Many a person played Sekiro as parry L1 simulator, but the truth is, if you look at combo vids from people who know what they do and unlocked everything, the potential to essentially use parries as just a way to not get hit and keep your insanely cool combo going is 100% there.
It's easy to use, hard to master, and looks super cool when mastered and understood.

-Nioh 2 works like that, with the right build, game knowledge and skills, you can wail on enemies stamina bars and combo yourself into a Ninja gaiden style ancient warrior.

-In Wo long, the parry system IS the best you can do in terms of cool factor, the parries of missiles look cool, the ability to flow with the enemies do, but one you mastered that, the offense side of things suck. The hits aren't really combos, there's not combo with heavy, it's always a finisher, really, and the weapon arts are cool but very samey, with some downright bad and some downright broken.
Wo long got defense right, but not offense, Nioh 2 had both done right.
Granted Nioh 2 really became a GG after its dlc finalized the loot system and build potential, wo long suffered from lack of funds and rn has no dlcs till june 29th, and it's the first.
So we'll see

[楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE]

Originally posted by Albedo:

Originally posted by 楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE:

What is great about Nioh 2 combat. The 3 stances, High, Mid and Low.
Skill can be customizable for all three stances.
In tutorial the game teaches you very basic uses of the stances.

High - Generally Heavy attacks slower but do more damage. Good against everything.

Mid - Not exactly medium attack, just not as strong has high stance. You have the option for GUESS WHAT?!? PARRY!!!(SO WO LONG) Recommended for fighting human opponents... according to the game

Low - Well, most miserable damage stance but fast attack. Also allows for faster dodge. Good against yuokai or just nimble fighting stye.

Looks incredibly good on paper!!! Yeah. Try it, boring.

Usually I can just deal with pretty much most enemy with just one stance.

Now lets talk about armor. Light, medium, heavy.

They are just pretty skins... Light armor somehow give you the best agility. Awesome! Dodge dodge dodge dodge all the way baby!.

Heavy armor... looks pretty. According to pro Nioh 2 players, it helps reduce stamina/ki when you block attacks. Sure, so useful ye?

Medium Armor... Okay... cool.

End of the day, martial combat of this game is still build on traditional SOULS LIKE COMBAT SYSTEM with added flavour. Slower pace.

Weapon arts skill tree!!! So cool!!! then when you try them, you realize they are really just cool to look at. Usually you will just select the ones that is good, strong and effective. The rest. Nice to have you as an option.

Reach end game, omyo magic, Ninjitsu build cheese. Only some people like myself play 80~90% melee. Most of the people I coop spam the former two into their build as much as possible. How I know? Of the 700 over hours I played the game, 600 over hours I spent playing coop.

So, I am not saying that Nioh 2 is a bad game. I enjoyed it therefore 700 over hours. Whether or not it has "more" depth. It is your own bloody opinion. I really don't see it.

Simplicity isn't really simple, in Wo Long, a lot of Nioh 2 "pro" will tell you all he does is deflect... yeah sure. I played enough coop and solo at low morale games and pvp to know that they are full of it. Like Elden Ring, it may not have a good combat system as Nioh 2. It sure is more fun and I dare say, a more engaging fight then Nioh 2. Same thing with Wo Long.

You don't need quantity of skills to make combat "DEEP". You just need a smooth combat system that is reactive and satisfying, This is a person who played all dark souls games, played Sekiro, played Elden Ring, Nioh & Nioh 2 and finally Wo Long. They are all good game. You have your preference we have ours. My favourite is a draw between Wo Long and Elden Ring. Sekiro is too tough for me because my timing for deflect is bad and I am bad at rhythm memory.

You can check my profile for hours I played if you are so full of it.

Stop tell people they are casuals because they don't find Nioh 2 Deep... People these days and their superiority complex.

We've been over this, Nioh 2 combat is deep, you just don't get how to utilise it. If anyone has a superiority complex it is you, with your claims of veteranism whilst stating factually incorrect things based in opinion. Nioh 2's combat system, regardless of your resentment for diverse build variety, Is far more polished than Wo Long's despite it's simplicity, Wo long has very little genuine flow, the parrying is easy in an unsatisfying manner, and despite the premise of Wo Long's story being a hero of no renown rising to become legendary, the combat remains as simplistic and unchallenging throughout the entire game as it is at the start. Wo Long's story would justify having a system like nioh 2 has in it, but instead it attempted to mimic sekiro without sekiro's best feature, the grappling hook, and in doing so appealed to none of the nioh 2 fanbase that they marketed the game to primarily, and failing on that front means wasted marketing and a loss of trust in future marketing. Whether or not you like Wo Long's combat though, the truth is it was a massive marketing mistake, you can't deny it.

So your OPINION is more "objective" than my OPINION. Got it. This never fails to amuse me.