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Nah, not at all. The fighting and the smoothing out of quest progression, taking emphasis off of village stuff. It's stuff I think most people, this kind of response included, take for granted. What I do think you're describing is how most people see or experience Monster Hunter, and I think the way they describe what they're doing would be very telling.
"I look for the meta sets, I kill monsters and complain about drops."
Admittedly, again, I don't think these are things the series has necessarily figured out either. Go figure. They are markedly worse or less interesting in the modern games, but the modern games are super convenient in feel but those aren't really solutions to things like "You broke a part and get a 1-4% drop chance." If anything, Rise brings that back and I think that's where you have to maybe consider not letting RPG stats/mechanics do all the lifting for your game.
If I play Monster Hunter 3 right now, I'll likely run into these issues but I also feel much more rewarded for, say, going out into the wild to do stuff vs an actual quest. I'm not fixated on combat, which is where I think people just lose the ability to discern that that's all they're really focused on doing and, sure enough, it's fun watching folks get choked out by a Monkey's Paw.
The largest issue with this is that some (maybe many, idk, I can only speak for myself) experienced players of Monster Hunter games no longer utilized the map, paintballs, or really did any planning at all, we just used the most efficient route to get to where the monster spawns from wherever we're dropped into the map at random. This preparation factor has, in fact, been dwindling rapidly ever since Freedom Unite. I think the last time I actually packed poison anything for Kushala was FU, and haven't really bothered since because it was completely unnecessary in the subsequent games.
Once you learn to look at a monster's shadow as it leaves an area, there was no need to paintball or to go get a map from the box (and the games actively disincentivized you from doing so because you'd get dropped in randomly around the map, and who's going to waste a farcaster to get back to camp when you could either just remember where the monster starts at the beginning of a specific quest, or just pop a Psychoserum?).
In fact, the introduction of Psychoserum was probably one of the first time I had ever read on a gaming forum that an in-game item is cheating (lol you could probably google "Psychoserum is cheating" to find the cognitive dissonance of discussion that old Monster Hunter boards used to be. It was as much a meme as the "pack thunder res or get kicked from Boltreaver Astalos hunts"). Sorry, small digression there. The point being that ever since the introduction of Psychoserum, the need for maps, paintballs, etc., were basically unnecessary once you could craft the delicious orange drink. People used to decry that using the farm to acquire new items without going out and gathering them manually was cheating too. Monster Hunter fans are a funny, picky bunch, lol.
In any event, World came along and made Psychoserum redundant. After the first hunt or two, most monsters automatically showed up on the map in World too (unless you forgot to talk to the researcher guy), and this was consistent across my 1k hours on PS4 and 400+ on PC. Pick up a few tracks, talk to the old book wyverian, and enjoy never wishing for a Psychoserum again. Rise just kinda continued what World started.
Truth be told, I actually appreciate the whole approach that lets us get right to the monster I want to hunt, though I do understand how some people might miss that approach to design. But while I sympathize, I will say that I do enjoy the game not making me waste even more of my time and letting me to get right into putting arrows or axes between the eyes of giant chonky monsters.
I'd be fine with them keeping the old style, "You gotta get a map from the box and paintball the monster" approach to game design assuming they still keep Psychoserums in the game, since I just want to get in, get parts, and make new pants. But I don't want to have to "wander around, explore, and take in the world" every single hunt across thousands of hours since I've played these games since before sloped ground even existed in them, and I just want to duke it out with dragons and play dress up.
The only problem is there is no meaningful event quest that will keep you entertaining till the next major update hit . The only thing left to do is gacha qurio grinding which can be quite boring to some people and the odd of getting good skills ...ugh...
As for monster show up in the map , i have no problem with how they done in World , you still have to do some grindings before you get to see them on the map all the time and the act of getting monster tracks made me feel like a hunter . In Rise they just hand me down like i am a clueless person .
The thing is that your argument assumes that everyone has this information as well as the fake realist argument that there wasn't a better way to fix this.
For instance, in Freedom Unite at the very least, if you use the wave gesture on the Commission Balloons, the commission will spot the monster location for you once. I think actually finding ways to, say, make the commission matter beyond stupid fetch quests and making them non-entities save for flavor and details that, let's face it, really don't matter in a game that feels it wants to both escalate and up the stakes while having details that supposedly "matter" beyond trivia. On a per-game basis, I think the advantage of creating a game that is interesting and evocative of the concept of being a hunter goes to the games prior to World and Rise.
The fact you're referencing Psychoserum, which takes up inventory space so it was at least a decision you had to make as far as "What can I expend/give up so I can get lots of carves in multi-hunts/other situations" which means that it's still a decision that in some way has remnants of "planning your gear", and then acknowledging you "can just be good at the past games/just know", that's showing a genuine lack of imagination. Paintballs aren't a great idea, but "flies" and "Owl is constantly spotting for you" is just really failing to actually be a good designer in terms of maintaining or iterating on the idea of preparation/tracking/collaboration as something that really matters both in the setting of the game or just for players themselves.
Not every form of preparation or play involved the examples you used either. I don't think it's a crapshoot, and just making it so that you fight monsters in this way that makes their physiology just not matter, making it so that each game has such a recurring cast of monsters because "Oh no, someone might be mad if Rathalos/DevilJho/Some Monster isn't in the game" is just cowardice.
The preparation aspect really does matter because, here's an example you neglected to mention, if you leave base without eating, you don't get to eat in the field. Period. There is no "field chow", you can't take all of your gear with you. I think what matters is that, mixed in this game are types of play where actually having to represent the logic of a hunt matters.
When you trade in convenience so someone goes "But what if I want to hunt everything all at once", you grind out the details that made Monster Hunter about hunting and not just a milquetoast semi-MMO.
I think there's an assumption that every rough edge in the past was purely about inconveniencing a player or, in the case of what you said, it's too late to remedy issues with memorization. That we somehow can't just actually design a better Monster Hunter.
It's very clear that there are people who don't even understand just how convenient Rise is relative to the older games. I saw someone say "I had to learn to cook and the game didn't show me" when the further layer of that is that... cooking meat in the field doesn't matter and isn't necessary. You can produce a ton of Well-Done Steaks at the cook/Yomogi.
A big issue is that with Monster Hunter of the past is that you basically decide to just "stop when you've had enough" which I think World of all games definitely tried to avoid doing. That is an improvement, but the way you reach that is fraught with things that absolutely trivialize or negate the whole conceit of the game. Investigations with "boxes" (WORLD/ICEBORNE) or Anomaly Investigations (Sunbreak/Iceborne guy) are what I'd say are actual affronts to the whole combat system of the series.
No one loves stingy drop rates, but doing things like the former makes it so attacking monsters in a specific way doesn't matter (not that that logic ever made sense from the perspective of hunting or was ever naturalized well in game as to why you can't extract things from a whole corpse). Something I liked about Rise was that they included drop percentages and did make it so capturing or carving did matter to some degree in terms of getting drops...
But Anomaly Investigations are so perplexingly bad because of how fights are designed, where you're just directed to hit lit hit zones so you can kill things with inflated HP values in this way that is just very much presenting the idea of knowing a monster's physiology in most cases, as meaningless.
I think saying "Well actually it wasn't about planning ever and we should just give up" is really making a lot of bold claims about just what changed and how, and whether every player even does this or whether a designer could remedy this. "The Old World" Monster Hunter definitely is NOT just "less convenient Monster Hunter." In many cases those games are willing to do things in an imaginative way that Monster Hunter World and Rise don't even TRY to improve on in a meaningful way. That is damning.
Sure, that's fine, but the purpose behind why I mentioned Psychoserum specifically is because it's not just once per quest- it's a way to find a monster on demand up to three times for 1 measly slot in your pouch. Even as an old world gunner from FU forward, I still found room for these in my pouch if I hadn't already memorized where monsters typically spawn.
Using pouch slots was basically negligible the moment Capcom made the gunner pouch and field pouches things (so, since at least Tri and P3rd, I'm pretty sure). Once they give you an inventory page that you only get while on the hunt, I carried a full item and gunner pouch (for combines, combination books, etc) every single hunt with reckless abandon, and was never punished for it by the games in the slightest.
You don't say? I didn't list off every single possible example in a passing-by comment, not providing a full dissertation of each potential example and outcome? Color me surprised. *Edit:* Reading this back, this sounds more condescending than I intended, I'm not going to cut it and get accused of edit-sniping, but I will say I didn't intend to be a **** with this specific reply, and I apologize it comes off like that, reading it back.
You likely mean ecology since you're connecting this to the monsters and their environments, but I don't see the recurring use of monsters as a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, so squeezing them in however they can is a good thing imo. My absolute favorite Monster Hunter game is Generations Ultimate, though, which means I'm fine with the rule of cool and flagships being present for any reason whatsoever (unfortunately for Lagiacrus).
Yeah, and all this did was waste everyone's time should you have forgotten since you have to send out a message that you're abandoning the Abyssal hunt because you forgot to eat, or you forgot cool drinks, or whatever. I legitimately just consider those time wasters because you either have to beg others to give you the items, or you need to abandon so you don't triple cart in the Ex Boltreaver hunt your friendly neighborhood gunner is carrying you through ;)
Awful lot of words in my mouth here about things you absolutely know I didn't say in my long rambling post about appreciating being able to get right into the core gameplay loop rather than run around and gather tracks and other nonsense.
You've been able to have the cooks make Well-Done Steaks for you for a while, that's not a new-to-Rise thing.
I mean, I do appreciate not having to spend an absolute assload of time grinding out herbs, honey, etc. like I did on the PSP and PS2, and that by setting up the farm and the supplemental systems in each game, I can do more of the thing *I* enjoy, ie hunting monsters, yes. But shortcuts like these have existed in these games for the better part of a decade if not more, and most people don't bother cooking a ton of Well-Done Steaks during an expedition or hunt when they could just get Dash Extract from a Gypceros or whatever might else have it, and dupe that. Or in the case of GU, land your purple cats on a Gypceros space in Meownster Hunters to give you all the Dash Extracts you could ever want while the fondue cooks will get you all the steaks you need to combine into Mega Dash Juices. lol I can't be the only one who remembers gunner ammo and extract duping hubs, right?
You don't need to attack the lit up hit zones. Hitting weak spots on the monster will cause the glowing spots to burst (I'm a gunner, if I didn't attack the singular bow weak spot on a monster, my hunts would take 20+ minutes. Meanwhile, I've made Seething Bazel reach 153 and I can clear a hunt with a 153 Seething + Diablos in around 5-5:30 minutes). If you solely attack weak spots you will notice the Anomaly monsters will never do their explosions and they will get exhausted at least once or twice across the course of your 5-8 minute hunt. Anomaly Investigations are actually substantially simpler to tackle than 140GQs with Apex monsters from 4U, because at least here you don't have to muck about with Wystones.
I mean, it's a really good thing I didn't say that, and instead just said some things about how I like Rise's approach to let me get to the part of the game I, specifically, find fun. I even started my post with, "Idk, I can only speak for myself" and you're talking as if I make some kind of grand value judgment.
Agreed. There are some elements of older Monster Hunters that are less convenient, but assuming you actually keep up on your farm, you can keep your own grinding down to a minimum if that's not something you enjoy. If it is something you enjoy... then have at it. *I* just don't want to spend a ton of time gathering herbs and stuff anymore- I think I specifically got tired of those quests around the time Generations came out (could it be because I felt compelled to do *all* of the quests in order to obtain the Hayabusa Feather... Maybe). In any event, I still play 3U, 4U, and GU to this day. If you ever see Pimpadour, Pimpsalot, or Pimparina in those games, say hello.
I mean, I will straight up say that a Monster Hunter game trying to be realistic would have never given us the greatest final boss ever in golden Gundam bug. Ahtal-Ka is legit my favorite final boss in the entire series, and I hope that they keep jet comet dragon in main line Monster Hunters and do more imaginative concepts in the future, for sure.
Good talk. I always do enjoy hearing about other people's points of view, even if I don't specifically agree with them.
Again, this absolutely gets to the heart of basically anything you think you're not saying in your post, cause you absolutely did despite having that weird "I'm actually talking with myself" angle:
The difference with, say, your Gypceros, example is that it rewards being resourceful... and that you don't start just making Dash Juices. You have to progress and build up to that.
So while I don't necessarily agree with the way you see that progression, I'm not here to have a discussion about your "preference." I'm fine with, say, Generations Ultimate having Ah-tal Ka, but you're exactly the type of intellectually dishonest person who thinks they can pull a fast one in describing "Well we've been *gives two entirely disparate examples that aren't actually the thing they're arguing exists for a decade."
If just scrolling through your post, yeah we agree on some things... but I definitely think you are exactly the type of person who thinks that a Monster Hunter game should try to do everything and that it can "just work" when, honestly, at this point a bold decision would actually, say, try to make a unique ecology.
I think the wheel can usually turn, but it's very clear why, say, certain segments of Monster Hunter games don't just amount to "je ne sais quoi" or, you, clearly just having some questionable BS.
Because, again, the way you could create shortcuts in old games was tied to progression and the way those things tied into the field or the way it's incentivized by the game matter. But you are precisely the player who takes that for granted or uses disingenuous examples that take the actual design of the game for granted.
When you talk about "Well now we do this", I think players being emergently resourceful is very different than a mechanic like scoutflies. Again, let's look at the start of your post for your disingenous, fake realism:
"That's just once per quest."
Well, no, that's not really the problem or the point. I've shown that there is a potential in the game to actually retain elements of play that are about the feeling of hunting instead of your unimaginative, boring vision or idea of Monster Hunter. So to you, you want to show how in the know you are, and I frankly don't really think that's important. You slip in a statement about Ah-tal Ka and, honestly, I don't think that it's a bad thing for a game like Generations Ultimate to exist, so long as you know that you can't really keep making a game like that over and over without, gasp, inevitably designing yourself into a corner. Because Generations Ultimate is a compilation of games, it has to rely on other titles and the feelings they created in players.
Hoping that social media can bolster that feeling isn't really going to work over time, perpetually, save for drawing in potential fanatics.
There really is a reason why Generations, World and Rise would draw comparisons to one another while folks take the actual design of these games for granted. Like lying about when and how "just making Dash Juices" occurs. It's not that those things don't happen, it's that they're not just given to you, and there's definitely likely a way to improve or design the games in a such a way where players aren't just playing the worst parts of a social game.
Note how you didn't know this bit about a gesture spotting the monster and your response was immediately to frame it as how "inside" or "in the know" you were or how effective the strategy was... the problem is that wasn't the point. It's that, wow, instead of just telling the player where the monster is, there is still the potential to make it, "balanced" vs giving up on the idea of hunting and how a game can represent that. Especially when a detail like "wave at the balloon" is a much better concept than "drink a spotting potion cause it's magic." It's amazing that a game like World used Scoutflies vs creating variation, Scoutflies would have been interesting in a cavernous structure like, say, the Rotted Veil.
So I'm showing "You can imagine aspects, effortlessly, of a better game than what has been made. That's not a good thing to be able to make these kind of observations."
While Monster Hunter, I'm convinced, won't actually iterate on these things that have always existed in an interesting way, that's okay. The point is we can look back and see how there are elements on the table, just left there, in favor of just giving up or giving someone a fight with a monster for their (your) instant gratification.
When I talk about, say, incorporating the Hunter's Commission in an interesting way, it's to make it so that the details and play of the game have a good synthesis of Free form and Instrumental Play.
So you being in the know, again, I think that's quaint you know stuff or can lie/mislead about exactly what functions these games have... but that wasn't what I was talking about, your preference I mean. But it's good to have someone who is a good example of why a fan of Monster Hunter doesn't actually like Monster Hunter, enough to make the kind of weird statements you've made.
"We just make Dash Juices" (deliberately lying about when this happens). Just because you know to do something doesn't mean it just happens, and the way that it comes about is what was interesting about old Monster Hunter. That building up to that, building up the village, building your knowledge of ecology and such, wasn't just something to smooth over.
The fact you're a gunner and saying "You don't need to hit the glowy spots" already shows that you're not really willing to acknowledge how the inflated HP values alone change how you do Anomaly Investigation hunts and how that's fundamentally different for most fights. You would do this weird nerd exercise where you oscillate between "top tier builds and knowledge" and cowering behind regular players or something. You're a very disingenuous person, because you're equating game knowledge with understanding, say, fight design.
Just because you have a solution, you're arguing that that's going to be the predominant way people know how to play and, worst of all, with folks who do know how to play, you're ignoring that inevitably every monster turns into Teostra and homogenizes the fights... or effectively alters the pacing of, say, a fight with a monster who doesn't have the Anomaly gimmick.
And not only that... only a gunner would try to use the overall damage you give to diffuse the Quirio Burst effect as a "you don't have to shoot the glowing spots." You mean the spots that make hunting the monster faster and make it so you don't have to necessarily hold the Monster exploding, rewarding you for skilled or efficient play? Exactly what side on the contrarian expertise are you on? Because being coy and patronizing is just not very endearing when you're being this weird sort of charlatan.
Like, you lied about exactly what knowing to make Dash Juices means by equating it to Yomogi cooking Well-Done Steaks for you. You think that's the same. They're not! I actually think knowing to hunt Gypceros is smart and very different from ordering well-done steaks that are made for you. Which intersects with other stuff... like, again, these things add up for what you're trying to put forth.
Because, really, say with a straight face that a fight with an Anomaly Monster is fundamentally the same as a non-infected monster. When you admit that it's not, I'm going to say, it's not something to just get along about or agree to disagree about. I would rather worry about getting a tail cut than a stupid gimmick where you're not worrying about preventing a monster from exploding into an instant stun blood cloud. Which, while I know how to play around and win, isn't nearly as interesting as something that isn't even more detached from the fantasy of hunting.
There's a very different feeling in having multiple layers of part breaks vs focusing on, say, the monster itself. A large reason those Investigations exist is to justify the power creep that occurs, but I actually did do just fine with sets that resemble meta stuff you could find on Reddit pages.
It's just that Flaming Espinas is a much better hunt than trying to iterate on a history of silly ideas. Like I should be grateful that Anomaly hunts don't involve Wystones, vs the fact I'm just pointing out that these ideas have never really been good. We just tolerate them because Monster Hunter for a lot of people is a game they usually just stop playing when they decide they are satisfied/contented.
Having played Generations Ultimate to its conclusion clearing all possible quests... I was much more satisfied with how I left off of other Monster Hunter games that I hadn't even played to completion. There was a hunt that involved like, Furious Rajang, some form of Zinogre and Shagaru Magala that needed to be won by using Smoke Bombs... it was such a stretch of the whole hunting premise that I can easily say, no one is missing out on anything by never ever doing it other than maybe a weird completionist tic they may or may not have by not doing it.
Within Monster Hunter are ideas that I would really call brazen betrayals of player trust or just complete wastes of time save for fanatics. We should probably not appeal to fanatics.
Again, I think the one good thing World/Iceborne did was add something that wraps up its standard narrative in a more definitive way, it's one of the better things they did with dialogue/cutscenes.
"You don't have to", actually, ... you kind of do, no one was talking about the brute force you apply. So doing some weird nerd ♥♥♥♥ is just really where I think the game is more or less headed, and it's definitely gonna be good for someone like you.
So, what, you don't have to progress and build up to having a fully functioning farm in World or Rise, and you don't have to level your cats to continue to get items from this game's equivalent from Meownster Hunters to use the more efficient methods of buddy bargaining?
You call me intellectually dishonest, but you're blatantly ignoring methods that players do, actively, have to build up because you don't seem to like them since they're not directly within hunts or expeditions.
Then why the hell are you talking with me, when clearly all I've said from my first reply in this thread have been my own preferences? You're being performatively aggressive for practically no reason.
Unlocking additional slots for your farm or utilizing Meownster Hunters and the fondue chefs in MHGU to cook Well-Done Steaks for you is by no means a disingenuous example. You, in fact, are the one who brought up Well-Done Steaks, and I told you explicitly that you could do that in a past game, and went a step further to explain how you could also obtain the most valuable stamina-boosting item in the entirety of Generations Ultimate without having to hunt a single additional Gypceros because you could use the purple trap cats on the purple monster icon. Methinks you're trying to cover for your own ill-informed opinion, truthfully.
All you've shown is one of multiple methods to do the exact same action (show monsters on the map), arbitrarily declared it as superior, and said very little else to convince someone of a contradictory opinion in comparison to your own. You say you've shown it, but from the perspective of someone who doesn't share your view, you just said an opinion. And I don't have to care about what you think is better when there's items and food skills that serve the same purpose for the general player.
What the hell are you talking about? How is farming extracts from Meownster Hunters a lie, precisely? Explain that clearly, and show your work. Otherwise this is yet another bloviation from someone being overly aggro for little reason.
And once again you're doing an awful lot of assuming. So sorry I didn't give every specific example possible, and in my attempt to share my love for the series to calm down someone acting extremely aggressive for 0 reason, somehow made you act even worse.
I don't think there's been considerable enough effort put in to explain it as balanced or unbalanced. You clearly know which one I, specifically, prefer, but something being balanced or not is a completely separate discussion that I didn't instigate.
You may find this surprising, but I don't actually care what your ideal is.
Oh, I see what this is now, Dash Extract is rarity 4 so you're going over the top and accusing me of lying, rather than of simply misremembering something at 1AM. So to really drive that home, you completely ignore stuff like using Meownster Hunters to farm Dash Extracts, because you want to cover up the dumb thing you said about Well-Done Steaks which you could get from the cooks in previous games, as well.
I gotcha. Well, I can admit that I definitely made a misteak (lol) in claiming you could dupe the mats for Mega Dash Juices, I was likely thinking of Catalysts, which are used to make Dash Juices, not Mega ones, specifically. That's on me. You're right.
Your statement acting like Yomogi in Rise is the first time you could get a ton of steaks from the cook still is wrong, but hey, I at least think I figured out the reason why you've been hyper aggressive at me for basically no reason in this reply, especially.
So uh, this time I'm definitely not leaving you with a good talk lol. You can reply, but you can bet your bottom I won't be reading, champ. You have yourself a great night, and I hope the next person you overly aggressively attack is as nice to you as I was. Peace.
also, and i'm not re-reading it all again (so apologies if misremembered stuff or anything), but at least one of your first posts sounded like a massive chunk of nothingburgers from someone pretending to know more about the game than he actually did.
complaining about 'rng boxes' in the endgame of world&rise, but basically all the games did the same thing except in a different form? And, like, would you prefer we have an endgame that DIDN'T involve hunting monsters or something? very confusing. how would a much better MH game look to you? in terms of doing completely new changes, i mean. i'm really curious
Sorry for such a late reply but this is wrong, scoutfly level decays after not hunting the same monster, that means that you will have to track it again to lvl up, only at max lvl it will show monster from start.
Nah, all I want is violence so I spit on your "peace" and your patronizing. Thanks. Like, you clearly subscribe to the school of Ludology while de-emphasizing play. All of our exchanges would be me schooling you on things you take for granted, so it was good to watch you basically do line item attempts at the nerd bit of going "actually." You just aren't saying anything. But the writing is more or less on the wall. Monster Hunter isn't the only game suffering from catering to people such as yourself.
In fact, scoutflies might "decay", but if you actually put the context of how most people played Monster Hunter, the decay doesn't really matter, because the rate at which it refreshes is negligible, I literally stopped playing for like 1-2 years and picked up one set of tracks... and they're back. And what does knowledge even prove? I'm not trying to talk about how good I can be at exploiting Monster Hunter World, that's YOUR conceit. At that point, we're not really talking about the thing of Monster Hunter itself, we're just trying to emphasize, poorly, the "gamey" aspect of "How do scoutflies work" vs "What am I playing?"
Again, you're the person who thinks that farming Gypceros is the same as asking Yomogi to make you steaks. Go kick rocks, it was a pleasure to tell you how nerdy you are while you try to present having "technical knowledge" as something that I absolutely don't know how to do or something. But I do... it was boring for the most part until the fights in Iceborne at least hit their stride. Which were the last few updates, but time wasters like Investigation boxes... Guiding Lands making exploration and discovery generic... all of those just made for a less interesting Monster Hunter.
What's really funny, again, about your Gypceros example is that... that's still better than telling Yomogi to make you steaks. It involves planning a hunt, knowing where the Gypceros is, and farming it. Is there a way to do that better? I bet, but hunting and gathering is the style of play at work there, vs paying someone money. At that point, why aren't there grocery stores in Monster Hunter?
It kind of flies in the face of the conceit of the gameplay, which is my point. Which you keep proving. Thanks.