How do you avoid these 2 attacks?

[Uzkniso o.o]

How to avoid the following attacks:
1. Ambush by Crimson Glow Valstrax;
2. Double explosion by Flaming Espinas?

For 1, other than running away from the area, what else can you do, to not take damage?
As for 2: the first explosion is easy to avoid if you anticipate, but what about the one where it jumps into the air and spits a homing one?

P.S. I don't really mind getting owned by Valstrax, because it is supposed to be a special Elder Dragon, but Flaming Espinas deals the most damage in the game, which is nonsense. Even Risen Elders don't do that much damage. What were the devs thinking here? A level ~125 Flaming Espinas left me poisoned with 5% HP, so I bet, a 135+ one will 1-shot anything and anyone.

[Remi]

Messaggio originale di Cig Bock:

yeah i understand that, what i mean was something like, why would the dev set espinas bar on the same level as the EDs, i can understand rajang and deviljho but espinas? really? that thing shouldnt even surpass a mizutsune imo

Regular Espinas can tie with a Kushala Daora, lifting the dragon made entirely out of metal off the ground, as well as tanking wind blasts like they're nothing.

Jho and other ED-level non elders aren't getting through Espinas either, he's even stronger than Nergigante lore wise as Nergigante can't beat any elder dragon in a 1 on 1 fight, but instead has to prey on old or almost dead elders to succeed. Espinas would obliterate Nergigante, Espi's physically superior and has status.

[Toxi]

For the ambush, I either look at the minimap to my direction and Val's location, or I look in the sky where the star is stopping.

For Flaming Espinas, I sheathe if I have to, or I use EE2 and switch skill to avoid it. The same goes to all those other TU monsters, Silverlos, Goldian, etc., I think from this point on you have to get Evade Extender to avoid their attacks, if you wanna be on the safe side I mean, it's an invaluable skill that works on both rolls, hops and switch skill evade.

Messaggio originale di Uzkniso o.o:

P.S. I don't really mind getting owned by Valstrax, because it is supposed to be a special Elder Dragon, but Flaming Espinas deals the most damage in the game, which is nonsense. Even Risen Elders don't do that much damage. What were the devs thinking here? A level ~125 Flaming Espinas left me poisoned with 5% HP, so I bet, a 135+ one will 1-shot anything and anyone.

I think the difference there is that they're Afflicted since you mentioned level 125, because the same is true of most high level afflicted monsters with shoulder checks, that is on top of what Remi said which is true..

I mean an explosion that big should be strong, no matter the monster that made it.

[Cig Bock]

Messaggio originale di Remi:

Regular Espinas can tie with a Kushala Daora, lifting the dragon made entirely out of metal off the ground, as well as tanking wind blasts like they're nothing.

Jho and other ED-level non elders aren't getting through Espinas either, he's even stronger than Nergigante lore wise as Nergigante can't beat any elder dragon in a 1 on 1 fight, but instead has to prey on old or almost dead elders to succeed. Espinas would obliterate Nergigante, Espi's physically superior and has status.

im sory maybe im not clear enough. i understand the fact that espinas is an ED level, i can see it clearly by how the dev animate it won a turf war against a kushala

what i dont understand is, why, why would the dev choose to made a base wyvern an ED level. like, fighting it wasnt that hard and leave no impression of terror unlike rajang and jho, its moveset is just charging and spitting fireball standard rathian stuff, they just buff the damage, its physics also features only spikes that supposedly soften during fight yet somehow it is able to won against a steel ED. on top of that, it just sleep there lmao, rajang keeps on hungry for more power while jho is constantly hungry

im not trying to offend anyone here, just wondering

[Zelph]

Messaggio originale di Cig Bock:

Messaggio originale di Remi:

Regular Espinas can tie with a Kushala Daora, lifting the dragon made entirely out of metal off the ground, as well as tanking wind blasts like they're nothing.

Jho and other ED-level non elders aren't getting through Espinas either, he's even stronger than Nergigante lore wise as Nergigante can't beat any elder dragon in a 1 on 1 fight, but instead has to prey on old or almost dead elders to succeed. Espinas would obliterate Nergigante, Espi's physically superior and has status.

im sory maybe im not clear enough. i understand the fact that espinas is an ED level, i can see it clearly by how the dev animate it won a turf war against a kushala

what i dont understand is, why, why would the dev choose to made a base wyvern an ED level. like, fighting it wasnt that hard and leave no impression of terror unlike rajang and jho, its moveset is just charging and spitting fireball standard rathian stuff, they just buff the damage, its physics also features only spikes that supposedly soften during fight yet somehow it is able to won against a steel ED. on top of that, it just sleep there lmao, rajang keeps on hungry for more power while jho is constantly hungry

im not trying to offend anyone here, just wondering

Kush is weak to poison. Espinas poisons with just about everything, on top of burn and para. Its very easy to see how it deals with kush, and why its not afraid of Elders.

[Remi]

Messaggio originale di Cig Bock:

im sory maybe im not clear enough. i understand the fact that espinas is an ED level, i can see it clearly by how the dev animate it won a turf war against a kushala

what i dont understand is, why, why would the dev choose to made a base wyvern an ED level. like, fighting it wasnt that hard and leave no impression of terror unlike rajang and jho, its moveset is just charging and spitting fireball standard rathian stuff, they just buff the damage, its physics also features only spikes that supposedly soften during fight yet somehow it is able to won against a steel ED. on top of that, it just sleep there lmao, rajang keeps on hungry for more power while jho is constantly hungry

im not trying to offend anyone here, just wondering

I don't know the devs' exact thoughts behind creating Espinas, he's from 2008 (a year before Jho's debut) and made by the Frontier dev team of that time. We can argue that perceptions of Jho and Rajang are subjective.

How I see it, Espinas at first is an unassuming monster sleeping most of the time. The player doesn't expect Espinas to be as devastating when enraged because of the stark contrast to its unenraged state, and it feels like enraging nature itself because Espinas is heavily tied to nature. At its time of release there were no Bloodbath Diabloses or monsters with similarly extreme shifts in behavior, so it probably left quite an impression on players fighting Espi back then.
Now in Sunbreak he wakes up and enrages drastically faster than in Frontier, diminishing the surprise factor.

Monster threat and power levels aren't really defined that clearly, Amatsu for example is on a lower threat level than Ibushi, but will probably get the Sunbreak treatment to be more powerful than even Gaismagorm.

[Cig Bock]

Messaggio originale di Remi:

I don't know the devs' exact thoughts behind creating Espinas, he's from 2008 (a year before Jho's debut) and made by the Frontier dev team of that time. We can argue that perceptions of Jho and Rajang are subjective.

How I see it, Espinas at first is an unassuming monster sleeping most of the time. The player doesn't expect Espinas to be as devastating when enraged because of the stark contrast to its unenraged state, and it feels like enraging nature itself because Espinas is heavily tied to nature. At its time of release there were no Bloodbath Diabloses or monsters with similarly extreme shifts in behavior, so it probably left quite an impression on players fighting Espi back then.
Now in Sunbreak he wakes up and enrages drastically faster than in Frontier, diminishing the surprise factor.

Monster threat and power levels aren't really defined that clearly, Amatsu for example is on a lower threat level than Ibushi, but will probably get the Sunbreak treatment to be more powerful than even Gaismagorm.

yeah i think there is a perception issue on my part also, once i see it as a rathian, its a rathian for me, with an extra 1 or 3 movesets, no matter how the dev set it to be i just cant see it. i still have my jailbroken vita sitting in my cabinet with its dead adapter, 4 or 5 ys ago i purchased it just because i wanna fight the zeroleus (idk the white rathalos with firework breath, its well designed so maybe not just me could accept it as an ED level), when i encounter espinas back then its just a plain key quest to advance the game, like somehow it lacks a grand backstory to support its power lore or to be hyped enough.

i also remember the feeling 1st time in the 1st mh game gravios 1 shot me with the laser and i was like, "yeah of course i dieded, its a magma laser", then when sunbreak comes out and i met this guy i was like, "oh its the rathian that hit like a diablos if not harder", for me personally, i can accept that much damage if it has either diablos like head, or gravios like body, not some "soften when enraged" shell, and i can accept to be 1 shoted by a michael bay level of explosion animation, not a pink rathian level of animation.

wings of ruin iirc shows a good representation of the power level, not exactly power level but like a specific/ primary element its prominent of, but as you said it (too) doesnt clearly show their power hierarchy

Messaggio originale di Zelph:

Kush is weak to poison. Espinas poisons with just about everything, on top of burn and para. Its very easy to see how it deals with kush, and why its not afraid of Elders.

yeah, not to mention its a steel ED like how esp could pierce through it, also what about teostra that wasnt weak against fire but lose against fire? does that mean flaming espinas fire is hotter/ more potent? why isnt it blue? or white? why is teostra titled emperor of flames? does title means nothing now, just like how king of the sky got powercrept lmao

im so sorry i have so many question that cant be answered with beacuse the dev said so

[Toxi]

Messaggio originale di Cig Bock:

Messaggio originale di Remi:

Regular Espinas can tie with a Kushala Daora, lifting the dragon made entirely out of metal off the ground, as well as tanking wind blasts like they're nothing.

Jho and other ED-level non elders aren't getting through Espinas either, he's even stronger than Nergigante lore wise as Nergigante can't beat any elder dragon in a 1 on 1 fight, but instead has to prey on old or almost dead elders to succeed. Espinas would obliterate Nergigante, Espi's physically superior and has status.

im sory maybe im not clear enough. i understand the fact that espinas is an ED level, i can see it clearly by how the dev animate it won a turf war against a kushala

what i dont understand is, why, why would the dev choose to made a base wyvern an ED level. like, fighting it wasnt that hard and leave no impression of terror unlike rajang and jho, its moveset is just charging and spitting fireball standard rathian stuff, they just buff the damage, its physics also features only spikes that supposedly soften during fight yet somehow it is able to won against a steel ED. on top of that, it just sleep there lmao, rajang keeps on hungry for more power while jho is constantly hungry

im not trying to offend anyone here, just wondering

I think that's because the conventions drawn there are more about what monsters are, instead of making comparisons of how strong monsters should be, so this is more of an issue of perception.. because Espinas is not the only monster that breaks this perceived convention, there's all kinds of monsters that do that, Mizutsune, Astalos, Glavenus, Garangolm, Lunagaron, Tigrex, Zinogre, Yian Garuga, Brachydios and also the Deviljho and Rajang you mentioned.. All of these break this convention of what people think the most dangerous types of monsters are.
There's also other ones I've yet to see, like Lagiacrus, Ukanlos, Akantor.

The way I see it, this is similar to real life and how herbivores and carnivores can differ, like how elephants, giraffes, or rhinos are far more dangerous than most if not all carnivore predators, if you were to compare them as adults 1 to 1. That's why they're hunted in packs, because one lion has no chance against a single giraffe.

I think a lot of this comes from the description of Elder Dragons being described as natural disasters and that they reside outside of the standard ecosystem. To me, the problem I see with taking this definition too literally is that the definition is a way of saying, "we don't know where they come from, but what we know is their power can destroy ecosystems", because at the end of the day, Elder Dragons are still of this world/setting in MH and by that logic, there should be Some monsters that are an exception to countering certain Elder Dragons.
The way I see it, ED destroy the fauna of that place and can also cause mass extinction both directly and indirectly through their power, but more often than not, the reason they're a greater threat to large monsters isn't a direct one, it's indirect, one that could cause their extinction by killing the fauna and the smaller creatures that could be their food source.

[Toxi]

Messaggio originale di Cig Bock:

Messaggio originale di Zelph:

Kush is weak to poison. Espinas poisons with just about everything, on top of burn and para. Its very easy to see how it deals with kush, and why its not afraid of Elders.

yeah, not to mention its a steel ED like how esp could pierce through it, also what about teostra that wasnt weak against fire but lose against fire? does that mean flaming espinas fire is hotter/ more potent? why isnt it blue? or white? why is teostra titled emperor of flames? does title means nothing now, just like how king of the sky got powercrept lmao

im so sorry i have so many question that cant be answered with beacuse the dev said so

I don't think that Espinas can kill a Teostra, being able to stand up to one doesn't mean it can kill it, what it means is that an Espinas is not afraid of EDs and all we know is that in one case it was even capable of killing one, I don't think that means it can kill every ED.

I think what this means is something akin to the outcome of turf wars, how much like Rajang, Deviljho, Bazelgeuse, or even Yian Garuga, Espinas is just too much of a pain to deal with and can square off with EDs, mainly because it is a Raging, Tanky, Venomous, Paralyzing, Fire breathing, Diablos.
Look, if Yian Garuga can be too much trouble for Deviljho, I think that an Espinas would be an even bigger pain in the ass to deal with.. ^^

[Cig Bock]

Messaggio originale di Toxi:

I don't think that Espinas can kill a Teostra, being able to stand up to one doesn't mean it can kill it, what it means is that an Espinas is not afraid of EDs and all we know is that in one case it was even capable of killing one, I don't think that means it can kill every ED.

I think what this means is something akin to the outcome of turf wars, how much like Rajang, Deviljho, Bazelgeuse, or even Yian Garuga, Espinas is just too much of a pain to deal with and can square off with EDs, mainly because it is a Raging, Tanky, Venomous, Paralyzing, Fire breathing, Diablos.
Look, if Yian Garuga can be too much trouble for Deviljho, I think that an Espinas would be an even bigger pain in the ass to deal with.. ^^

i can agree with most of this. that was a very good point to drop. thank you

i think my problem starts with how the dev decided to design and animate espinas along with its movesets. my brain automatically measures ingame effects and match them with the damage dealt. espinas design is simple, its body was not as concrete as a diablos with its exoskeleton, it moves slow so physically it should not deliver that much force. so when it charges with the same speed or slower with diablos, my brain automatically assume that i would get a lower damage than a diablos charge. but it doesnt, it sorta touch you, no force at all, and you carted as if espinas is using an attack multiplier trainer. also those charging fireball wasnt as flashy as silversols blue flame breath to have the capacity to 1 shot a 30 fire res, so again my brain would automatically assume that i wont get as much damage.

my point is. if its about to deliver that much damage, devs should have give it proper effects and animation to make it looks like it is capable of doing it. not some gentle moves but carry a big number of damage. its stupeed

[Cig Bock]

i apologize for keep dragging this already solved thread. lets just put this to rest and move on

[Toxi]

For what it's worth, I find those discussions interesting, but other than that, I wasn't intending to drag that on for too long either.