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Luxinae Sep 29, 2022 @ 3:31pm
Capcom's logic is really missing of logic
This isn't a thread to ask how to deal with Fire Espinas, i perfectly know what to do, i'm just pointing out everything that is illogical, badly made and confusing in MH games !

I just killed the new espinas and i annoyed me because the more i play monster hunter games, the more illogical they are to me.


I'm playing with my Lance and have been fine for the fight, not hard, not easy but i carted one time to his big blast because i was thinking "i put on my armor the skill "guard up" that is specifically made to survive very big attack + i have the little pet that allow you to survive very powerful attacks too". It didn't happen like i thought it would and got OS...

I don't understand the point of making very powerful attacks then making things to counter them and then making other things for monsters to counter my counter. Like i'm wasting slots of my stuff to put this skill that doesn't do his job. And you could think that the game would be too easy this way so they have to nerf it but i just have to sheathe my weapon and and jump on the ground, it's not hard, doesn't require any skill. If i don't try to block his blast, his blast is the attack that can kill me the least.

And this reminds me of the afflicted rakna kadaki. In master rank she has a double flamethrower that with "guard up" rank 1, one shot you, because it puts 50% hp but instead of taking this damage and being in safe mode for the next one, you are just tanking the next one too and dying... Not blocking with Lance is sometimes more optimal than blocking.


And another thing that isn't really linked to what i wrote above but i couldn't not think about it when i saw the new cinematic of espinas, am i the only MH fan that would expect to see teostra dying of anything else than a blast ? Especially from a monster that isn't even an elder dragon ?
Same goes for Rathalos, in french he is also called "king of sky". If in old monster hunter it was making a bit of sense, now i really think there are dozen of species that are flying and destroying rathalos pretty hard. I understand that they need to add powerful monsters to get more hype from the fanbase but isn't it killing what is left of storylines in monster hunter games ?

I might be missing something about all of this but from my point of view, it doesn't make sense at all.
Last edited by Luxinae; Sep 30, 2022 @ 11:10am
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Originally posted by Neptas:
The amount of people jumping to conclusions or blaming the OP for 300 different reasons (none of them being part of what the OP is talking about) is really impressive in that thread.

There's a Guard Up skill to block normally unblockable attacks, but there are attacks that are still unblockable, which defeat the purpose of Guard Up. I think this is absolutely a fair statement. It's not about the damage, since some people managed to survive the explosion, so Guard Up should have indeed worked. This is simply an unblockable, unblockable attack, which makes no sense.

It's funny how people immediately defend this with the worst possible arguments every single time.

"It's always been like that in MH". Sure. Exactly how tedious gathering was "always like that in MH and World ruined MH forever', until it turns out World made all the right choices on that point and made the serie more popular than ever by focusing on the actual fun part. See my point? Legacy is a false argument, it doesn't matter if it's old or new, what matters if it's actually good design and fun. And what isn't good design, is lying to players, and breaking your own rules, and it leaves players confused and frustrated.

"Just play something else" / 'Just dodge". I guess that's valid, but OP didn't ask for help or advice about that particular attack. He's just commentating on why Guard Up doesn't work against this one attack, while it works everywhere else. You're just deflecting the question here.

"It works exactly as intended", Huh? How? It only says it blocks "ordinarily unblockable attacks". Guess what? That Espinas attack is an ordinarily unblockable attack, so Guard Up should 100% work. If it dealt 20000 damage and it was impossible to survive it, then yeah, Guard Up would still be correct, it's just the attack that's too powerful. But that's not the case, it's possible to survive this attack, therefor Guard Up is not working as intended.

MH in general is full of small exceptions like this, and it's a part I really dislike. Like how Seregios can kill you when you're laying on the ground with its piercing scales, when you're (supposedly) invulnerable to all attacks, including supernovas and such. Yeah, like, now I know and it won't kill me again, but still, that's a rule that I learned passively through experience, a rule I learned to play around to stay safe during monster combos, and then suddenly, that one monster breaks the rule and kill me.

I'm fine with extreme monsters (like Fatalis, Safi-Jiva, etc.) having their own ultimate attack breaking through anything, since those monsters are clearly magnitudes above anything else, but I really don't see how a flaming Espinas is somehow at that same level. The lore itself just says it's similar to common Espinas in term of power, and can keep up with Teostra.

(Funnily enough, the same people will scream at you when you're the one breaking the rules with modding.)

I think the game would be slightly better without those exceptions. It's not about difficulty, it's about staying coherent with your own rules. Sorry, but that's Game Design 101.
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Showing 1-15 of 230 comments
GamingWithSilvertail Sep 29, 2022 @ 3:43pm 
Yes. Read the descirption of guard up to begin with.
#1
Luxinae Sep 29, 2022 @ 3:53pm 
Originally posted by GamingWithSilvertail:
Yes. Read the descirption of guard up to begin with.

Allows you to guard against ordinarily unblockable attacks.

Teostra big blast is unblockable until you get guard up. Why should it work different for the espinas ? If i get OS with guard up i guess i'm going to get OS without it so it is an unblockable attack am i right ?
#2
davinewrath Sep 29, 2022 @ 3:59pm 
Just bringing Guard Up rank 1 means you're still taking most of the attack damage when you block the attack. Higher ranks reduce the amount of damage that goes through. You need to bring more ranks for stuff like that Flaming Espinas attack as it's nasty.
#3
Seamus Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:00pm 
Read more closely.

You said you had rank 1 guard up.

That only blocks 30% of the damage from previously unblockable attacks.
#4
Luxinae Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:07pm 
Originally posted by Seamus:
Read more closely.

You said you had rank 1 guard up.

That only blocks 30% of the damage from previously unblockable attacks.

I was bringing it for rakna, it has been a long time i put more jewels into this skill but still, is it normal that putting a skill is killing me instead of helping me even if it's only one rank ?

Now i'm playing with only guard up 2 so i agree it's not the max but does it make sense to have rank 1 and 2 killing you, rank 3 going to make you tankier but going to lose a lot of health when sheathing your weapon and going down allows you to take no damage for free ?
#5
Seamus Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:10pm 
... are you asking how it makes sense that you take damage from blocking but not from dodging?
#6
Wiiaboo Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:11pm 
For starters, Espinas IS "old Monster Hunter": he's from gen 2 so he's nearly as old as Rathalos himself. As for his nuke being unblockable, it's probably THE single most telegraphed attack in the entire franchise, giving you more than enough time to get out of the way. Even if his nuke didn't one shot you through your guard you'd still probably take enough chip damage that evading it would be better anyways.
#7
Malidictus Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:20pm 
The Espinas nuke doesn't one-shot, but it does a crap-ton of chip damage. I managed to block it via Guard and Guard Up maxed on a Charge Blade block (probably on a charged shield). I'll try it again at some point on Lance. However, I've tanked the Valstrax HALO drop with it, so I don't see why I couldn't block that.
#8
Luxinae Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:21pm 
Originally posted by Seamus:
... are you asking how it makes sense that you take damage from blocking but not from dodging?

not exactly, i'm asking if i'm the only one feeling upset that wasting skills to upgrade my blocking and blocking lead me to being punished instead of rewarded. Half my weapon is about blocking and still dodging is 100% better.

Originally posted by Wiiaboo:
For starters, Espinas IS "old Monster Hunter": he's from gen 2 so he's nearly as old as Rathalos himself. As for his nuke being unblockable, it's probably THE single most telegraphed attack in the entire franchise, giving you more than enough time to get out of the way. Even if his nuke didn't one shot you through your guard you'd still probably take enough chip damage that evading it would be better anyways.

I now know but it makes me feel bad that you can't block it even with the skill made for it when even a beginner could dodge it.
#9
Luxinae Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:23pm 
Originally posted by Malidictus:
The Espinas nuke doesn't one-shot, but it does a crap-ton of chip damage. I managed to block it via Guard and Guard Up maxed on a Charge Blade block (probably on a charged shield). I'll try it again at some point on Lance. However, I've tanked the Valstrax HALO drop with it, so I don't see why I couldn't block that.

Finishing my fight and going to try with guard up 3, but i'm not sure that it is going to be worth to put 3 ranks of this skill if the best play is to jump down anyway
#10
Seamus Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:27pm 
Originally posted by Luxinae UwU:
not exactly, i'm asking if i'm the only one feeling upset that wasting skills to upgrade my blocking and blocking lead me to being punished instead of rewarded. Half my weapon is about blocking and still dodging is 100% better.
You really haven't played any previous MH games, have you?

Rise cut evade frames substantially. Evading takes more skill than hiding behind a shield.
#11
Luxinae Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:35pm 
Originally posted by Seamus:
Originally posted by Luxinae UwU:
not exactly, i'm asking if i'm the only one feeling upset that wasting skills to upgrade my blocking and blocking lead me to being punished instead of rewarded. Half my weapon is about blocking and still dodging is 100% better.
You really haven't played any previous MH games, have you?

Rise cut evade frames substantially. Evading takes more skill than hiding behind a shield.

Sorry for being this bad to say what i want to say, when i was saying "dodge" i was reffering to the superman dive and not to the few invincibility frames you have from dodging.
#12
Seamus Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:38pm 
Diving involves putting your weapon away. Takes longer thus it is a dps loss.
#13
Luxinae Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:44pm 
Originally posted by Seamus:
Diving involves putting your weapon away. Takes longer thus it is a dps loss.

putting defensive skills is also a a dps loss and i also can't dps while blocking (especially if i don't have much "Guard" skill on my build because of the knockback that many attacks have in master rank.
#14
Seamus Sep 29, 2022 @ 4:51pm 
So switch to a weapon without a shield.
#15
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Date Posted: Sep 29, 2022 @ 3:31pm
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