Getting mad over charm editing is nonsense

[Vextalyst]

I can somewhat understand (yet still disagree with) the armor and zenny complaints as they do give the other players a false impression of what you've achieved but getting mad over charms is just dumb.
Charms say NOTHING about a player's skill or experience it's just RNG plus it doesn't affect other players in any way since the game has sanity checks to keep illegal charms from being used.

Q: I grinded hundreds of charms to get the one I wanted shouldn't i be mad someone else just edited the ones they want in?
A: NO. You shouldn't care. It doesn't affect you in any way. Hell i'd be more inclined to get mad over someone getting the thing i grinded for on their first try by luck and even that sentiment is nonsense

Q: But...but aren't the people who do that just ruining the game for themselves?
A: First if they are it's their own damn prerogative. Second in most cases no they aren't.
I have over 450 hours in MHW on PS4 and in that time i never got even ONE damn drop of the handicraft tool. So in the PC version I edited in ALL of the decorations because ♥♥♥♥ that grind. And guess what? I have almost 800 hours in the PC version of MHW because it turns out if you make a good game, you don't need a stupid RNG grind to keep players coming back.

Admittedly I haven't done it in rise yet as armor skills are very friendly to My playstyle of hammer and insect glaive. But should i want to, I'll do so without hesitation as not only have I already done this grind but the grind itself is meaningless to me as far as gameplay goes

[Lince_SPAIN]

You bought the game with your money. There's a virtual box with every "legal" charm inside, so either you let the game pick a random one for you wasting literally months of gameplay in the process or you can actually open the box and pick what you want instead.

I'm all in for players respecting rules. But the past few days I've seen a lot of lobbies with people doing the save backup thingy (including failing the Rajang arena event) and non-stop playing rampage quests for the tickets... instead of actually playing and enjoying the wonderful game MH Rise is...

So now I feel conflicted.

[Dr. W]

Originally posted by ErzPaladin:

Originally posted by Dr. W:

Slippery Slope. That's an illogical fallacy. Strawman. Also an illogical fallacy.

I come from an era where the limiting factor is whether you can get a rare material, and the lower percentage rate being 2% per roll, with multiple rolls per quest, thus increasing this chance. It's rare for a week of dedicated play to not be enough to kit out most equipment needed, as long as you have the skill to consistently kill the target.

I've seen the terrible luck of killing 30+ kirins because they would not drop the item I needed. And I was fine with that.

Strawman? Illogical Fallacy? I don't see your point. Do you honestly believe you're the only person who played since MH1? Even I don't think so. And I played through MH1 and MHFU
solo. The entire Powderstone-Transporting the classical way, without bag-skill or such.

Originally posted by Dr. W:

But, the bell curve of percentage is rather narrow, for the time needed to get a desired equipment set. The bell curve for World Decorations and Non-World Talismans is so wide, in the percentage of one in thousands, to even more insignificant values, that of my peers who play and actually try to chase these end-game goals, the majority of them burn out on the entire game chasing decorations, repeating the same mission over and over, refusing to do the quests if they don't directly contribute to more rolls of the item they need. Granted, this is in regards to decorations, not talismans. And Rise does a better job allowing a more general scope of materials to be applicable. But I'm sure you can see, where the end game becomes monotonous. If this is you're idea of not awesome-boring, then you have an interesting sense of patience.

I'm not the one who's supporting what Capcom does. I'm against the hardcore RNG-based mechanics, either. But where does that justify cheating?

If you know how it was in MH World, how comes you even bought MH Rise in the first place? I didn't even buy MH World. And since I know how MH Rise ticks, I don't want it anymore, either.
When you're buying a game, then you've to live with all the bad things this game offers, either. Cause you simply buy the game as it is and not the way you could modify it.
Instead of this some minority wants a legitimacy for cheating and softening the general rules.

For the other games I must first look, but I've played MH3U for ca. 4000 hours. I never got my god charm and my first character even started on a cursed table. Which means... I even played more than 4000 hours in that game. But I've no issues living with it. Can't say that I wasn't mad at Capcom. But the consequence is that I watched pretty close on MH World and since I know what MH World does wrong, I chose to skip it entirely. Which is also why Capcom couldn't / can't count on me in case of MH Rise. The Demo itself was already horrible.
On Day 1 the demo didn't work and always crashed after the first 30-40 seconds. Then I posted my issue in 2 threads. 1 Day later I tested again and the demo run for ca. 90 mins. Then I posted my critical thoughts about the demo and soon after this, the demo stopped from running again. And since then it didn't run anymore.
And it's funny that there was never any respond to this - why the demo was never accessable. My thoughts on this you can guess.
If even the demo does such a thing on pre-release and doesn't give me the full access to the demo content, what shall I think about MH Rise in general? Considering what Capcom did with the series in the past? And cheating is just another brickstone in this whole situation.

Originally posted by Dr. W:

As for my experience, if you want my history, it's largely legitimate. I've modded one game, and it was World for the purpose of playing event missions outside of their designated times due to a busy work and university schedule during those years.

There is a reasonable limit to modding. No sane person thinks everyone should be spoonfed everything. You should know you're smarter than making that assumption. If I could, I'd mod Rise for one purpose. I just want to get the HSV values of my buddies so I can recruit them according to a specific look, because I happened to forget to save the template I made for my starting felyne, who spawned with a subpar set of abilities, and would require me to re-reference a photo to recreate the look, something that took 20 minutes the first time around. But surely, your folk think that alone would be a bannable offense, which is what keeps me from doing the simple task of editing my buddy to have the skills I can find in any other buddy I can recruit from the recruiter for fear of my account.

Actually I didn't want to know, who you are. But you stated it yourself - you modded MH World. So, you don't count as honorable hunter.

...that aside:

Capcom could simply solve this issue by abolishing the charm-system. I make the proposal again:

on

low rank - a set charm with 3 slots (undroppable)
high rank - one with 5 slots
g rank - one with 7 slots

for balancing out the equipment in general. It doesn't necessarily need to be exactly like this. But you see the tendency how it could be solved.
You could also abolish the entire charm system, but this would be a softer alternative.

Originally posted by Dr. W:

And for this same reason, I don't get mad if people mod their game. Some apply shaders, some modify their pets, some modify their talismans. I can do neither, but I certainly wish I could, and certainly will be okay with people doing such. As long as they are not making impossible items, something the game already sanity checks you from being able to do, they are balanced.

And lastly, if we want to throw in the strawman arguments. I have one.

If people can get mad at Monster Hunter modders for coming in with an ideal talismans, these same people should agree that in trading card games, buying individual cards should be banned, and all players should only be allowed to buy packs until they get the deck they want.

I don't even know what the Strawman-argument is. Care to explain? Witcher-anology?

Well, in case of trading card games you're really speaking with the wrong guy, cause I don't know much about it.
I always thought, either... the decks are pre-set (constructed) ones or it's a tournament with random-booster drafts. But I really don't know much about this.

I just don't see where this is compareable: you aren't playing Monster Hunter out of the same reason why you're playing trading card games in competitive mode.
If you want to compare it, then it's rather compareable with MMOs and especially MMORPGs and especially those are extremely grindy and in a lot of ways unfair.

Therefore I can give some examples:

Dofus:

Let's say you're killing monsters in tactic-rpg style in the Dofus-world and you get only 20-30% of your designated loot for your kill.

Why?

Cause a high level clan or guild reigns over this special aeria in which you're leveling. The only way is, that you force them to a duel.

What happens?

4-5 lvl 100-200 dudes in high-end armor get teleported to your spot and bash you into smithereens. That's how Dofus solves this.

Perfect World:

High-end clans permanently do territory wars and own territories. Kinda a similar thing without the bashing.
In addition: you do a lot of plant-grinding there for potion-crafting and such. And all people want the same stuff - on their flying carpets.

RF Online:

also known Rising Force Online was a MMORPG with 3 Races which fought about a mining-colony. That game is hardcore-PVP / RvR and it was full of cheaters. That was a game totally overrun by cheaters. It was well-known for all the Pinnoys who played from the Phillipines. Pretty much all day long they sold ingame-cash there for real one and you saw their bots pretty much everywhere. And they used turrents - which they placed into the air - to protect all those bots. At least, that was my experience of the game.

Which is actually sad, cause it was really a good game. Even when you got blasted and bashed from all ankles.

Shin Megami Tensei Imagine Online:

Also called Megaten was the MMORPG to the Shin Megami Tensei series. Years later I rebought Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner for the PS2. And actually, those games partly resemble another.
Just with the difference, that Devil Summoner is the way boring offline-singleplayer version of the multiplayer game. And cause of this it's so extremely limited in its game mechanics. You play the main char and 1 summon in a chess-oriented combatzone. That's all. Boring game.

You'd understand it, if you'd know Megaten. In Megaten you play your character and 1 summon, too, but in addition you can party with others and their summons and the combat system is real time (more or less).
It's not 100% realtime though, cause of those counter, block, rush, spin, dodge-skill-mechanics. In Megaten you could even dodge magic. But you had to prepare "dodge", so that you dodge the first incoming magic spell.

tldr:

Megaten was F2P and so P2W. Each dungeon was only accessable via some pass. Most dungeon passes could be bought via ingame currency. But you had to farm it.
In the beginning it was easy, cause there were 4 or even 6 (sub-)servers and people could switch between those and so go farming.
At some point Aeriagames choose to reduce everything onto 1 server and then people fought about the perfect looting- / grinding spots. In the end you could only see far away people as wandering polygons. Only when they were pretty close, the character models were shown in that end phase.


... I could continue this list, but I guess, you get the idea.

-------------------

sure, MMORPGs and some other games are much more competitive. But the people here are argumenting that cheating is automatically ok, as long as it's not that hardcore as it is in some other games. Their arguments are simply to soften the general rules. You soften this rule and at some point... months, years later... the same guys are coming again and want damage hacks and other modding stuff legitimated for Monster Hunter.
They argument, that it's ok to bypass the charm-farming - only this single rule. But in the end, people can't decide upon the rule set.

What is correct is:

If you allow cheaters to cheat charms, then you can also allow the rest to cheat on everything else. Cause... what gives some playergroup the right to decide which rule exactly can be broken? Each group maybe wants to bypass different rules.
So if you start with this, then there's no end to it.

In addition:

I highly doubt, that cheaters really want to party with other cheaters - as they state it in this or the previous thread. Maybe some minor community would actually do so (and I would even doubt this), but the majority is a group of notoric egoists and narcists - who just wants to show off, with the minimum effort. Nothing what was stated here so far convinces me from anything beside this. If you don't want to believe me, there is this and the other thread you can dig in.

I purchased Rise because as a whole, I like more aspects of the game than I dislike. I am willing to play them legitimately, and have played them for the most part so aside from the want to play that quest I missed, so I could just have my greatsword many of the people who had more time than I did have, a quest where the limiting factor wasn't my skill level, it was just that I had a particularly busy week. But if I didn't play Monster Hunter just because it had an aspect I didn't like, I'd have never played Monster Hunter. Every Monster Hunter needed work somewhere, was missing something, or had a source of frustration. But that's the reality of it. They aren't going to be perfect. And as I said earlier, blind love in the series' flaws is a toxic form of fandom. Monster Hunter needs improvement, and in many ways, it has improved, and will continue to improve. When people cheat, of course there will be the outliers who don't care about the game. People who walk in with top level gear and cart to a low-rank monster. And those people, I don't respect. But as a whole, cheating is done for a reason. And I've seen a lot of people who had reasons to cheat that felt reasonable to me. They didn't increase their power, all I saw them do was install a hud that says who did what percent of damage, enabled the purchase of decorations for exorbant prices sometimes in the hundreds of thousands of Zenny, installed shaders to make the game look better. Many of them were long-time players who'd been through the G3 star challenge quests throughout Unite, 4U, and G4 star in GU. There are reasonable limitations, and responsible people will not go far. I would not get mad at them, especially as we get older, and time becomes more precious. A job, family obligations, and other friend obligations keeps me from playing Monster Hunter as much as I used to in my High school and University days. and I only get to play once to thrice a week, if at all.

As for how TCG's work, in most cases it's neither. Booster Drafts are a gimmick that typically happen on new pack releases, but most tournaments are less people actually buying packs, and more tailoring the exact cards they want, not giving a cent to any card that isn't optimum. Pre-built decks are typically starter decks, and won't function without heavy modification in common play unless you are fighting other pre-builds. Many players you'll see will research a deck, and just directly buy the cards they want to make the deck, skipping the fluff of any card outside of the list.

I brought in the card thing as a slight aside, but I wanted to bring it in because I felt I wanted to elaborate on it. In the sense that. In TCG's, there are two ways to play. Low cost, but high in the long run going through the the "RNG" of pack opening, or paying more to get what you want. The way people can pay extra up front for exactly what they want is probably a way Capcom should try making Talismans, at least in one game to see if it sticks.

As for your suggestion to fix the talismans, I like it. It seems somewhat reasonable.

My suggestion for Talismans is to use a point system, with an expensive zenny and monster material cost, to tailor-make even a god charm. I have high doubts any reasonable hunter would have complaints, though my brother in conversation made a good point, and turned me around to the concept that Capcom might really want to keep the lingering players, and players like us who were content just hunting without always chasing a higher equipment goal might be in a minority once we've cleared most of what we want.

To use an example from another game: Pathfinder 1st Edition, an animal can often be purchased, and trained to have up to 3 or 6 tricks, dependent on its intelliegence score. Or in the same system, a weapon can be enchanted for exorbant amounts of gold pieces, the first being 2000 gp, the second being 8,000, the third being 18,000, and so on.

To how I'd likely prototype a talisman system in Monster Hunter, it would probably look like this, say a Low rank charm has... 10 points, a high rank charm has... 20 points, and a master/G rank charm has... 30 points as arbitrary numbers. And say skill X is worth 2 points per level, and skill Y is worth 8 points per level. Adding on individual traits, such as a new skill, up to, say, 2 or 3, or a new gem slot, might each cost an appropriate sum of zenny, probably even as far as 10,000 per slot, or even totally to 100,000 for particularly potent abilities, or simply using rare monster drops, like jewels, which, while rare, are not quite as rare as the the whole gem, and might have a more pleasant "feel" because players will feel they are making steady progress each time they get the rare drop.

[Dr. W]

Originally posted by ✠Scorch Sunfire✠:

Like people giving themselves talismans in MHR, whenever I notice someone use console commands in a Bethesda game, I go out of way to get my butt on a moral crusade against said person. They're purposely cheating in their game, giving themselves overpowered weapons and spells, ruining the experience for everyone else who play in an objective and fair manner.

:special:

Presuming you are being sarcastic, but actually not quite sure, I'd still like to vent a particular frustration from another game that your post brings to mind.

I lost an hour and 20 minutes of playtime to glitching into a box I tried to jump onto in Outer Worlds to just look around, when I could have just briefly no-clipped out of that. Open World games are prone to bugs. And I shouldn't have to save at every turn and jump for fear of a game-ending bug. There were no enemies that made me fear for my life, and there were no map hazards that could have killed me. All there was was a box that decided to trap me for having the gall for attempting to stand on the wrong part of it it to take in the scenery. I'd appreciate at the very least having access to noclip. The amount of times I've clipped into a wall in my PS3 save in Oblivion made me appreciate playing Skyrim on the PC, as enough times had I glitched into the environment happened or that random glitchy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ killed me that I'd have had to stop playing a long time ago.

[The Rizzler]

Originally posted by kl250d:

Originally posted by Dorek:

sure is heated debate over some pointless stuff as usual around here, but is attack 7, guard up 3, 2-2-2 a good charm then?

The game apparently can detect impossible charms and remove them so probably not

and people have found ways around that check

[kl250d]

Originally posted by cup_of_nickles:

Originally posted by kl250d:

The game apparently can detect impossible charms and remove them so probably not

and people have found ways around that check

Oh well i can live with that