Wirefall conundrum and it's impact towards difficulty

[Acen___mh]

Hello. So i have concern regarding wirefall mechanic and it's affect towards monster difficulty. How to make a monster 'difficult' and 'challenging' and 'fun' without tuning their damage to 11.

For example, apex monster have couple of moves that could one shot you. (Sure fatalis have it too, but alatreon doesn't - unless your naked but whatever), But 1 shot moves does not made it fun or difficult, its artificial. I personally love fatalis and alatreon fights alot in world. They hit hard but not that hard and their combo and openings are fun to learn. Well this all going back to wirefall mechanics discussion.

In the end i just hope for a more challenging and harder fights without too many 1 shot moves.

But in the very 2 end i guess it doesn't really matter, if you kill the monster 1 too many times, i can comfortably beat fatalis in blue flame after hundred of hours of fighting it. Speedrunning are dealing with rng more than anything. Since we're talking about AI here, and if you play with them enough times you'll get good no matter what. some people learn faster some are slower.

I just wanna have fun and challenged in those short moment when everything is new and exciting.

Hope capcom really think hard about this.. *I won't make the game harder by nerfing myself too - It's hard to design a game and balance everthing.. Hope sunbreak can fixed this.

I'm hoping for a lot LUL. I'm rambling but food for thought. Thanks.

[Nfected]

Having played with my friend, I have spotted a few Instakill moves:

In general: Rajangs grab will clap you if you dont spam buttons to get off your feet to wirebug. My gunner friend gets carted on the initial slam, as Gunlance I survive the hit, but barely. But if I dont get off the ground I will die

Specifically HBG: Ibushis wind attack that yeets you straight into the air. Since they cannot wirebug away, the tail slams down and OHKOs you while you're helpless midair

Wirebugs letting you reposition and sheathe your weapon when knocked into the air or the ground in most cases makes your punishing mistakes easier to iron out. Youre not safe because any attack can then still hit you if youre doing the wirebug dash, but as a get out of jail free card in 9/10 cases, yeah it makes some encounters easier

I definitely don't want to see the "damage to 11" iceborne did with Alatreon or Raging Brachydios, but I think if Capcom is aware of how the wirebug is being used, they can adjust its use with Sunbreak like they did with Weakness exploit

[Remi]

Outside of Emergency and Advanced quests no monster can oneshot you even at 150 HP, not to mention you can get 100 more HP and eat for moxie or have 50 elemental resist with Dragonheart. You can wirefall every single true combo setup including Ibushi wind and grabs, those attacks are balanced around wirefall and that's not a bad thing as it punishes overly aggressive wireskill usage.
However, I'm certain wirefall won't make every monster in Sunbreak rely on oneshots due to players being able to escape after every hit, but rather punish players who spam wirefall without paying attention to follow-up attacks. G-rank monsters are faster, have more attacks at their disposal and are able to execute longer combo strings, making wirefall at least require some thought hopefully.

I agree that Alatreon and Fatalis in IB were both better fights than their old versions and actually somewhat challenging, Fatalis is the only monster outside of Extremoth and ALeshen I didn't clear on my first blind attempt (well nobody beat Fatalis solo first try as it's impossible without having any knowledge of the fight), however he sadly turned into a boring AI manipulation fest hoping he'd do the cone attack.
Clutch Claw also ruined the flow of both of those fights more than Wirebugs and wirefall ruin the flow of Rise's fights imo. The only thing close to having to tenderize is when the monster gets put into the wyvern ride state and you can't do anything about it.

[Plumber]

Wirefall actually isn’t the reason this game is so much easier except for gunners maybe; the culprit is healing which is borderline unpunishable. If you want to, you can carry a whole stack of max potions around, wirefall, pop one, and instantly throw yourself into more attacks. The floor for success is massively lowered, even compared to the last two games which were accused of similar things, because of how it compounds with healing being out of control.

In and of itself, Wirefall either speeds up how fast you can get back to a monster when you (un)intentionally trade hits or allows you to run far away if a monster’s not doing a string of attacks. In the former case you’re still eating hits and it will catch up to you, and in the latter case you’re running away and not doing any damage. Both spend a bug, which may or may not be a big deal depending on how much your weapon relies on them. It’s another option at best and a deceptively efficient habit at worst. Generally speaking, you’re better off winning trades, not getting unnecessarily hit, and retaining your bugs - even with incredibly strong potions/maxes.

Try abstaining from any use of Wirefall outside of pins like Rajang’s throw and you’ll see what I mean. You might have to be a little smarter about when you wake up from a knockdown, but that’s about it.

[Katitoff]

Wirefall is not a problem.

Monsters being outdated and lacking punishing moves for World and Rise mobile gameplay is.

But we will see only more of it, because series hit mainstream and hitting mainstream means doing everything possible to appeal to casuals.

[Dagný]

I've been saying this from day 1: Wirefall is the worst addition in the franchise's history, Rise is the least satisfying MH game mostly because of this feature.

I don't know about you but about 90% of my deaths in every single monster hunter game happened when I was sheathing to heal or about to drink a potion/max potion after sheathing, you know, the animations you have to deal with when you get hit. Knowing when it's safe to heal was a huge part of the combat, now it's mostly gone. Most people playing this game have a real problem to understand this and how it affects the combat.

Devs know this quite well, hence the one-shots in the apex emergency quest, because there's no other solution.

[Juliane_L]

I'm in the minority but i honestly feel like RIse is harder than World in most cases scenarios.
Sure, wirefall is strong, but I'd say it's still not nearly as game breaking than Rocksteady Mantle+ Health Augment, or Temporal Mantle.

I also think the Rise team did a pretty good job at making monsters keep up with the hunter's mobillity, especially compared to World. IMO, Valstrax, Apexes or even Magnamalo are good exemple of this.

Although i'm guessing part of the difficulty for me comes from using ground DBs and never using restocking.

[MrLuckless]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Juliane_L:

I'm in the minority but i honestly feel like RIse is harder than World in most cases scenarios.
Sure, wirefall is strong, but I'd say it's still not nearly as game breaking than Rocksteady Mantle+ Health Augment, or Temporal Mantle.

I also think the Rise team did a pretty good job at making monsters keep up with the hunter's mobillity, especially compared to World. IMO, Valstrax, Apexes or even Magnamalo are good exemple of this.

Although i'm guessing part of the difficulty for me comes from using ground DBs and never using restocking.

Some weapons got hyper armor similar to Rocksteady Mantle built in to some of their attacks now so I guess Capcom liked the idea. I do to, because Swaxes ZSD can now be done while the monster is still attacking at the expense of health and a possible cart. It's pretty great because it plays into the ultra-aggressive playstyle Swaxe wants to play as and combos wonderfully into Soaring Wyvern Blade. The spirit of Rocksteady lives on.

[Kurobon]

Wirebugs are a lot of things: skill cooldown, a SUPER bar mechanic, a navigation method, and also an oki/defensive/wakeup mechanic. From a game development point of view, they are well designed.

When used as an oki mechanic: Some monster moves are designed to punish bad wirebug "wakeups" or escapes; and there's also punishment for not having wirebugs when they connect certain moves. But this feels more like an infrequent oki mechanic, and not a fully fleshed out gameplay mechanic applicable to all fights and monsters. Wirebugs are almost always full especially when a third bug is found in most battlegrounds. I guess designing every single monster move to adhere to this was not practicable and would change too much the core "clunky" fights of MH,

Sunbreak difficulty could greatly be improved within this oki system, as many fighting games are balanced around, which is something Capcom is capable of doing.

[Dagný]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Juliane_L:

I'm in the minority but i honestly feel like RIse is harder than World in most cases scenarios.
Sure, wirefall is strong, but I'd say it's still not nearly as game breaking than Rocksteady Mantle+ Health Augment, or Temporal Mantle.

I also think the Rise team did a pretty good job at making monsters keep up with the hunter's mobillity, especially compared to World. IMO, Valstrax, Apexes or even Magnamalo are good exemple of this.

Rise has potential to be harder, but not with how recovery and wirefall work now, that's the issue.
Temporal/rocksteady have a huge cooldown and it's kind of a choice to use it or use tool specialist and break the game while wirefall is fully implemented in the gameplay from the get go.

[kuaikukia]

Nope. I feel 1 shot kill is far better than instant death for failing DPS check like Alatreon MH world. That gimmick just put you artificial more challenging but no where near fun at all.

Even I take wirefall any day rather than easy mode mantles

[DoEFotGS]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Juliane_L:

I also think the Rise team did a pretty good job at making monsters keep up with the hunter's mobillity, especially compared to World. IMO, Valstrax, Apexes or even Magnamalo are good exemple of this.

Most of the time, while in battle, you use wirebugs to perform specific moves and to wirefall. You don't have such 'awesome mobility' that all talked about.

Outside of the combat... well, yes, it's works, but not because is needed. Location designed around wirebugs and palamutes, but it's forced use. No one monster climb on the mount to chase you. Never. Thay just can't move into 50% of location space. And secret notes + stupid spiritbirds is only reasons to make wiredashes and palamutes useful and mandatory. If you remove that two things - reason to keep wirebugs and palamutes just dissapear.

To be specific: in World you have same level of basic mobility, but without forced use of specific mechanic. All location was designed around hunter and his speed of movement, not around palamute that move faster. And a lot of place in World have wedge beetles that works exactly as wiredashes in traversal terms.

I don't undertsand why so much players love wirebugs, because this is worst and more forced to use than clutch claw in Iceborne.

[Plumber]

you’d be surprised at how many moves you can high-profile by jumping them, and stuff like mizu/goss beams are practically begging you to, not to mention the variety of moves you can dash out of and then air dodge back to the monster with. It’s true this doesn’t matter while your weapon is drawn, but you can do more movement while sheathed than in any other monhun, up to and including dunking barrel bombs for fun

cheesing with high ground is no different than zoning in the old games or skittering away into cubbyholes in World
secret notes are completely optional
I don’t like spiribirds myself, but spiribirds are unnecessary outside of Bow/DB stamina management as most quests are balanced around you ignoring them or having a prism handed to you for free; only matters for event apexes
Wedge beetles are more comparable to great wirebugs
You don’t need to know anything about wiredashing to get around the map quickly with or without a palamute; just go to the nearest camp, use a great wirebug, and maybe do a couple of wiredashes and you’re immediately where you need to be

even if you set aside tenderizing and the gimmicks’ respective attacks, wiredash is free movement whereas clutch claw is clumsily restricted movement; the control and versatility is why people are more open to it

[Nfected]

I didnt mind Clutch claw too much in Iceborne because wallbangs were funny, but it becoming mandatory to create weak areas to hit and that some weapons needed to do it twice made it feel almost mandatory to get any hunt done before your team starts carting, especially with monsters like Angry Brachy or Rage Monke

Wirebugs feel different, but offer more than just niche uses

[Remi]

What's bad about Wirebugs is not necessarily wirefall offering easy escapes after getting hit but rather the fact that weapons are balanced around using wireskills to perform.
Imagine if LS, GS, DB, Hammer, Horn, CB, Lance, Switch Axe and IG didn't have wirebug skills available and actually required player skill and positioning to perform well instead of spamming 100-300 mv moves on cooldown.
That's the main issue with Rise gameplay, the skill floor and skill ceiling for most weapons are way too close to each other. A specific weapon's veteran player who used said weapon over multiple games had a not too insignificant edge over players just "casually" playing the weapon in every game except Rise. But now anyone can pick up a weapon and perform not too worse than the best of the best because Rise doesn't reward player skill as much as previous games.

Once a weapon boils down to using x move on cooldown, optimal gameplay isn't something that requires player skill, just monster AI aligning so you can spam Helmbreaker or Impact Crater on cooldown. Sunbreak seriously needs to shift damage from wirebug skills to regular attacks, Hammer without Impact Crater does laughably miniscule damage sadly, and it's not the only weapon that suffers from this.

[overmage]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Der Auslander:

Having played with my friend, I have spotted a few Instakill moves:

In general: Rajangs grab will clap you if you dont spam buttons to get off your feet to wirebug. My gunner friend gets carted on the initial slam, as Gunlance I survive the hit, but barely. But if I dont get off the ground I will die

Wait, what? It does about half my hp. Have you upgraded your armour?