A rant about R-Type Final 2

[Eocene]

I'm about to say some things that might upset some fans of this game.

I'm definitely one myself, in fact, I've loved R-Type ever since dropping coins into it at the ice skating rink in the late '80s.

I'm very happy this game was made, and also happy (mostly) with how they made it.

My biggest gripe is that it clings to archaic arcade game conventions, something I don't have a lot of patience for anymore in this day and age. I bet most of you will argue that this is what R-Type is supposed to be - 3 lives, one hit kills, linear progression through a fixed set of premade stages, continues, and basic scoring - and I'll happily argue back that this is seriously outdated game design. This formula works in an environment where you effectively buy a few minutes of playing time on a public entertainment vending machine, but arcades are all but dead.

R-Type could really stand to be re-thought from the ground up, and reworked into a format that caters to today's gaming habits and expectations.

Like, say, how about restructuring it as a turn-based strategy game where battles are fought as semi-randomly generated shoot 'em up stages. Missions could vary from protecting the flagship to intercepting large Bydo battleships. Add a strategical element. Hell, make it a roguelite where starting a new game means signing up as a rookie fresh out of R-series training, with meta progression, permanent upgrades and why not even - eek - permadeath.

R-Type Final 2 would lend itself fantastically to this. It's got huge amounts of content (especially with all the DLC added), the lore is there too - all it needs is some vision and courage at the good people at Granzella.

[King Fossil]

This isn't really a rant, it's just you saying you have a game idea and you wish someone would make it. But everyone has ideas, so unless you make the game yourself it's not going to happen.

[phoenix_54d]

Also R-Type HAS been made as two turn-based strategy games already.
And they were excellent.

[Eocene]

Originally posted by King Fossil:

This isn't really a rant, it's just you saying you have a game idea and you wish someone would make it. But everyone has ideas, so unless you make the game yourself it's not going to happen.

It's a rant in the sense that R-Type Final 2 is frustrating because of it's unfulfilled potential.

It's got so much cool stuff in it, and yet it struggles to keep me invested, because it refuses to evolve beyond what's essentially learning the scripted stages and unlocking all the stuff.

I've played the new stages, and unlocked the new ships. Now there's nothing to do but wait until the next DLC lands.

[RAWRmonger]

Originally posted by Eocene:

a turn-based strategy game where battles are fought as semi-randomly generated shoot 'em up stages.

"Generated" stages would be a cardinal sin for R-Type's excellent level design. It won't work because it would either be too simplistic/hard, or they'd have to use templates. (Flashbacks to Sigma Star Saga, look it up, or don't)

I don't disagree with the sentiment of the series lending themselves to new audiences, but I think the problem with this game is that mainly it isn't Delta 2, and lacks the atmosphere of Final, and at the very least, it lacks context. I say this despite thinking it's the second best R-Type.

[Eocene]

Originally posted by RAWRmonger:

Originally posted by Eocene:

a turn-based strategy game where battles are fought as semi-randomly generated shoot 'em up stages.

"Generated" stages would be a cardinal sin for R-Type's excellent level design. It won't work because it would either be too simplistic/hard, or they'd have to use templates. (Flashbacks to Sigma Star Saga, look it up, or don't)

Just because it hasn't been done well before doesn't mean it can't be done well at all. I'm guessing you just don't have as much imagination as I do?

Originally posted by RAWRmonger:

I don't disagree with the sentiment of the series lending themselves to new audiences, but I think the problem with this game is that mainly it isn't Delta 2, and lacks the atmosphere of Final, and at the very least, it lacks context. I say this despite thinking it's the second best R-Type.

If there's anything lacking context, it's this reply. Just because you read it somewhere else before and thought it sounded cool means it's relevant here.

[Raster]

This apple I bought isn't a banana. Wasted potential.

[John Stellarum]

I think you should check out R-Type Tactics. Its a PSP game. Its sequel was never released in English, but I think there is a fan-translation somewhere.

[Eocene]

I know about R-Type Tactics, I have it on PSP.

It's not about making R-Type Final 2 into a strategy game per se - it's about having it do anything more interesting than just a straightforward arcade mode.

[Raster]

Like what Dariusburst has with the CS mode? Something like that?

[RAWRmonger]

Originally posted by Eocene:

Originally posted by RAWRmonger:

"Generated" stages would be a cardinal sin for R-Type's excellent level design. It won't work because it would either be too simplistic/hard, or they'd have to use templates. (Flashbacks to Sigma Star Saga, look it up, or don't)

Just because it hasn't been done well before doesn't mean it can't be done well at all. I'm guessing you just don't have as much imagination as I do?

Originally posted by RAWRmonger:

I don't disagree with the sentiment of the series lending themselves to new audiences, but I think the problem with this game is that mainly it isn't Delta 2, and lacks the atmosphere of Final, and at the very least, it lacks context. I say this despite thinking it's the second best R-Type.

If there's anything lacking context, it's this reply. Just because you read it somewhere else before and thought it sounded cool means it's relevant here.

I'm saying RTF2's operation (story) lacks context. For all I know, the missions feel like random events. This is one of the problems of the game that contribute to its lack of atmosphere. The other is that the game isn't as frantic, grim, and cinematic as Delta.

If my problem is imagination, then please fill me in, but be sure to detail it at least.

First, it's an horrible idea to mix genres like that (IMO). Either I'm playing an SRPG, or a shmup, doing both is a massive paradigm shift, it is off putting.

Again see Sigma Star Saga, which mixes shmup with a less contrasting action-adventure.
This game does a lot of things people have wished for in shmups, such as mixing it with RPG elements, bad.
Of course, it's only a particular example, but it's a cautionary tale for why you shouldn't just "imagine" putting one and another genre together, while also saying "generated" levels would work.

Second, you can't match human mission design with something generated from an algorithm. I'm not saying this is impossible, but in general, it's very unlikely to come out decent at all.
Generated crap tends to look derivative very, very fast.

[Dalek zen]

Originally posted by RAWRmonger:

Originally posted by Eocene:

Just because it hasn't been done well before doesn't mean it can't be done well at all. I'm guessing you just don't have as much imagination as I do?



If there's anything lacking context, it's this reply. Just because you read it somewhere else before and thought it sounded cool means it's relevant here.

I'm saying RTF2's operation (story) lacks context. For all I know, the missions feel like random events. This is one of the problems of the game that contribute to its lack of atmosphere. The other is that the game isn't as frantic, grim, and cinematic as Delta.

If my problem is imagination, then please fill me in, but be sure to detail it at least.

First, it's an horrible idea to mix genres like that (IMO). Either I'm playing an SRPG, or a shmup, doing both is a massive paradigm shift, it is off putting.

Again see Sigma Star Saga, which mixes shmup with a less contrasting action-adventure.
This game does a lot of things people have wished for in shmups, such as mixing it with RPG elements, bad.
Of course, it's only a particular example, but it's a cautionary tale for why you shouldn't just "imagine" putting one and another genre together, while also saying "generated" levels would work.

Second, you can't match human mission design with something generated from an algorithm. I'm not saying this is impossible, but in general, it's very unlikely to come out decent at all.
Generated crap tends to look derivative very, very fast.

I wish Final 2 would have some story too. Guess they're trying to hark back to the really old days of the first games.

At least the Bydo Empire is gone for good now, so the EAF achieved something.

[Eocene]

Originally posted by Raster:

Like what Dariusburst has with the CS mode? Something like that?

Yes, precisely.

That mode could work so well here. Incidentally I also proposed such a mode several months ago to Granzella. Just imagine combining that with the amount of ships available in Final 2.

Another good example would be the SNES version of U.N. Squadron, and although a little hampered, certainly had the right idea.

[John Stellarum]

Y'know, there was this old Flash game that I played that was basically a side-scrolling shooter mixed with RPG elements and used visual novel style to tell the story. Starwish: RPG Shooter. It was a really good game. I think the R-Type series could stand to have something like that included. And bring back some other elements from previous games, like how Delta was a series of incidents caused by the unwittingly infected R-9 from the original game, or the little bits of text that showed up at the beginning (and sometimes end) of stages in FINAL.

Now, I don't think that the ship should have a health bar or anything- unless they make that a story-related option that unlocks one or more unique endings (maybe the pilot hacked their ship and turned off the self-destruct so they can keep fighting the Bydo even after getting hit). But maybe introduce upgrade-able weapon stats. Maybe restrict it to Force and Bit lasers and the ship's built-in Vulcan, though. Maybe some missile systems. Except for charge time, leave Wave Cannons and Delta Weapons alone. Perhaps also include upgrades for pilot outfits so we can farm resources easier.

[Eocene]

Certainly good ideas, but the core of this game's problem is this: there is nothing to do except unlock the ships, and play the stages. The irony is that, despite having so much content, it has very little.

[RAWRmonger]

Originally posted by Eocene:

Certainly good ideas, but the core of this game's problem is this: there is nothing to do except unlock the ships, and play the stages. The irony is that, despite having so much content, it has very little.

I completely disagree this, the gameplay is fun by itself, and the combinations of (stages, ships) are huge increase to that fun. R-Type Final 1 and 2 are the most extreme cases of shmup with this amount of (handcrafted) content that I know of.

While there are some crappy and derivative ships, there are still quite a lot of different forces, and for the most part, they have satisfying lasers.
Even with such diversity, I personally gravitate towards reusing favorite ships, because they're just just fun to replay with, anyway.

The stages' topology, and enemy placement force different situations on the player, and the different tactics, plus weaponry, the player uses will produce different outcomes.

Was, then, R-Type Delta, or III, not worth their value since they only contained 3~4 different setups and even less stages? How about the average 16-bit shmup that only had a ship and nothing else but harder loops.

I'm not saying this because I like arguing with people online, but I legit think RTF2 is a decent, fun shmup, and hope you can view it in a different perspective.