Feedback

[Ganymede]

SPOILERS (I'm not going to use the spoiler tag since I'll end up blotting out more than half of this post)

Finally managed to work my way through this game. Had to put it away for a few weeks to reset my brain a few times, but I wanted to get through it by solving as much of it myself as possible (I think I only looked up the solution for one puzzle)

Anyway, I figured I'd give my thoughts now that I've finally finished it.

So, first off - WOW!

And I really mean that. This game has a "WOW" factor that the other games (even Rethink 2) didn't have. The sheer scale of some of the rooms, multiple levels overlooking several puzzles at once, lasers crossing over hub areas and over other puzzles... and movement! So much movement, even at very large scales. The only thing it's missing is the outdoor parts from Rethink 2 and the cool monorail from Rethink Evolved 4 and it would pretty much have everything I could ever ask for in this kind of puzzle game.

I love how many of the puzzles had "twists" built into them, like a secret wall opening to reveal more cubes, or the entire floor sinking to let a laser through. These twists were also nicely spaced, meaning it was always a pleasant surprise when one of them happened, and they never became predictable.

I noticed quite a bit of refinement in the mechanics. I liked the subtractor as a nice middle ground between the static "prism" and the more hectic "programmable cube". It felt much more intuitive. I also liked the new twist that both lasers can be controlled separately on splitters. It seemed like a natural progression, much like the grid introduced in Rethink 3. I also loved how you brought in the rotating walls from Rethink 2, the rotating hallways from Rethink Evolved 2, AND the moving platforms from Rethink Evolved 4. It really helped show off how much cool stuff has been in this series.

So, as always, I have a whole host of small things I think would be nice in the future. Most of these fall under the "quality of life" category.

We'll start with the biggest one: The tutorial.

Right now, the tutorial is one giant wall of text that pops up when you enter a puzzle. As a player, my reaction to seeing all this text pop up at once is about the same as seeing a boss fight appear. It feels like work to have to read through the small print in the corner of the screen.
It would be nice to have a more interactive experience, where there are HUD elements hovering over various puzzle elements pointing at them and telling you what to do. The "wall of text" is fine as a reference in case someone forgets, but it can be put way in the back like a manual.

The other features that would be nice are relatively small. I'll list them out here:

1) A "run" button. I like the walking speed, but the ability to run is so common in 3D puzzle games that it almost feels weird not to have it.
2) A "zoom" button. The rooms in this game were so big that I wished I could zoom in on some of the distant parts to see what was going on.
3) An "undo" button. I often got to a good place in a puzzle before screwing it up and forgetting where I was at. Be nice to go back a few steps with the push of a button.
4) A "release the beads" button. Right now, the "beads" are released every time a cube moves in the puzzle. I'd like a bit more control over when they're released.
5) A level-select / fast-travel panel, like the one in the monorail of Rethink Evolved 4. This would especially be nice as the games become more open-world (as seems to be the direction things are heading)
6) Vistas! Particularly at the end of puzzles with an "airlock". I want a really good view of all the cool moving parts while I'm waiting for the doors to open. (Some puzzles did this, but too many locked me in a room where I couldn't see anything).

Those are the big things. Outside of that is just a couple "polish" ideas that don't really need to be there, but would really make things shine in future games.

1) Global sound effects that you can hear regardless of where you are in the level. This would be great for doors opening and closing.
2) Animations. I realize these can take time to make, but it would be really cool if, say, inserting one of the "keys" you collect set off an animation. It feels a bit anti-climactic to finally collect one and have it just appear with a dull "click" when you place it. Also, a few moving parts that show the puzzle "form itself", like a simplified version of what Portal 2 did. (Much like the wall of text, sometimes it takes a while to get over the "shock" of seeing a puzzle for the first time. Animations could help ease the player into it by revealing it in digestible parts)

That's about it. Can't wait to see where things go from here!

[¥aeko]

Hello,

The sheer scale of some of the rooms, multiple levels overlooking several puzzles at once, lasers crossing over hub areas and over other puzzles... and movement! So much movement

Yes, "more moving stuff" definitely was a big focus this time, since I do want to go away from the "static nature" of the older games, especially now, where UE5 removed some of the most painful limitations I had to deal with. UE5 also is the reason I can now (conveniently) build much larger maps. And this is just the beginning - I will keep on improving this in the future, definitely. (For reference: RTE5s first map already is ~3x the size of the first map of RT4, and contains almost 20 puzzles - as of now. (Ingame performance is still good, but my hardware is going up in flames in editor >.<... so I am currently limited by my own hardware, to some degree.))

The only thing it's missing is the outdoor parts from Rethink 2

Yeah, I have had some issues with UE5s new features and Trees specifically, this is on my to-do-list for RT5, but for now I wanted to play it "safe". (UE5 already was a bit of a "gamble" and did in fact cause higher refunds than usual for the game, which I expected.)

and the cool monorail from Rethink Evolved 4 and it would pretty much have everything I could ever ask for in this kind of puzzle game.

Rest assured, these will come back in the future, the "transition to UE5" just ate so much time, that I went with teleporters only. The teleporters initially only were meant to be used inside an area etc. as shortcuts to remove unnecessary walking, and for hidden areas (which also didnt make it into this game, because UE5-trouble.)

Regarding "hidden stuff in future games:
I plan to have unique gameplay-ideas/features/gimmicks in hidden areas, so that it is something interesting and not just "more of the same, but hidden" - RTE5 already does that currently. That said, I will not "advertise" those features, since I want them to be a surprise - just like some of RT4s features where "hidden" until the very end.

I noticed quite a bit of refinement in the mechanics. I liked the subtractor as a nice middle ground between the static "prism" and the more hectic "programmable cube". It felt much more intuitive.

Yeah, I tried to make things more "straightforward", without "dumbing it down" - looks like that worked out, at least for this cube :P

I also loved how you brought in the rotating walls from Rethink 2, the rotating hallways from Rethink Evolved 2, AND the moving platforms from Rethink Evolved 4. It really helped show off how much cool stuff has been in this series.

I never really wanted to leave stuff behind, and with this game I finally could bring back the things people liked from older games. (Yes, these things will stay, since RT4 is the base for future games, it should only get better.)

So, as always, I have a whole host of small things I think would be nice in the future. Most of these fall under the "quality of life" category.

QoL in generall is something I want to improve in the future, I am not satisfied with (for example) how the tutorials are etc. - but, the game already was delayed way more than enough, so I went with "the basics" instead of delaying it for the 20th time xD

1) A "run" button. I like the walking speed, but the ability to run is so common in 3D puzzle games that it almost feels weird not to have it.

Will see, because I removed this to free up buttons on gamepads/controllers for other things that are more important. (same goes for jumping btw.)

I will have to invest some time into this, and think about how to best do this in the future, but I am definitely aware of it for RT5.

2) A "zoom" button. The rooms in this game were so big that I wished I could zoom in on some of the distant parts to see what was going on.

Yeah, I think I just forgot about it at some point - RTE4 had a zoom button, so its really not something I have never done before :P

3) An "undo" button. I often got to a good place in a puzzle before screwing it up and forgetting where I was at. Be nice to go back a few steps with the push of a button.

This is actually an interesting Idea, will think about it. Will put it on the list for RT5.

4) A "release the beads" button. Right now, the "beads" are released every time a cube moves in the puzzle. I'd like a bit more control over when they're released.

I will see how to handle these in the future, they were an experiment, and I will change them based on Feedback in the future - for now, I just wanted them to be "not annoying to deal with, in terms of controls". I will probably come up with some kind of remote-controlled gate etc. like the [1]/[2] stuff etc. for RT5.
These are rather "complex and unique" features, which can make it more complex to find good solutions that still "feel" right when playing etc.

5) A level-select / fast-travel panel, like the one in the monorail of Rethink Evolved 4. This would especially be nice as the games become more open-world (as seems to be the direction things are heading)

I will (in general) improve the map-layouts in the future, so that things are less confusing, paths are a lot shorter etc. and for large distances, I will in the future simply use the teleporters, since they are not needed anymore for level-changes in general. (since the monorails will have a comeback) - I will see with what I can come up to further improve things beyond what I already have noticed/learned and am going to improve anyway.

6) Vistas! Particularly at the end of puzzles with an "airlock". I want a really good view of all the cool moving parts while I'm waiting for the doors to open. (Some puzzles did this, but too many locked me in a room where I couldn't see anything).

Yes, all of this falls under "map improvementes" I already have on my list. I also already have some other improvements regarding this in mind. (More specifically: I will, especially for puzzles that need time to "switch states", implement shortcuts so that you dont have to switch states twice... once for going in, once for leaving.

Many of the puzzles in this game were still built with UE4-limitations in mind, because UE5 really was a mess for the first year - this didnt really allow me to waste too much performance etc. for stuff like this, hence why many puzzles are somewhat "stuffed into some corner".)

Those are the big things. Outside of that is just a couple "polish" ideas that don't really need to be there, but would really make things shine in future games.

"big" :P - If these are the things that bother you the most, I didnt mess up the game too badly - I call this a success, for now.

1) Global sound effects that you can hear regardless of where you are in the level. This would be great for doors opening and closing.

Will have to see how to improve this, since puzzles deactivate if you are not in range etc, causing doors to close themselves, yada yada - but all of the "making things more clear etc" is on my to do list for the future. I will eventually figure something out, after all, the games have improved a lot from the 2017 RT1, the initial game.

2) Animations. I realize these can take time to make, but it would be really cool if, say, inserting one of the "keys" you collect set off an animation. It feels a bit anti-climactic to finally collect one and have it just appear with a dull "click" when you place it.

Yes, I am aware of it, this also came down to time/money-constraints with the game.

But here is the good thing, now that things work, I can spend (in RT5) time to improve these things for all future games - so, yes, its on my to-do-list.

Also, a few moving parts that show the puzzle "form itself", like a simplified version of what Portal 2 did. (Much like the wall of text, sometimes it takes a while to get over the "shock" of seeing a puzzle for the first time. Animations could help ease the player into it by revealing it in digestible parts)

I will see what I can do regarding this, because its in general something I wanted to have as a feature.

===================

On a personal and ending note:

I want to say thanks for taking the time to write this much Feedback, I will try to have it implemented in RT5, and in fact, some things area already adressed in RTE5 (which I am currently working on - no surprise I guess :P)

While a lot of the above may sound like an excuse, it really isnt meant as one. I am still just a single person, having to be a "jack of all trades", dealing with every aspect of the game. Especially with the transition to UE5, some things simply didnt get the attention anymore that I would have liked to give to those things. (RT2 had more fancy tutorials than RT4 for example... but I will come up with something better.)

I wasnt stupid when I built RT4, so that I can just "flip a few buttons" and RTE will turn back into basic RT, which means that both games share the same technology, features, improvements etc. which will free up a lot of time for "small stuff and QoL-features" in the future.

I can not promise that every single bit of Feedback immediately will get adressed, since sometimes I need time to come up with something "good". (I still have features that I am "brewing" for years now, because I have not figured out how to implement them in a good way.) Especially when it comes to the way the levels are built etc. I too need to adapt to changes, get used to them, so this is somewhat a progressive effort that doesnt come in one big chunk and is immediately "perfect".

[Ganymede]

Just remembered one more thing.

I like how infinite loops are now being detected. Only problem is now I can't see them. It would be nice if they were still rendered, maybe as a dashed / dotted line (like in Talos Principle when the laser runs into an obstacle).

Also, get rid of the wall of text. I know it's trying to explain the situation, but it comes across like a giant error report, and feels like the game is crashing or something. If you really want an explanation, you could have a small popup in the corner of the screen the first time it happens, with the lines "learn about loops". The user can hit a button to learn about them in the same format as the tutorial.

[¥aeko]

Originally posted by Ganymede:

I like how infinite loops are now being detected. Only problem is now I can't see them. It would be nice if they were still rendered, maybe as a dashed / dotted line (like in Talos Principle when the laser runs into an obstacle).

That, probably wont be there anytime soon, since the game doesnt know enough about the infinite loop you made to deal with this. (its at the end of current to-do list, needs time to figure out something better.)

but I may try to at least highlight the cube that caused the "error", or so, need to think about it. (its a bit messy, since the cube causing the infinite loop, usually a white one, or a reflector) doesnt need to be the one "ringing the bell" in the logic.

The important part (to me) with this was: that it works xD

Also, get rid of the wall of text. I know it's trying to explain the situation, but it comes across like a giant error report, and feels like the game is crashing or something.

Technically, the game is crashing at that point, I just prevented the runaway-train happening. (there actually also is quite a noticable performance impact, depending on the size of the loop.)

I will see what I do about this. Ia gree that the current message is a bit "error-like", guess I will find something less "harsh" - if there is enough time left over.

EDIT: At best, I would not have a message at all - maybe I will just let the cube start blinking red (the corners) and have it display an infinite loop "note" on its top - its not like infinite loops happen every 10 seconds or so. The game also doesnt "trip" immediately just because a cube is rotated for a moment, it takes a while until it actually gets "annoyed" about it.