Range or damage upgrade?

[Vvv]

So I tried both, and I get the impression that range upgrade along with extra tower damage at end is slightly better than going damage upgrade with extra tower damage at end.

From my experience, you need at least 16 arbalests in towers to kill the giant fast enough where he does not get more than 1 hit if any at all.

Now the reason it seems better is simply that they start firing way earlier at the giant and they take out the magic shooting freaks from very far away.

Now damage upgrade is good as well and works because they still snipe the giant very quickly but are somewhat limited by the range if you have lets say 3 or more wall rows. Also upgraded ballista towers will outrange them to take out the magic shooting freaks.

For anyone wondering, fire arrows just don't do enough, they're only somewhat useful if you decide to build archers only.

Now I was wandering if anyone had similar conclusions or different upgrade paths.

[Catbert7]

They should both work, but Damage seems to be objectively better, at least in Wave defense. Arbalests without the Damage buffs (but with the Tower Damage buff) will do 112.5 damage, 23.6 DpS. Arbalests with Damage buffs will do 187.5 damage, 35.4 DpS. Out of Towers, it's 75, 14.2 and 125, 23.6; a 66% difference.

But what really matters is Kills per Second (KpS), which accounts for overkill. Against Rank 3/4 enemies, with Tower bonus, Range Arbs will take 3 shots to kill Lobbers and Wraiths, vs 2 shots for Damage Arbs. They SHOULD both kill Boomers in 2 shots, except there's something buggy going on with that right now. Against Giants, it's 61 shots to 37. Obviously, they both 1-shot everything weaker. So, Damage Arbs kill Wraiths and Lobbers 50% faster, and Giants 67% faster, and everything else they are equal.

In the earlier Waves, the limiting factor is how fast you can kill the Giants. Range matters to the KpS of Giants, since they are infrequent. Against Giants, Damage has a slight advantage (67% vs 45%). In the later Waves, limiting factor is the weaker units. You'll need so many Arbs to handle them that Giants will be handled by default. Against the riff raff, it's a constant stream, so Range doesn't affect KpS. As such, Damage obviously has the advantage. They'll die a bit further out with Range but you'll need more Arbs to handle the flow rate than with Damage.

Outside of Towers, the KpS advantage is even more in favor of Damage, though Range has advantages in clearing that aren't so relevant in Waves, since it's not a constant stream of enemies. Often the biggest concern is killing just 1 Wraith before it reaches you, or staying out of a Lobber's range. So I'd say which is best in clearing is a matter of circumstance and tactics.

[Vvv]

Hmmm interesting, I do see your point. Maybe the middle ground is to take 1st dmg upgrade for 25% increase and than go with range...you would only lose 10% range and vision that way.

I think why I found range upgrade better is that I often had 3 lineup of walls in front of defensive buildings...and with dmg upgrade I could lose up to 2 lineups while with the range upgrade I barely lose some walls because arbs would kill even the range magic freaks before they shoot at all.

Now, with the range upgrade, you literally force your arbs to be elite killers because they snipe them at greater range meaning more non-stop elite sniping and less rif raf sniping. That leaves the rifraf job to tier 2 ballista towers and catapults.

Also I think the difference in the giant sniping is correct pure numbers wise for the dmg upgrade but not as obvious context wise. If I remember correctly, will have to check it up eventually to confirm, range upgrade arbs will shoot the giant twice before he gets to them unlike the dmg upgrade arbs.

[Catbert7]

First, a correction: Obviously the only statement to which I applied the word obviously was incorrect xD I forgot that Axemen, and weaker, the Arbs only do 25 base damage, since the recent update. That means that, while Damage Arbs (with the Tower bonus) still one-shot Axemen, Javelineers, and Crawlers, Range Arbs actually do not. They barely 1-shot Crawlers but take 2 shots to kill Axe and Javelin, which is a pretty big deal, as there are a LOT of those in later Waves. Range Arbs also take 2 shots to kill Crawlers outside of Towers; important for map-clearing.

I should also mention that all my numbers are based on Vizargo units, and assume Emboldened. If they are not, things get even worse for the Range build.

Publicado originalmente por Vvv:

Maybe the middle ground is to take 1st dmg upgrade for 25% increase and than go with range...you would only lose 10% range and vision that way.

That 1st upgrade is definitely the worst for Range. If you want to mix and match, that's the first to cut. The +25% will let you 1-shot Crawlers without a Tower, which will help with map-clearing. It will let you 1-shot Javelineers IN towers. And it will kill Giants in 15% fewer hits. It would help. Though, my points above still stand. Better just taking all the Damage ups, as far as Wave defense is concerned.

Publicado originalmente por Vvv:

I think why I found range upgrade better is that I often had 3 lineup of walls in front of defensive buildings

Ahhhh, now it's making sense. I long ago abandoned Grand Ballistae (and Catapults, sadly), when I found out Flamers are many times more cost-effective (followed by Sentinels; Grand Ballistae being the mostly costly of anything). I don't even use Walls anymore, just a few Flamers in front of the Arb Towers. Yeah, if you're using Ballista Towers I can see why you might want some more Range, since you pretty much have to take damage with them.

Publicado originalmente por Vvv:

range upgrade arbs will shoot the giant twice before he gets to them unlike the dmg upgrade arbs.

I can see why that would be important with your setup (though, if you have that many Wall layers it'll likely muddy the fact). Wave 3+ I always have enough Arbs that the Giant dies before reaching my Flamers, so it's not a concern. Wave 2 I build my Unit Towers to the side, with Soldiers dispatching the Crawlers in the middle, and retreat them to let the Giant munch on some diversion Walls when he arrives. And I usually don't have a significant number of Arbs by Wave 2 anyway.

[Prince Farming]

Does the range buff apply to units when they are inside towers or is their range defaults to the range that towers provide?

[YOPG]

Publicado originalmente por Prince Charming:

Does the range buff apply to units when they are inside towers or is their range defaults to the range that towers provide?

Yes, the range buff applies to all units in towers.