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Not to mention the change to Ivy was all in the flight duration of her ultimate, which doesn't really change anything? The people in charge of balancing can't do their jobs well.
Alright, lets see.
This is a huge misconception about why these items exist. You're supposed to plan for these in advance in order to stifle an enemy's powerspike at the right time and take the lead off of the back of it.
Plated Armour is an item you buy when you're ahead but worried about a comeback, or have damage to spare already, because it pre-emptively counters whatever weapon items the enemy buys to kill you. See, now the damage items are on the flip as kind of counter items and are not good?
It's about power timings. If you get Knockdown for Seven after he gets unstoppable (which is more expensive than Knockdown), that's not double edge counters, that's forgetting to get Knockdown before Seven gets Unstoppable and eating your ticket for it. Remember, if you Knockdown Seven a second into his ult, he DIES!!
Mirage does not buy ricochet!
Ok, I got it one time to help kill rejuv troops and defend base, I was totally lost in that lobby.
Anyway, the best counter to guns is cover, Rusted Barrel is literally a T1 item, and a bunch of other items of all categories reduce fire rate. Guns are still strong, of course, just sayin'.
If the game goes on long enough, like, 60 minutes long, then yes, fire rate is whack, but that's a good thing because I want the match to end at some point, right?
They are telegraphed.
If Geist is low HP, and you get close, she is going to use her ultimate on you. It's as telegraphed as it gets without flashing lights constantly in your UI. Counterspell does in fact work on Geist ult, and it works on Mo Ult too, but it is predictive, so it's not easy.
Mo's ulti is good. It's allowed to be as good as it is because Mo doesn't have very good range options. He has Sand Blast, which is possibly the best non-ultimate ability in the game, but his damage output beyond 15 meters is pathetic.
Also, Mo is a funny example, because if you rescue beam the ally he's hugging, you pull him along, too, so he ends up in the middle of your team. Or at least I remember that happening a bunch of times. Pretty good counter if you ask me.
Mo ult also ends if stunned or interrupted because it's a channel ability.
Both of these have counters. Heck, Geist's needs her to be low HP, so if she is stunned before she can use it, she DIES!!
So I kind of agree, some characters still take over like they have done will minimal effort. But, you just argued that counter items are good, when earlier you complained that they were a trap.
Vindicta buying remover to counter Knockdown is her making a clever decision. Nominally. If her enemies don't have any good ways of pulling her out of the sky innately, they're going to get knockdown, so she may need to get remover. If they don't get it, or don't need knockdown, she can forego remover for something else that will allow her to live.
Generally, you go for one key defensive item to combat the most likely kill ability your enemies have, and only get more if you need more. Going full damage is disrespectful as ♥♥♥♥.
There's also the scenario where Vindicta knows the enemy team will use Knockdown the moment they see her in the air and so she holds on to flight until she can make proper pick-offs, where knockdown use would simply be too late. She doesn't even need something like remover in that scenario, not because counter items are bad, but because her team is better than the enemy team at fighting.
Oh, and I imaging Vindicta would get E shift, not remover, because E shift has uses remover doesn't, and Vindicta is a bit hard to inflict with debuffs what with being a mile away and up in the sky.
Walkers have been nerf/buffed back and fourth, so my guess is they don't want them to melt to deathballs, but do want them to be dove and taken down reliably.
If Lash of all heroes is able to kill a Walker with no troops nearby, that Walker is dead already due to tardy defenders.
It's a bit frustrating how you dismiss counter items as a trap, then complain about features that those very items would erase from your problem pool altogether, then the characters who buy those counter items are unassailable demigods, too. It's like your complaints can be turned on and off when it's convenient for you.
What's worse is, you aren't entirely wrong on surface reading, some characters are whack right now, but it reads like you want to only buy damage items and other people on the other team are ruining what you want to be a single player experience.
I could be reading into it too much?
Dedicated slots for counters is a fun idea. I don't want to think about it right now, because I'll probably find flaws with it, but I like the sound of it honestly.
Counter items are already good, though.
Guardians are fine, Walkers could be a bit tougher I suppose. Rather than just nerfing top dogs, buff the underpowered ones.
1. You cant plan for everything. Say you buy plated cus the enemy got wraith and haze. Then it turns out the real issue is lash curb stomping you. At that point its already too late to "plan ahead" so what do you do? Waste 6.4k to get spellbreaker and sacrifice something that actually synergizes with your kit? Sell plated armour but then wraith and haze become problems instead? Unstoppable and knockdown are broad stroke counters. They're good because they counter practically everyone and most importantly, counter the big hitters like Seven. On the other hand, a lot of other new counters are very narrow. What is plated going to do against a spirit bomber? What is spellbreak going to do against a microgun haze? If you're only supposed to get plated when you're ahead, then what is the point of it? A counter should should give you a chance you didn't have before, like being able to survive an ambush ult from haze or avoiding the perfect lash ult. I'm not saying they don't have their use cases, i'm saying that the limited slots mean you have to sacrifice something to have them and more often then not, they aren't enough on their own.
2. Personal anecdote, I see several mirage rush ricochet and snowball off the farming aid and fire rate. I buy rusted barrel, sometimes even upgrade to disarming hex, that saves me 4s against their strongest gun man, then I get killed by lash because I dont have spirit counters or farmed by the haze because I dont do enough damage to kill her in 4s. Cover means nothing to Haze, Wraith or Infernus who can just close the distance and remove it from the equation. They aren't trying to snipe you 99% of the time because that's stupid. None of that even takes into account the rest of their team who could also be on top of you in seconds if you have to take cover indoors to avoid a vindicta
3. That's not telegraphing, that prediction. You can assume giest is going to Ult you because she's low when you get close, but the odds of you timing that counterspell to the moment she clicks that button and reaps your entire healthbar is less than 50%, especially when failing that skillcheck means you sit there like an idiot for a whole second. Sometimes you don't even know when these fools are going to strike. Giest hides around corners, Mo gets phantom strike. You can try to run away from either of them but all they have to do is catch up to you for a fraction of a second and its over. Other than counterspell they have no viable counter options except kill them before they try, which is easier said than done when both Giest and Mo are exceptional heroes right now.
4. Counter items are good but you have to sacrifice synergies to get them. My issue here is that there are more problem children than ever so one counter item isnt enough. But then you run into the issue that having two counter items interrupts your build. Sometimes even 2 isnt enough. I never said they were bad. I said they were double edged shields. They buy you time that you cant use because you don't do enough damage or leave you wanting because its either bullets or spirit when both are killing you all the same. Before the shop rework, you could technically have equal offence and defence, but canning 2 slots and tightening all the item effects means now you have to choose between one or the other. This is on top of overtuned kits being the norm for this game at this point.
5. Towers suck, you wont change my mind on this. I believe a full team attacking the tower with creep wave, should kill the tower if the defenders cant repel them. I don't believe that anyone should be able to solo a tower at full health EVER. I also don't believe that heroes should be allowed free reign underneath enemy towers. Doing so should be a calculated risk not a given. Getting backdoored isn't a sign of "tardy defenders". We were all there, pushing back the main offensive. Everyone else had retreated but that lash was sitting on the side building, in full view. The walker wasnt even shooting anything, it just accepted its death. in that scenario, you would think the walker would retaliate against the lone attacker pestering it, but it didn't even flinch. Because we already had to fight back the main enemy force, I couldn't solo the lash who can just be there for free. Even if we lost tower, the lash should have been dead due to "poor positioning" but instead he goes unpunished and we lose a walker because valve is too scared to make towers dangerous to face alone.
6. My problem with counter items is that while they're good at stopping one or two heroes from dominating you, they don't do ANYTHING ELSE. Stop the haze, get killed by talon. Stop the lash, get killed by wraith. Its not necessarily even the fault of the items themselves, they're good but heroes are so imbalanced that they dont really matter in the grand scheme of things. You will get swept whether you buy them or not. Your only hope is that your Viper is smurfing harder than their Calico. Unfortunately for me, I want to have fun playing this game, which means I cant afford to bring a blanket to this bloody sauna lest I sweat myself to death. Vindicta getting debuff remover is nothing new, vindicta having rapid fire pyro snares is. This is frustrating to play against, but remover completely counters her only counters as it always has. I am basically condemned to Solo Q so I cant always rely on my team, even still, its better to look at what I can do personally to better my chances instead of putting all the blame on my team when things don't go well. To that end, I more or less have to play "single player" and try to at least carry my weight. Does that stop the sweepers, no. Do counter items help, sometimes, but not enough to warrant the slot if my team isnt killing them either.
Yes I want dedicated slots back. Counter items are good, that's why they need dedicated slots so they don't take away your key offensive items. Towers dont need more health, they need more damage and to actually focus heroes who dive too close, walkers and guardians alike. Right now the underdog is Bebop...do you really want that to be buffed? Nerfs have been long needed, especially early game ones. Reduce the number of basekit stuns/knockups and lower the damage of low cooldown/charged spells with added effects, because for some reason CC and damage need to be spammable.
why should people be getting muted if they arent acting like c u nts?
Spellbreak is something you get late game, usually after you have your damage items, and it's an item you get to prevent yourself from losing the game. It can literally be the difference between winning and losing, and to some extent you do have to make a plan for it, in the event that the game lasts longer than expected.
Generally, if anything is nuking you 100 to 0 before late game, that's more of a decision making error, and Spellbreaker isn't a good fix for those, but at a point late to very late in a match where taking massive nukes is essentially guaranteed, Spellbreaker may be a genuinely good choice.
The Mirage bit was a joke, my bad, I'm sure other clueless Mirage players like me have picked up Ricochet.
Cover to Haze is hell, dude, have you even played Haze outside of a bot match?! Haze's enemy can pole dance around a pillar and take no damage from Bullet Dance while entirely in it's range. Late-late game? Sure, she gets Ricochet and melts, but thank God because games have to end at some point.
Bullet Dance is also channelled, so if you have a stun, I guess you just get a kill, right?
Also, the counter to Bullet Dance besides cover is Extra Stamina, which is a T1 item.
I'm not saying Bullet Dance is strictly bad, although I think it might be, it's more that there are dozens of options to pick in order to counter it trivially but all of them require spacial awareness.
Haze also has no grenade, so no frag'n'clear from her.
Infernus can't climb during Flame Dash, so you should try climbing away if you can. He has naturally low speed, all of his movement early on is in that one ability. Really, he doesn't so much chase people down as set the stage of the fight on fire and pincer attack enemies, but I get your point.
As for Vindicta, that's why you plan to get knockdown. Also, indoors in Deadlock are mazes with juke closets in them, and you can pelt down caltrops as enemies try and chase you down. Or hide.
It's a complicated game. And if you get Disarm Hex and then get blow up by Lash, gee maybe it was a bad fight to take? Or maybe you chose the wrong counter item? Not saying that as a joke, it's a complicated game.
The telegraph is that they picked Geist, so fair enough, we're not all psychic, I guess.
Have you played Geist? It's a hard concept to explain, but most of the times she swaps healthbars, even if she heals nearly to full, it's a bad steal. If one of her enemies is OK with losing their HP, they can bait it out, and without her Ult, Geist loses a lot of threat, she basically can't fight.
All the 1v4 clips you've seen are her entering a fight partway through with enemy ults and CC all used up with her own ult still in the back pocket, while the enemy team all try to fight her anyway. That's not saying Geist is freewin, that's a combination of a Geist player playing Geist really well and an enemy team getting greedy or desperate.
Fair enough, you did say they were double edged.
But they shouldn't be interrupting synergies or eating into your own damage. You don't need 8 weapon items. Heck, you don't even need 6, really.
It kind of explains why you think some characters are unbeatable when you're choosing more damage numbers over a tool that will actually win you the fight.
Yeah, so Walkers have Backdoor Protection, which means that a solo character is very unlikely to kill them unless they are a character particularly specialised for objective damage, like Wraith or even Haze.
So I'll end up repeating myself here; if Lash, who's gun blows, was able to take down that Walker 'alone' via backdoor, that Walker must have been at <3% HP. Hence, "Tardy Defence".
Or lack of pressure on other parts of the map, one of those two things. Offence is the best defence.
Honestly, it just sounds like the enemy team played out a sneaky plan well against yours.
Being able to counter everyone with an item is a nightmarish thought. The idea is you're supposed to position and stage yourself ready to deal with your problem and avoid the other problem that you haven't itemized for as best you can at the same time, and to some degree trust your teammates. It's hard, of course, that's what makes it a deep game.
But, as for teammates, I think you are right about the "single player" thing, putting too much trust/responsibility on teammates in soloq doesn't get too far. I've blamed teammates for things that were my fault on review.
Guardian damage, I think they do the right amount of damage as is, while Walkers I suppose could do more damage.
Towers not attacking players properly is something I'm sure they said they fixed but I admit it doesn't feel like it sometimes.
I do secretly want beepop buffed, but his stamina nerf was on point, so not a reversion of that, but maybe something like letting him control his height in Hyper Beam mode or whatever.
I'm even ok with Haze buffs.
I can see a future where Stickybombs get replaced by a new ability or modified heavily in some way, but who knows.
You cant honestly say that you've never died to something and felt it was completely out of your control. Sometimes your decisions are fine, playing safe, being aware of your surroundings, not pushing out alone. Then you just get dove anyways, stunned, cursed and obliterated without even a hope of fighting back. The enemy can make good decisions too and sometimes especially when you're on the backfoot, no amount of good decisions will prevent your opponent from just farming your jungle clean and getting a 20k lead on 3/0 walkers. Sometimes the luck of the draw means you dont have any innate counter abilities on your roster or the enemy completely counters you. Not every match is a winner but it should at least feel like a comeback is possible. I'm not saying spellbreaker should also affect bullet damage, but its way to expensive to be bought reactively if you are getting canned from both sides. Honestly it should be an upgrade from spirit resist. Like plated should be an upgrade from bullet resist. It would lower the bar of entry enough to prevent a snowball. Or having a dedicated slot so that you dont need 2 to survive a Holiday on caffeinated steroids.
According to your previous statement...that's a decision making error. If the haze knows what she's doing she'll catch someone in the open which as some point you will have to be. Or she'll be in your jungle when you don't expect her. You cant blame the player and then blame the environment. On top of that, she has a basekit sleep and invis, which means you cant be proactive in dealing with her if she's hiding. If your argument is stun her, well she's already on top of you so unless you have an instant cast (Abrams, Ivy, Viper, arguably Wraith) You might already be dead before it matters. Haze isnt going to ult infront of an armed Lash or Viper cus that's stupid. My point is she will still get the absurd amount of damage in before you can really stop her and god help you if you dont have that option because knockdown isnt going to do crap in time. And the same problem arises that something has to give to have these items. If haze makes the choice to get Unstoppable in place of something else, then that counter becomes useless. You die, and you have to deal with it. Sometimes that just feels unfair. You get blitzed down by a gun maniac who you cant really run away from when they always intend on getting close. You cant always be glued to your team or pray that they'll come to save you when you die in 3s anyways. The increase to overall fire rate is just making the strong even stronger and does nothing to help the weak who by basekit don't have good guns. That's a balance issue which is why I want to see change to reduce it.
Have you played against a Giest? She can spend the whole game nuking your backline. Early game her bombs are insane with just a few minor items. Leech is insane and a debuff for some reason, even having a support functionality. Her knives are spammable as hell and make her shots hurt even more. The limit is her health and low mobility. But in comes her reset button ultimate. Giest out of place in an open field, gets jumped by 3 people. The second she gets low, she just clicks a button and suddenly all that damage you worked so hard to put on her is given to someone else for the sin of being too close. She's back to full which can sometimes be enough to buy her 5 more seconds for her team to assist. In that time she might even get a free kill on her assailant again...for the sin of being 6m away from her for any length of time. Giest is oppressive as all hell even without her ultimate, but you cant avoid being ulted unless you KILL HER. Which means you cant unless she wastes it somehow because her Ult is literally a second chance. Its the most annoying thing that rewards her for taking damage, spamming abilities and being out of position. You didn't even mention my issues with Mo stun which btw also heals him like Giest ult. I just dont like these super powerful abilities having no opposition other than distance or being on the winning team already. If either of them had to aim, had a 1s wind up or didnt force you out of the fight then I wouldnt have any issue with either hero. Until that day I am of the opinion that they are unfun to play against.
I don't buy purely damaging items either. I buy cooldown, range increases, sometimes trophy if farming is rough. Unstoppable on my big ults. I dont say we just all should buy damage, but the thing with these items is that they're all supporting our offense in addition to aiding our defence. Leap is a wonderful tool for positioning or an escape tool in some cases. Juggernaut makes enemies shoot slower and makes you faster overall. Healing tempo is amazing for those firerate jockies as well as improving healing. I look at plated or spellbreaker or even witchmail and I just wish they were better. They're so out of place in a build. They have one good effect, stop one insanity from killing you. But nothing more than that. You dont hit harder, faster, broader or for longer. Resist was neutered as a whole and both of these items are standalone 6.4k purchases. They just dont fit. Maybe my problem should be more directed towards these items in particular because as you've said before, they would solve a lot of my problems with firerate hell or burst damage meta. But I dont take them because they're an expensive side dish when my focus is on the bigger picture. I want them to be good so they can solve my problems, but they're not and thusly they dont.
I dont see what we could have done differently there. Its either lose walker to the main force or to the stupid lash. My issue is that the tower ignored him entirely. He didnt take any damage from the beam and he was out of reach of the stomp. He just sat there and nothing happened to him other than me trying in vain to shoot him off. I've had mcginnis perch in that highground cubby on left lane, just spawning turrets and shooting the tower without consequence. I've had players ignore the tower alltogether and just dive me and my team with no consequence. They've added so much cover under these towers and limited their range so much that they just dont do anything but randomly spit fire and beam 1 creep for 10s while the world melts down around them. They are useless. They should be intimidating, you should feel at least somewhat safe standing under them. Gaurdians have the same issue of just not shooting the enemy. I would rather see creeps do more objective damage in exchange for the tower actively prioritising heroes that are closer or behind the tower's "line". The base gaurdians I guess dont need an improvement but walkers and first gaurdians should target heroes first if they're pulling stupid crap like trying to parry them or poking from your own backline if they're going to allow it to be easily accessed as it is now. I dont even think its really a damage issue for me personally.
I dont want a catchall, that's not what im saying. I'm saying that I want to to be worth getting both plated and spellbreaker. 2 slots is a fair trade for having that kind of coverage, but I will never do it because there arent enough slots anymore and aside from that coverage, they dont do anything else. No offensive support, no repositioning. Cooldown, range, not even bonus health or movement speed, staples of the defensive gear set. They're not worth it and I want that to change or I at least want global nerfs so that it doesn't feel like you have to have both to survive more than 4s against a lash or a haze. Maybe I worded it poorly but I believe I've raised good points in the past to this in effect.
I really don't care if bebop gets buffed or not. I would like to see knockups and movement locks as a whole get dialled back globally first though cus uppercut is pain. As is, I dont want haze buffs. She doesnt need nerfs, she needs more counterplay to her ambush playstyle like a T4 Truesight item so you can see her coming and maybe not get slept and ulted while you're farming in your own territory. Or they could just add trapper to the main game and that problem will take care of itself. If firerate as a whole gets toned down in the shop, then maybe we can talk haze buffs.
Sure you can. Mo can be blocked with unstoppable, and Giest isn't really a threat to anyone that isn't a beginner.
Spellbreaker having cheaper components is a nice idea, I wouldn't mind it myself, but there's probably a good reason that it doesn't build from one of the cheaper items (ie: It's really damn good as is, so the devs could be cautious about making it smoother to build into).
Yes. Correct. The most important actions in the game are the interactions between players, subtle and substantial. One player's mistake is another player's good decision, or at least one of them made a better decision than the other. It's a PvP game, that's how it goes.
So a Haze that ults you without considering nearby cover could indeed be making a mistake. Or it could be part of the attempt to finish you off.
Haze kind of sucks, balance wise, she's a noobstomper. At high level play, her ult is used in the same way that any other character would use their 1 in close range, as a very brief burst of damage, they only use it for a second before cancelling to force their retreat for a more predictable chase. It's pretty sad.
If she catches you out in the open, that's either your mistake, OR, you knew it was coming and conserved stamina for just such an occasion! Or pre-emptively took curse before she could get Unstoppable or something.
Once she has Unstoppable and a bunch of heavy hitting weapon items, yeah she'll kill a lot, but again, the game has to end at some point, if one team doesn't end it the other one will.
Yes, but at my level they're kind of bad. They haven't figured out how to compensate for her flaws.
Geist's leeching ability has a few flaws built in, such as not functioning without line of sight and having a long cooldown, which is why it comes with charge compatibility. It also slows her, which theoretically makes it easier to break line of sight from her.
One way to deal with Geist is to nuke her down fast and force her ultimate. It has a longer cooldown than natural regen heals a character to full, and without that dangerous tool ready, she can't contribute to fights without being blown up.
Even then, I think just about every Geist I've faught against ults me, then I just back out and swap places with a teammate and she dies seconds later. Again, anecdotal, and I'm at the low skill bracket, but that kind of proves she isn't just an easy win, right? If my fairly basic tactic of passing the baton to another guy works consistently, there's more to Geist than click to win.
She's a LOT better in higher skill play, but she's not the best by quite a bit.
Mo&Krill, on the other hand, they're certainly up there, but the Ult isn't what makes them that good. It's a good ult, but the Sand Blast is what's borderline, and they have self sustain and long duration speed+defence buff in addition to all that.
He basically has to buy Phantom Strike against certain characters or he just can't do anything about them, and maybe his teammates are already on that so he doesn't feel the need to get it, but it's a must by against a decently performing enemy flyer.
I think I should have asked this earlier, but, what characters do you play which cause these two in particular to be on your radar? And, have you played as Geist and Mo&Krill any decent amount?
I can see why you think that way, to be fair. And I thought about it, it could be that they're intended for a particular playstyle or role, the latter being something we're seeing a bit more of from the metagame now.
Plated Armour on Kelvin is a bit overkill, since he slows fire rate constantly anyway, and Plater Armour on Wraith is kind of weird because ideally she's a bully who fights and runs down enemies who can't fight back, she wont get much use out of it.
It's really good for durable dudes who don't care as much about building up their power to maximum, so Abrams or even Dynamo could pick it up and feel good about it.
For the duelists, it could be really good, because it beats out a specific damage type and lets you manfight Wraith and Haze and Infernus, assuming you are doing decently on souls and not so far behind.
Not to undercut your point here, but this is kind of what I've been saying the whole time. The mistake is, having allowed whatever happened to happen, to put you in the position of having to defending a low HP Walker from an entire team in the first place. You see?
So, letting that Walker get chipped over the course of the early-mid game before hand, fighting in a silly place that allowed the enemy team to cleanly rotate to that walker as a full force, not applying pressure elsewhere to force the enemy team to choose to either splinter or lose a walker themselves, etc, etc.
It's a hard as balls game, and to some degree you have to see into the future. That Walker wasn't killed because Lash tickled it to death with no consequence. It died because it was roughed up by troop waves over the course of minutes at a time.
OR, because your team fed so hard by taking dumb fights consecutively that they couldn't even stage a team wipe on an enemy team that didn't even Lash ult you guys.
This is stuff I learn by absorbing a lot of pro-gamer stuff. I struggle to put this stuff into practice because I'm not very good at video games now. It's different when you're on the spot and have to do it, right? It's how corrupt cops always fold during internal police interrogations, they're sure they'd know how to beat the room if caught, but then they get caught and they fray under pressure like anyone else.
Aye, you're right, fair enough. As above, I kind of see what you mean.
You put it this way and I almost agree...
The rare Invis use in Deadlock currently makes me wonder if they'll expand the system and it's interactions.
As is, it's probably OK? They could make the invis more obvious within it's current detection range, I guess. It's so underused currently, though, either because it's detection range makes it a bit hard to use or because it's a bit of a costly investment for it's niche purpose, and as a result counter invis items would bury invis outright, invis would need to be stronger for counter invis to be reasonable. Haze being the one character who gets it proper is potentially a bit of a design hump.
Makes me wonder about vision in general, too. Sight lines are long enough, and the sound cues are really good, vertical movement, rooftops, indoors, and the subways make moving across the map hard to monitor with something like a classic ward.
I don't know if this game needs wards or not, to be honest.