Update feels worse than previous patch

[nick]

Hey all,

Just wanted to open a critique thread regarding the direction this update seems to be going towards. While there is some really cool stuff in this patch (counterspell is awesome, new ideas for items are awesome, I like the idea of making the shop look 'better'), it feels that the game has taken two steps back for every step forward.

Characters are slow. Like, real slow. Part of the fun for my friends and myself has always been how good the movement and mechanics of deadlock feel. In the patch, it has notably become much harder to keep momentum, while also feeling a lot less reliable to keep it up. Movement items were hard-nerfed across the board - superior stamina is a shadow of its former self, kinetic dash and arcane surge are now glorified 'Extra Stamina' items. This has reduced the impact of executing kinetic dashes, and the nerfs to superior stamina have made movement feel a lot worse. Characters feel like they lumber around, and CC abilities are as strong as ever.

Additionally, build diversity is down the tubes. Because items rarely branch into a different category (very few gun items that give spirit, spirit items that give weapon damage, or survivability items that build damage), people generally just go full spirit and spam abilities. I'm not the greatest player, and things may be different in Ascendant+, but it honestly feels even more spirit-heavy than last patch. Multiple spirit-oriented characters can easily clear multiple jungle camps in seconds while going gun means you'll farm a lot, lot slower in most cases.

Laning feels worse because the commitment to buy even t1 items is much, much greater. 800 souls per t1 vs. 500 means that each t1 you buy is a good 2-3 waves of creeps each. This has caused already problematic, highly powerful early-game characters like Lady Geist and Gray Talon to feel even worse to lane against - buying sustain items is no longer a paltry 1000g for healing rite/extra regen, but a whopping 1600. This sets builds back a LOT, because you don't come online until you have another 800+ souls.

The pacing also feels a lot worse. It's hard for me to describe, but it feels like there's a lot less brawling and a lot more farming.

Finally, and I feel bad bringing this up because I've seen it constantly brought up already, the new UI for the shop is downright terrible. Far too busy, way too difficult to read. It's incredibly muted in some parts, but then flamboyantly extravagant in others. The beauty of the previous shop was how simple it was. Anyone could look at it and understand what was being conveyed. Simplicity is not a weakness; in many cases, it is a massive strength.

I strongly recommend rolling back some of the changes. I know it can be difficult (I work in development too), but sometimes we have to cut our losses before they do real damage to our projects. I strongly believe this patch will alienate large portions of the playerbase.

[Emmy]

Disagree with literally everything you've said. Adore this update, setting the game on a path to success.

[nick]

Originally posted by Emmy:

Disagree with literally everything you've said. Adore this update, setting the game on a path to success.

You disagree that movement feels worse in this patch?

Toxic positivity is more dangerous for games in development than negativity. It also covers and reduces visibility of valid critcisms. You're also adding nothing to the discussion - what about the UI being far too disorganized do you disagree with? How do you disagree that builds are less diverse?

You're saying you disagree with everything I say: how do you disagree that I have friends who straight up dislike the game after the patch? Do you disagree that they quit the game cold turkey? I guess you also disagree that counterspell is awesome and that the new items are also cool?

I repeat: Toxic positivity is worse than useless - it's dangerous for the development of the game.

[Emmy]

Originally posted by nick:

Originally posted by Emmy:

Disagree with literally everything you've said. Adore this update, setting the game on a path to success.

You disagree that movement feels worse in this patch?

Toxic positivity is more dangerous for games in development than negativity. You're also adding nothing to the discussion - what about the UI being far too disorganized do you disagree with? How do you disagree that builds are less diverse?

You're saying you disagree with everything I say: how do you disagree that I have friends who straight up dislike the game after the patch? Do you disagree that they quit the game cold turkey? I guess you also disagree that counterspell is awesome and that the new items are also cool?

I repeat: Toxic positivity is worse than useless - it's dangerous for the development of the game.

To be fair, yeah, I won't lie about skimming over your taste for the new items.

The UI isn't disorganized to me, it's very readable and takes as much time and thought as any other to get used to.

The builds I think, might feel less diverse because you're not being thrown 16 different amounts of barriers as you fill slots instead of chasing a thought-out powerspike or counter((builds feel much closer to dota in this way)). I find it more engaging to build these unique items rather than just build EVERYTHING. Old item builds were basically "get All the stuff cause it's All good, and sometimes you need unstoppable, metal skin or [targeted CC active]".

I feel like for the realistic success of the game, a 1.0 release that sees real retention desperately needs a less is more approach. I personally find so much more enjoyment out of this update because of mid-late game having heroes specialize in X or Y instead of just running up as a wall of 500rpm, 200 ammo mag, 4000 hp titans with hyperscaling burst in their abilities by the inherent nature of the former item system.

There's still plenty of skill expression to be seen in the game. I feel that through these changes as well, we'll see more hero identities and team comps shine as the pool grows.

[smells like mustafa mon]

Originally posted by nick:

Hey all,

Just wanted to open a critique thread regarding the direction this update seems to be going towards. While there is some really cool stuff in this patch (counterspell is awesome, new ideas for items are awesome, I like the idea of making the shop look 'better'), it feels that the game has taken two steps back for every step forward.

Characters are slow. Like, real slow. Part of the fun for my friends and myself has always been how good the movement and mechanics of deadlock feel. In the patch, it has notably become much harder to keep momentum, while also feeling a lot less reliable to keep it up. Movement items were hard-nerfed across the board - superior stamina is a shadow of its former self, kinetic dash and arcane surge are now glorified 'Extra Stamina' items. This has reduced the impact of executing kinetic dashes, and the nerfs to superior stamina have made movement feel a lot worse. Characters feel like they lumber around, and CC abilities are as strong as ever.

Additionally, build diversity is down the tubes. Because items rarely branch into a different category (very few gun items that give spirit, spirit items that give weapon damage, or survivability items that build damage), people generally just go full spirit and spam abilities. I'm not the greatest player, and things may be different in Ascendant+, but it honestly feels even more spirit-heavy than last patch. Multiple spirit-oriented characters can easily clear multiple jungle camps in seconds while going gun means you'll farm a lot, lot slower in most cases.

Laning feels worse because the commitment to buy even t1 items is much, much greater. 800 souls per t1 vs. 500 means that each t1 you buy is a good 2-3 waves of creeps each. This has caused already problematic, highly powerful early-game characters like Lady Geist and Gray Talon to feel even worse to lane against - buying sustain items is no longer a paltry 1000g for healing rite/extra regen, but a whopping 1600. This sets builds back a LOT, because you don't come online until you have another 800+ souls.

The pacing also feels a lot worse. It's hard for me to describe, but it feels like there's a lot less brawling and a lot more farming.

Finally, and I feel bad bringing this up because I've seen it constantly brought up already, the new UI for the shop is downright terrible. Far too busy, way too difficult to read. It's incredibly muted in some parts, but then flamboyantly extravagant in others. The beauty of the previous shop was how simple it was. Anyone could look at it and understand what was being conveyed. Simplicity is not a weakness; in many cases, it is a massive strength.

I strongly recommend rolling back some of the changes. I know it can be difficult (I work in development too), but sometimes we have to cut our losses before they do real damage to our projects. I strongly believe this patch will alienate large portions of the playerbase.

out of my entire 360 hours playing this game nothing has been worse than this patch, while basic bugs are understandable with any new roll out this one has not only made the shop hard to even look at but it also has made the entire game a slog. the game just isnt fun and its worse, sterile. i dont understand how someone can like this update with the poor state that its in and to defend it seems incredibly copeium

[冬]

I fully agree with your thoughts on the UI and the Movement Cards.

[Runesinger]

I agree with everything you said and I absolutely loved the game (pre-update) - I just don't really get the new build UI (too busy, as you said) and all my favorite items are now too weak to use. I was already sad about the Superior Stamina nerf and wasn't using that item anymore, but now Titanic Magazine is useless in my opinion, as are tons of other items that I used for my builds. A lot of the items are weaker. Pricing is also meh - the discounts don't feel like an upgrade, I liked the linear pricing system before. It felt like you had to work for it more. Now I'm usually decked out way before the game ends.

It feels like it's much more streamlined now and there's less variety in build options. That said, I lost 4 rank levels since the update because of crashes, stuttering, and the fps drops. I'll have to take a break and hope they can fix it. It's the best game that I've played since Heroes of the Storm.

[Fruchtsaftschorle]

Originally posted by Emmy:

Disagree with literally everything you've said. Adore this update, setting the game on a path to success.

cope harder weirdo

[Count]

yes. game is going in the wrong direction.

[ThatOneSnowstorm]

yeah movementspeed is bad if you're not a fortitude user or someone with a speed up, but I love the new items.

[Wilson Lo Siento]

I THINKS THEY SHOULD KEEP IT SLOTS LIKE NORMAL

[Пивка?]

Интерфейс магазина можно сравнить с тем что есть в dota 2 там нужно потратить не мало времени, что бы начать играть на приемлемом уровне, либо сыграть 200 часов в игру, либо слушать лекции.
При этом зайдя в deadlock вообще не возникало вопросов, по поводу привыкания к интерфейсу или геймплею, все было очевидно и понятно, сейчас же игроку нужно приложит не мало усилий с тем что бы разобраться в игре.
Новый интерфейс и темная палитра цветов на игровой карте просто ужасны с точки зрения скорости восприятия, которая так важна в этой игре

[Mailer]

As for the extravagant shop UI, I believe in giving players a choice whether they want their shop to look full of colors or just simple flat colors as before. I can hardly imagine it being difficult to implement something like that. More UI options and personalization in general would be nice, like setting your own contrast on the minimap, which right now seems a bit dark and difficult to read.

I tried a match since taking a break from before it went to 3 lanes from 4, and while the game definitely feels different now, it's just a "I don't mind; I'll get used to it" kind of difference to me. Like the core still plays the same way as before.

Some of the new items are very interesting though; so it's still a fun time to get back into it a little bit.

[Glup Shitto]

Updates good, but matchmaking seems worse than ever

[RosettaStoned]

The movement/momentum changes are absolutely miserable. Feels like i am going to have trouble breathing moving this absolute slog around now

[Alexandrone]

Originally posted by Emmy:

Originally posted by nick:

You disagree that movement feels worse in this patch?

Toxic positivity is more dangerous for games in development than negativity. You're also adding nothing to the discussion - what about the UI being far too disorganized do you disagree with? How do you disagree that builds are less diverse?

You're saying you disagree with everything I say: how do you disagree that I have friends who straight up dislike the game after the patch? Do you disagree that they quit the game cold turkey? I guess you also disagree that counterspell is awesome and that the new items are also cool?

I repeat: Toxic positivity is worse than useless - it's dangerous for the development of the game.

To be fair, yeah, I won't lie about skimming over your taste for the new items.

The UI isn't disorganized to me, it's very readable and takes as much time and thought as any other to get used to.

The builds I think, might feel less diverse because you're not being thrown 16 different amounts of barriers as you fill slots instead of chasing a thought-out powerspike or counter((builds feel much closer to dota in this way)). I find it more engaging to build these unique items rather than just build EVERYTHING. Old item builds were basically "get All the stuff cause it's All good, and sometimes you need unstoppable, metal skin or [targeted CC active]".

I feel like for the realistic success of the game, a 1.0 release that sees real retention desperately needs a less is more approach. I personally find so much more enjoyment out of this update because of mid-late game having heroes specialize in X or Y instead of just running up as a wall of 500rpm, 200 ammo mag, 4000 hp titans with hyperscaling burst in their abilities by the inherent nature of the former item system.

There's still plenty of skill expression to be seen in the game. I feel that through these changes as well, we'll see more hero identities and team comps shine as the pool grows.

Yeah, now you won’t see any 500 RPM, 200 ammo characters, because the vast majority of gun builds are now dead. Spirit is objectively the better choice for both CC and DPS, so gun-centered characters like Vyper are just dead. Now the matchmaking is just the constant Shiv, Geist, Bebop, Talon, Infernus, Yamato spam, because they were very strong before the update and now they are even stronger. Playing a match with a gun-centric hero or a gun build is just masochism at this point (I’ll continue doing it anyway), as picking any spirit hero is just a much more pleasant experience, because you don’t have to try nearly as much to win, while with the gun characters you have to sweat just to stay somewhat competitive.

I’ve heard many people say that the devs wanted to make TTK longer and, while I think it is a good intention, they just butchered the execution. Shiv still does absolutely insane damage, Bebop still has no problem outright murdering you in a couple seconds and Lash still “gotcha numba baby” just as hard as he did before. So they only really increased TTK for anyone using guns as something more than spirit resist debuffers and for anyone playing against Lady Geist, since she is unbelievably broken right now.

Also, the new shop really is just a mess of different colors and shapes that is confusing to the senses. Yes, it is very aestheticaly pleasing, but it is very hard to navigate during gameplay.