Why I stopped playing (Archer)

[DIOciraptor]

I want to like this game. I absolutely ADORED the demo for it. It felt snappy, energetic, and really fun to explore and engage with. I finished it multiple times, and could not wait to see the full release.

And now I'm done with it. I haven't even made to Hafin city yet, on the "normal" difficulty, and I'm so fed up that I'm out. At least for a while. At least with the archer.

I have no complaints aesthetically. The art is great, the music is fantastic. The sound and lighting and all of that are entirely on point. No notes.

But the gameplay is just absolutely soul-crushing. It's not that it's hard. I like hard. The problem is that it's unfair. Let me explain.

Why do the archer's shots miss after about half-screen? I can guess that it's because the designers wanted to create a more "intimate" play experience for the archer. Instead of just sniping enemies from across the room, you're encouraged and forced to get a little closer, engage in their mechanics, and do neat ♥♥♥♥.
It's the same reason that games like DMC or Bayonetta make ranged combat more of a side-element of the experience, and why DMC 2, which made proper gun combat super viable, felt like trash compared to its contemporaries. These enemies are designed to be fought at a closer range, so it is deeply unsatisfying to just pick them off from a distance and remain unchallenged by them.

Okay, fine. I accept that premise. But why, then, is it that enemy projectiles go on FOREVER? The little hammer kobolds can THROW A HAMMER IN AN ARC further than I can shoot a bow in a straight line. Why do the enemies get to have proper ranged combat, while I'm limited to an eight-directional straight-line attack that only goes about four character lengths before losing any and all efficacy?

And if that handicap to the archer wasn't enough, they also have severely limited opportunities to even make those attacks. You start with three arrows, and each takes about 1.5 seconds to refill after it is used. This means that, in a real fight, you get to make .66 shots per second, while your opponent gets to do so much more. And that's just one-on-one. If you have two or more active hostiles at the same time, you are at a severe disadvantage.

There are, ostensibly, two ways to avoid having to adhere to this 1.5 second rule for your arrows. Either do a lot of "hit and fade" ♥♥♥♥ where you basically get a few shots off, run away to "reload" then come back and do it again (not fun AT ALL), or you throw your bow.

The bow throw SUCKS, though. It moves about two character-lengths, stops dead for about a second, then slowly comes back. Meanwhile, your character can do NOTHING aside from dodge and run away.

The best case scenario is that you get to hit the enemy three times and get the bow and three arrows back in about the same time it would have taken for one or two arrows to refresh if you had done nothing. And the damage is absolutely not worth the risk. Because it is a risk. The enemies in this game are better than you in just about every way. They attack faster, they are never, EVER stunned by your own attacks (you are stunned/knocked back/put to sleep by ALL of theirs), and they can often take a full fourth of your health pool in a single strike. This is less true in the spider caves, but becomes very VERY apparent once you leave them.

If you're lucky, or you know the enemy's attack patterns really well, you can sometimes engineer scenarios in which you can fire off a salvo, throw the bow, and dodge roll through an attack while the bow is coming back. That's the dream. It almost never happens.

Yes, you have a block button that can help with some things, but you can only block MAYBE two attacks before your guard breaks and you take more damage than you would have if you just hadn't blocked in the first place. In some cases, it is literally better just to eat a hit than to block it.

Don't even get me started on the "other" dodge roll. It's a cool mobility trick, and it has its uses once you've absolutely mastered an enemy's attack patterns. But it's also utterly worthless against more than half of what is thrown at you, and will get you killed more often than it doesn't.

Those are the problems with the character. There are also problems with enemy design, especially bosses.

Bosses in this game seem to have two states. "What the ♥♥♥♥ am I supposed to do!?" and "Oh, is this it?" Each one seems to have one specific tactic that works on each of their attacks, and nothing else really works. The gladiator does the EXACT SAME ATTACK over and over again until you knock him to almost half health.

He jumps.
He dives.
He dashes.
No variation whatsoever.

At first, because of the speed at which the game operates, that attack feels damn near invincible. Then you figure it out. Dodge roll at the exact moment he dives, then buffer the second dodge roll in preparation for the dash. It works EVERY TIME. There is nothing new to react to, just a repetitious execution problem with a health bar. Even after his phase change and he gets a couple new moves, those are just as predictable and controllable. He throws spears, jump over the spears. He dashes in and jabs, dodge roll through him and shoot him in the back. That's it. That's the whole fight. The only thing that makes it challenging is how fast he moves and how much damage each mistake is worth. It's either frustratingly punishing or frustratingly tedious.

And I've found this with EVERY boss. The spider boss at the end of the first zone starts with ONE MOVE ON REPEAT, then she gets a second which you just avoid because it moves too fast to counterattack, and eventually she gets a second set of moves that are plainly telegraphed, easily dodged, but not really interactive.

I got to the minotaur fight in the forest and had to quit. If he decides to walk towards you and just slash his axe, you can't get away. You literally can't. You can't jump over him, and you only get one dodge every two seconds. If you dodge through him to keep from getting cornered, he'll just immediately do another slash on the opposite side so quickly that you CANNOT get out of it. The only thing I didn't try was immediately blocking, but something tells me that it wouldn't work out great.

As I said at the start. I WANT to like this game. I really, REALLY do. But it won't let me. I tried approaching it as a souls-like, but the enemies get to play by different rules than I do. I tried approaching it as a character action game, but I don't have enough options at my disposal to feel like precision and careful observation are really rewarded. I have really, genuinely, even tried to play this game on its own terms.

It really feels like the game doesn't WANT me to like it. At least not with the archer.

[ZeRo-Fighting]

Just keep going, the archer is so good. I started with Scout and got to the Pyramid with him and felt like the archer would be better for that area.

For the Minotaur, you need to be using your skill Skirmish. It lets you keep dodging behind him. Dodge, Skirmish, Skirmish then run because he's about to whirlwind. His 2nd phase you just need to duck if he throws his yellow axe higher. Once you get to the to Hafin you have access to Hafin Dam. You take the south route from the forest right before Hafin. There are rats in this place that are weak to fire but give 100 exp a pop. Personally, I stayed here until level 23. By that point I had 7 arrows, a skill that gives increased range, faster bow speed and attack rate. You just start dominating everything.
And that's on Warrior difficulty.

Keep going, you're so close.

P.S. there's a bat in Hafin Dam that can drop a Blood Ring. It has magnetism to attract all the money and health and gives you life on kill. Also +3 attack which is nice for awhile.

[DIOciraptor]

Originally posted by ZeRo-Fighting:

Just keep going, the archer is so good. I started with Scout and got to the Pyramid with him and felt like the archer would be better for that area.

For the Minotaur, you need to be using your skill Skirmish. It lets you keep dodging behind him. Dodge, Skirmish, Skirmish then run because he's about to whirlwind. His 2nd phase you just need to duck if he throws his yellow axe higher. Once you get to the to Hafin you have access to Hafin Dam. You take the south route from the forest right before Hafin. There are rats in this place that are weak to fire but give 100 exp a pop. Personally, I stayed here until level 23. By that point I had 7 arrows, a skill that gives increased range, faster bow speed and attack rate. You just start dominating everything.
And that's on Warrior difficulty.

Keep going, you're so close.

P.S. there's a bat in Hafin Dam that can drop a Blood Ring. It has magnetism to attract all the money and health and gives you life on kill. Also +3 attack which is nice for awhile.

Hmmm... I'm not sure if that's encouraging or disappointing.

I sincerely appreciate the encouragement, but what you describe genuinely just sounds like a different form of unfun. I don't want to be overpowered and untouchable any more than I want to feel like a gnat in a windstorm. "Just level up past the point of difficulty" has never felt like a fun way to approach a difficult situation. I'm certain it's an effective one, but I worry that I would just be a different kind of disappointed and bored. As I said with the boss fight complaint, there is no middle ground between punishing and tedious. I'd rather not experience a larger-scale version of that same problem.

Originally posted by AxelZz797:

TRGHRGHRFHGF

That's just, like, your opinion man.

[SaveMyCow]

I wouldn't agree about bosses - yes they do not have many attacks and just require execution, but I wouldn't say it's a bad thing. Their simplicity is what makes "fire off a salvo, throw the bow, and dodge roll through an attack while the bow is coming back" possible, and I often pull this out. Bosses for me are one of the best things in this game. They are tough, but not too much (although that's subjective of course, what I mean is not "solo Malenia hard").
Regarding Minotaur - working solution for me was RB dodge. Boss hits three times with axe if you reachable, then goes for spin, which has enough startup to escape, and lasts enough for salvo.

[ZeRo-Fighting]

Don't worry, I'm exaggerating. Even leveling myself a bunch it is very difficult. But I feel like I'm the right power level for the area instead of being a gnat.

Honestly, I was ready to stop this game a couple times. I haven't screamed at my computer like that in quite some time. I felt the same way about many things you stated. I just took a break and tried again the next day. Once I was decent strength you start making "normal" progress and the game just starts to move.

Good luck with everything.

[Zero1]

You get more arrows when you level up more am at lvl 22 you will have 6 arrows and skill tree you get piercing shot. Over all like ranger it is rough at the start for sure tho

[DIOciraptor]

Originally posted by SaveMyCow:

I wouldn't agree about bosses - yes they do not have many attacks and just require execution, but I wouldn't say it's a bad thing. Their simplicity is what makes "fire off a salvo, throw the bow, and dodge roll through an attack while the bow is coming back" possible, and I often pull this out. Bosses for me are one of the best things in this game. They are tough, but not too much (although that's subjective of course, what I mean is not "solo Malenia hard").
Regarding Minotaur - working solution for me was RB dodge. Boss hits three times with axe if you reachable, then goes for spin, which has enough startup to escape, and lasts enought for salvo.

The boss I always think of when I consider this stance is Mantis Lords from Hollow Knight. That fight is fairly predictable, largely cyclical, and extremely phase-dependent. Hell, the second half of that fight is just the first half, but two of them going at once instead of just one.

So why is that one of my favorite boss fights in a video game, and the bosses here just feel boring to me? This is a genuine question that I have been asking myself as I play Souldiers, and I can only attribute it to one thing. Mantis Lords mixes it up. Sure, you can see what's coming as it comes, but it isn't always the exact same pattern every single time. Also, each and every one of the Mantis' attacks can be interacted with. They don't have a single pattern that you can't get at least one hit in on them. That feels a lot less true here.

Maybe I'm just bad. Maybe I'm just failing to see my opportunities to properly capitalize. I'm fully willing to accept that this just isn't a game that I can properly grok. But I feel like I am constantly punished for doing anything even a little bit experimental with the tools available.

[DIOciraptor]

Originally posted by ZeRo-Fighting:

Don't worry, I'm exaggerating. Even leveling myself a bunch it is very difficult. But I feel like I'm the right power level for the area instead of being a gnat.

Honestly, I was ready to stop this game a couple times. I haven't screamed at my computer like that in quite some time. I felt the same way about many things you stated. I just took a break and tried again the next day. Once I was decent strength you start making "normal" progress and the game just starts to move.

Good luck with everything.

Okay, cool. Thanks. I'll try a bit more, then. If anything else, at least my venting my frustrations was able to help me gain some insight that the "hard times" are almost over.

I really hope the game gets a bit of a balance pass for the non-scout classes. They just need a small utility boost to really get through the early game.

Also, Skirmish messes with my brain. There is something about "tap one button for one dodge, hold the button and press a direction for the other" that just ♥♥♥♥♥ me up. I'll keep trying, though.

[Gothique]

Like everyone else have said Archer start out really slow but once they start to get more tools available they start to jump leap to became busted. You get extra arrow every 6 level to the max of 10, and Archer early skill are straight forward part you pretty much get all of them that are available at level 18 since Archer branching skill part doesn't open until level 20.
You will get pretty much all the upgraded need to make throwing Bow do decent damage and recover lot of arrows on the way. and also increase range of arrow.
Before the Pyramid you get a double jump which make Archer really good at taking enemies that rush to you since you can jump and shoot down on their head and double jump away. (and later you at air dodge/dash)
They already feel super good to play after level 18-20 and pass the Pyramid but the skill they unlock later even pushing them further. They get piercing arrow, even more range upgrade, shooting 2 arrow at once (while still cost 1 arrow), toggle that use Mana to make arrow guarantee to inflict status effect (ex. Fire always inflict burn, Sand always inflict blind, etc).

[SaveMyCow]

@DIOciraptor I agree that in comparison with Hollow Knight Souldiers are a bit pale (pun not intended). Regarding HK bosses feeling better, I think it might have something to do with your character movement - HK's overall movement feel is one of the best in gaming, and Souldiers' is not - not terrible, but lacking something i feel.

[Nemphtis]

I could answer your questions, but I don't really think it would change your mind. If you haven't even made it to Hafin yet and you're already broken, I wouldn't bother trying to continue. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I guess it's just not for you.

[IronAngus]

My personal experience is that playing the Archer has been a blast. I am not a big twitch gamer so the combat is definitely hard for me, but the distance and defense management of the Archer is like a little puzzle.

I was a bit worried during the Spider Caves where the Archer always felt just slightly weak and the boss fights were really hard. Some on the forums said the second area (Pyramid) was significantly harder. I'm well into the Pyramid and it is clicking better than the Spider Caves. Maybe the Archer just takes time to learn? Also managing elemental strengths and weaknesses becomes more important in the Pyramid and surrounding area.

The Pumpkin Golem sucks.

Definitely save up 700 gold for a bow upgrade in Hafin city. It is +3 strength and made a noticeable improvement.

I never block. Move/jump/dodge always seem better. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Chocos Ramabotti]

You could just switch to easy mode you know?

[Black Captain]

Originally posted by Nemphtis:

I could answer your questions, but I don't really think it would change your mind. If you haven't even made it to Hafin yet and you're already broken, I wouldn't bother trying to continue. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I guess it's just not for you.

... you have this "just quit" attitude in all of you posts. It's stuff like this that keeps devs from getting new players. If you are just going to run everyone away from the game, don't expect a sequel... or further support. Just say nothing or rant about people not liking the game in your own thread...

[Cute Tea Goat]

Yeah, Archer starts off pretty ♥♥♥♥, but as you get extra arrows every 6 levels, and fill out the left side of the mastery tree (which is mostly skills to make your basic attacks suck a little less, including extra effective range for your arrows), things do start to feel a lot better.

I do actually like the archer's skirmish dodge and counterattacks quite a bit. It's satisfying to pull off, shoots homing shots, and doesn't cost arrows. The only thing I'd change is to make the button more responsive. If you're already holding left or right and press the button, he should do the dodge, not just enter the dodge stance.

As you said, once you learn enemy attack patterns, it can be very effective. Dark Lancer for example, if you dodge roll his dive, then skirmish backwards, you'll get the counterattack every time for tons of free damage. It's also typically very good against projectiles approaching you vertically.

[Nemphtis]

Originally posted by Black Captain:

Originally posted by Nemphtis:

I could answer your questions, but I don't really think it would change your mind. If you haven't even made it to Hafin yet and you're already broken, I wouldn't bother trying to continue. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I guess it's just not for you.

... you have this "just quit" attitude in all of you posts. It's stuff like this that keeps devs from getting new players. If you are just going to run everyone away from the game, don't expect a sequel... or further support. Just say nothing or rant about people not liking the game in your own thread...

Actually, my attitude in most of my responses to people having trouble is telling them to stick with it, and they'll be able to overcome what they're stuck on, and I advise them on how to tackle that section.

If I tell someone that they're better off playing something they actually enjoy, it's because they're having an awful time with the game. We play video games for entertainment, and they're clearly not being entertained.

They should go play something they actually enjoy, they've given their feedback on what made them upset, and if the developers release an update addressing their concerns, they can come back and try it out again, but there's no point forcing themselves to play a game they're having a miserable time on.