F&**# the stupid tic tac toe mechanic. Its so poorly implemented that it feels broken

[ChubbiChibbai]

EDIT: It's not. It's actually pretty good but you just have to get the knack of it.

Most the second level feels like you are having to glitch to get through the map compared to the first level which felt so well made.

The tic tac toe mechanic is basically a wall run and jump yet its so badly implemented compared to other games with a similar mechanic.

Why force this ridiculous combo of keys.... jump.... w+a... look where you are going... jump again. All that with overly sensitive angles to make it fail or work.

Surely this could just be exactly like a minimised wall run from other games where once you have the perk you can hit a wall at an angle and it does most the work for you and you just have to aim and bounce off. Why the need for the overly complicated implementation?

Sorry but i just went from loving everything about the game to utterly hating everything about it and feeling that now i have this stupidly thought out ability im probably going to be expected to use it in other levels.

Or at least if people for some reason do want the sadistic key combos maybe add an option for a more simplified version.

Most the time i get that i need to use the method but it takes about 20 times to get it to actually do what you want i to do

/rant.

[Stiles]

I would say a you issue, not a game issue. It is super intuitive and easy to use.

[ChubbiChibbai]

Originally posted by Stiles:

I would say a you issue, not a game issue. It is super intuitive and easy to use.

Yeah fair enough honestly.
It made me super frustrated as you can tell.

I think its because the first level wasn't significantly challenging and it set the tone for me as a fairly chill low skill exploration game where as this second level felt very punishing to someone struggling with a skill.

I'll give it more time. Glad to hear it works for you (and probably most people)

[ChubbiChibbai]

Originally posted by Stiles:

I would say a you issue, not a game issue. It is super intuitive and easy to use.

Ok i just want to say thanks for replying and telling me it was a skill issue.

I just replayed the second level again and was more familiar with the route and the tic tac so i actually enjoyed it way more.

But thanks because after how i felt last night i was more or less given up on the game but now im into the third level and am really enjoying it once more.

[Rubeki Games Official Guy]

It is a bit counter intuitive to most games, since the common route is to snap the player into the wall, let them run horizontally for a while, look around, and jump. Very user friendly!

I was trying to simulate the actual parkour move called tic tac.

It's performed by hopping and kicking off a wall to reach a higher location. This is why it only activates on your sides - you have to kick backwards and up while using your initial jump momentum as well to generate enough friction on the wall to even perform a jump.

If you do this in real life, it takes some trial and error. Until you're good at it, you'll miss the timing, or not know how to coordinate looking at the target and aiming at the wall at the same time.

I've personally, in real life, kicked short of a wall and fell into it lol

But just like in real life, it's very rewarding once you actually do get it (at least imo :P)

[live22morrow]

It's not really a skill issue, the game just doesn't really explain the mechanic well. To be more clear: If you're in the air while you're next to a vertical wall, and the direction your view is facing is around parallel or away from the wall, you'll hear the sliding sound and your view will tilt a bit (on default settings). Jumping at that point will launch at whatever direction you're facing.

I would just stand next to a wall and experiment with your view angles while jumping until you find what's consistent.

[ChubbiChibbai]

Originally posted by Rubeki Games Official Guy:

It is a bit counter intuitive to most games, since the common route is to snap the player into the wall, let them run horizontally for a while, look around, and jump. Very user friendly!

I was trying to simulate the actual parkour move called tic tac.

It's performed by hopping and kicking off a wall to reach a higher location. This is why it only activates on your sides - you have to kick backwards and up while using your initial jump momentum as well to generate enough friction on the wall to even perform a jump.

If you do this in real life, it takes some trial and error. Until you're good at it, you'll miss the timing, or not know how to coordinate looking at the target and aiming at the wall at the same time.

I've personally, in real life, kicked short of a wall and fell into it lol

But just like in real life, it's very rewarding once you actually do get it (at least imo :P)

Thanks for the explanation and intent of the design.
As you can see i found it terribly frustrating at first but as you also said - once you get to grips with it it's very rewarding. I've replayed stage 2 now a few times and feel that i have it down properly and can do it pretty consistently.

For me the issue in learning was understanding that where i looked was a big part in activating it properly. Initially i wasn't doing this. I know the tutorial explains this but for whatever reason i was not connecting the dots as to why it sometimes failed because my brain got more hung up on jump then W+A then jump

In fact its really quite simple. You run at the wall as if you were going to jump when you connect with it - and so long as you look where you are going it seems to work.

I'm definitely not editing my initial post either even though im ashamed of the rant because i want to remember my frustration but then also remember managing to push through and figure it out and maybe it will help others see my impression of the move and its controls go from very negative to very positive.

[iSinner]

Originally posted by Rubeki Games Official Guy:

It is a bit counter intuitive to most games, since the common route is to snap the player into the wall, let them run horizontally for a while, look around, and jump. Very user friendly!

I was trying to simulate the actual parkour move called tic tac.

It's performed by hopping and kicking off a wall to reach a higher location. This is why it only activates on your sides - you have to kick backwards and up while using your initial jump momentum as well to generate enough friction on the wall to even perform a jump.

If you do this in real life, it takes some trial and error. Until you're good at it, you'll miss the timing, or not know how to coordinate looking at the target and aiming at the wall at the same time.

I've personally, in real life, kicked short of a wall and fell into it lol

But just like in real life, it's very rewarding once you actually do get it (at least imo :P)

Fun and realism is not the same thing, i think the game should pursue fun.

Here are some thoughts on this from Gabe himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGpFEv1-mAo

My opinion, the Hunter jumping mechanic from left 4 dead is amazing, it was a blast jumping from walls with hunter and then rain down terror on survivors from above. The jumping just worked. As long as you were close to the wall and not facing it, it just let you jump. Which allowed for some insane parkour videos. And most importantly, it was fun.

I liked tic tac, the first thing that i missed on acquiring the ability in the game, was being able to jump while looking away from the wall. But it might be my bias, you would need to try left 4 dead for yourself to get a feel for hunter's jumping.

People liked the hunter jumping so much that custom servers implemented mods to uncap the hunters damage(it was 25 max) on jump based on the flight distance. People were making parkour videos just with the jumping mechanic.
Check out this parkour video for example: https://youtu.be/Oyat0m7TVhg?t=46

[ChubbiChibbai]

Yep the hunter was great in L4D.
I certainly think an easier implementation would create less friction..... but i also have now run this second map a bunch of times using both keyboard and mouse and steam deck controls and it now feels very easy to the point where im wondering how i even struggled.

[rustynail]

what [live22tomorrow] said
the initial tutorial makes you overthink it a bit, the whole w+a thing is irrelevant and it's just to get you on a wall
generally as long as you're next to a wall and you're aiming directly at some ledge and jump, you will make the jump. There are some limitations to angle, so you should be moderately away from the ledge when you jump but it's easy to get the hang of it, in the later parts of the game I never even had to think about how this works

[glyphic]

I will say I hated the tic tac to begin with but you get used to it. By the time you're in stage 5 or so it feels completely natural.

The only feedback I would give is maybe the degrees you need to aim above the "horizon" could be decreased in order to get a high jump. I think the default thing someone wants is to jump up rather than do the "speed stop" tic tac, which as far as I can remember isn't even needed in the normal levels, only one simulation level.

[Neromishi]

Skill issue, nuff said.

[ChubbiChibbai]

Originally posted by rustynail:

what [live22tomorrow] said
the initial tutorial makes you overthink it a bit, the whole w+a thing is irrelevant and it's just to get you on a wall
generally as long as you're next to a wall and you're aiming directly at some ledge and jump, you will make the jump. There are some limitations to angle, so you should be moderately away from the ledge when you jump but it's easy to get the hang of it, in the later parts of the game I never even had to think about how this works

Did you try with a controller at all?
I've got it down on keyboard but with controller i have to already angle my view to where i want to go because its really fiddly trying to aim with right stick as well as press a to jump.

[ChubbiChibbai]

Originally posted by glyphic:

I will say I hated the tic tac to begin with but you get used to it. By the time you're in stage 5 or so it feels completely natural.

The only feedback I would give is maybe the degrees you need to aim above the "horizon" could be decreased in order to get a high jump. I think the default thing someone wants is to jump up rather than do the "speed stop" tic tac, which as far as I can remember isn't even needed in the normal levels, only one simulation level.

Originally posted by glyphic:

I will say I hated the tic tac to begin with but you get used to it. By the time you're in stage 5 or so it feels completely natural.

The only feedback I would give is maybe the degrees you need to aim above the "horizon" could be decreased in order to get a high jump. I think the default thing someone wants is to jump up rather than do the "speed stop" tic tac, which as far as I can remember isn't even needed in the normal levels, only one simulation level.

What is the speed stop?
Is it where you break your velocity / fall?

If so level 2 calls out for you to use this at one point along with a tutorial for how to do it.

[rustynail]

Originally posted by ChubbiChibbai:

Originally posted by rustynail:

what [live22tomorrow] said
the initial tutorial makes you overthink it a bit, the whole w+a thing is irrelevant and it's just to get you on a wall
generally as long as you're next to a wall and you're aiming directly at some ledge and jump, you will make the jump. There are some limitations to angle, so you should be moderately away from the ledge when you jump but it's easy to get the hang of it, in the later parts of the game I never even had to think about how this works

Did you try with a controller at all?
I've got it down on keyboard but with controller i have to already angle my view to where i want to go because its really fiddly trying to aim with right stick as well as press a to jump.

No, I've only played with mouse. Now that I think of, it would probably be harder for me too since I generally only use controller for games where sticks only move the character and the camera and nothing is actually aimed, while this game uses aim pretty actively for most of its mechanics