Levels 2 and 3 linear?

[Bruce1947]

Am i missing something or are chapter 2 and 3 a little disappointingly linear compared to chapter 1?

In chapter 1 i really felt like every setpiece had a million different entrances and options/solutions and alternate routes (breaking the window and getting out immediately for example) while level 2 and 3 have felt a lot more linear and a lot less dense to me. Chapter 2 specifically felt weird. It's massive and open, lots of secrets and optional places, but ultimately there's only one very static way to solve the objective (get the key, turn the power on, activate the bridge) early on in that level there's a place where you can activate a button by throwing somethingat it, and i was convinced i'd be able to do that with the bridge, but it just never came into play. I tried really hard to find alternate ways of getting in, but ultimately i just had to go get the key and unlock it in the boring normal way the game told me to do it in, which didn't feel very good. Not necessarily bad, just not nearly as good as figuring out my own weird solution to the problem. I could of course be missing a bunch of stuff so i wanted to make sure to get other opinions.

[ImNotFine]

yeah chapter 1 was by far the best level out of the released 5. sad it starts you off with the best and then cuts down from there

[Gozer1003]

Can't Say I agree entirely, Level 2 might have Static Objectives but there are Multiple ways to accomplish them for the most part. For example I know of 3 Ways across the Dock yard and seen a video of one I am not sure how they did it.

1. Use the Tram
2. Use barrels to hop over locked gate near where you start then get harpoon nearby then swim across taking out sharks as you go
3. Swim to Row Boats avoiding Sharks as you go
4. Watched a Video of someone Tight Roping across on the Tram cable itself

As another example there are several ways below deck on the Ship and getting into the Power Plant.

To your point though I don't know of another way to get the key to the control room that does not involve taking down everyone in the room. Played through twice this weekend and loved every minute as it has a good deal of variety, though I'd say that Chapter 3 was probably the weakest for me as it was the shortest and most action heavy of the lot, but it does seem to serve the story they are telling. All that said I would not mind an alternate way to lower the bridge though not sure what it could be.

[fourfourtwo79]

I agree about Chapter 3 being the weakest, though that's also a bit relative. Fun there to had too.. (booby) traps, kickin' da guys in fronta that train, I think this would be a bit more interesting though if from time to time there was more of a gang war going on. Like perhaps guys spawning into the map and taking each other on. That's the "unique" thing about the situation on this map, after all.

About the other maps: Absolutely top drawer. Chapter 4 is such a heavy nod to Thief, I wiped a tear outta my eye. And what they did in Chapter 5 with the demo level was also amazing. Each level is also very distinct, both in gameplay as well as visually. If they can keep that up, not gonna complain here.

Level design easily amongst the strong points of this game. Even bigger studios would be proud of it. As to the main objective in Chapter 2, it's basically a key hunt. Keys are keys are keys. How you get there is up to you. For more open objectives, the less key hunts, the merrier naturally. Difficulty level is currently the biggest thing. I'd just increase enemy damage in the meantime (optionally). Except for snipers. Their hits hit hard, as they should naturally.

[Aces Dev]

I'd argue that chapt 2 is one of the most open levels in the episode, ya gotta explore more.

[Waltnut]

Chapter 2 is expansive af

[Sir Kermitton]

Chapter 2 is wild. There's sharks, snipers, a speargun. It's got the 3 S's!

Some rooms are more locked down then others but that makes the wider exploration a bit more rewarding rather than running around the building looking for the vent. Have you explored the ships or found the gun shipment the mob tried to stash away?

[Waltnut]

Originally posted by Sir Kermitton:

Chapter 2 is wild. There's sharks, snipers, a speargun. It's got the 3 S's!

Some rooms are more locked down then others but that makes the wider exploration a bit more rewarding rather than running around the building looking for the vent. Have you explored the ships or found the gun shipment the mob tried to stash away?

I find most of the locked doors are shortcuts back to the beginning. A matter of “getting on the other side and unlocking from there” instead of having to hunt keys to open shortcuts, which is good.

[Bruce1947]

Originally posted by Aces Dev:

I'd argue that chapt 2 is one of the most open levels in the episode, ya gotta explore more.

i mentioned that it's very open and i quite loved that part, but i felt the latter half of the main objectives felt a bit limited compared to the first level or even the first part of chapter 2 (getting into the control room/ turning on the power) . (btw, wanna mention i love the game, absolutely not trying to be super negative, just something i felt in that moment. coming from a place of love. thank you for your work on what will probably end up being my GOTY once it's done!)

[Flying Gorilla Real]

I remember the demo having loading zones for entering the Moth and Flame! Thats how much better the new one is.

And oh my god there are a lot of ways to enter that place and I LOVE IT.

Really love the open-ness of the level design letting you go wherever, like, you can just take a different path out of the apartment in Chapter 1 and just go from there. its great. Love the variety of ways you can take on the levels.

[etalian]

I'd say levels 1/2 were the best in feeling more open and also having the biggest number of secrets to dig up.

Other levels are good but just felt much more compact / shorter by comparison.

I'd rate level 2 / The docks as being my favorite level in whole game due to all the secrets and also the various ways you can navigate to the level objectives. It's also the most fun for getting long distance sniper kills.

[dem]

I think the problem with #2 in particular is you're not doing anything interesting. Felt like a doom level.

[fourfourtwo79]

Originally posted by dem:

I think the problem with #2 in particular is you're not doing anything interesting. Felt like a doom level.

That's a drastic take. But it likely also boils down to one of the main objectives being a key hunt (which all Doom levels boiled down to). A key is a key is a key. And if that's mandatory to progress, it's the only way. The nightclub in Chapter 5 also has an important room you can get into by a key. Finding that key isn't the only way inside that room though. https://steamcommunity.com/app/1411910/discussions/1/4349995545098603844/


Whilst id were still developing Doom, here's how the Godfathers of 0451 tried to infuse their 3d games with player agency and choice back then:

https://i.imgur.com/eJqvGp5.png

(from Ultima Underworld 2's manual)



I think even locked doors or key hunts can be made more interesting via simple means. Taken from a 1998 review of the original Thief (written by Starfield's project lead, btw.) ;-)

Really the best thing about Thief: The Dark Project is the way it encourages the player to think through any situation, and get as creative as possible within the confines of the game. Here's a perfect example of what I mean: on one occasion, while prowling around a huge manor house, I came upon a servant carrying a tray of food. I could have easily knocked him out, or just stolen the key right off his belt, but instead I followed him to his destination -- which was precisely where I needed to go.

https://web.archive.org/web/20041120230430/http://www.avault.com/reviews/review_temp.asp?game=thief&page=3

I say comparably simple, as this involves AI patrolling and also opening/unlocking doors themselves. Still, even without, this is usually better if you don't find key locations by accident, but via a dialogue, observation or document, that is your own brainwork. E.g. "One of the servants downstairs is carrying the master's key. He brings him food every time he rings theh bell." Added bonus in this case for making that bell usable, so that every time you'd ring the bell, the servant would go unlock the master's room.

edit: Sorry, long post. Fascinating topic.

[Sverd]

Originally posted by fourfourtwo79:

I agree about Chapter 3 being the weakest, though that's also a bit relative. Fun there to had too.. (booby) traps, kickin' da guys in fronta that train, I think this would be a bit more interesting though if from time to time there was more of a gang war going on. Like perhaps guys spawning into the map and taking each other on. That's the "unique" thing about the situation on this map, after all.

About the other maps: Absolutely top drawer. Chapter 4 is such a heavy nod to Thief, I wiped a tear outta my eye. And what they did in Chapter 5 with the demo level was also amazing. Each level is also very distinct, both in gameplay as well as visually. If they can keep that up, not gonna complain here.

Level design easily amongst the strong points of this game. Even bigger studios would be proud of it. As to the main objective in Chapter 2, it's basically a key hunt. Keys are keys are keys. How you get there is up to you. For more open objectives, the less key hunts, the merrier naturally. Difficulty level is currently the biggest thing. I'd just increase enemy damage in the meantime (optionally). Except for snipers. Their hits hit hard, as they should naturally.

I agree, I had fun with all the levels, but I think I'd agree chapter 3 is the weakest. It's pretty short and I was expecting some inter-gang violence with the setup and how it introduced that mooks can have different factions/affiliations. Still fun though!

[etalian]

I still find it hilarious how the OP is whining about level #2 not having enough options / solutions to explore.

There's literally multiple ways to get across the other side, my favorite being the tight rope walk on the cable

For my level ranking:
1) Level #1, amazing visuals and perfect setup for the game
2) Level #2, Has many of the strengths that made level #1 / intro but ends up being slightly weaker
3) Level #5, enjoyed the compact design and all the small details for the night club. Bonus points for best voice acting of the year for the hot dog disaster
4) Level #4, great as a short "cool down" level after the last levels action packed set piece but not as many interesting ways to traverse the level
5) Level #3, felt too short and not as a dense as the other levels. The whole warring gangs twist doesn't actually make enough impact on the actual level experience

[Bruce1947]

Originally posted by etalian:

I still find it hilarious how the OP is whining about level #2 not having enough options / solutions to explore.

1. i'm not whining, i'm giving feedback to a game in early access that I think could be better.
2. I've acknowledged that the first part of level 2 is great, which you would see if you actually read what i said instead of just complaining about it. it is the second part of the level i'm talking about. (as mentioned, specifically getting into the control station)
3. you yourself acknowledge that level 2 and 3 are weaker than 1, so i really don't understand what your problem is.