Is It Possible to Be Successful As A Socialist?

[LyghtWayve]

Can one be a socialist in this game and be successful?

I am implementing socialist policies such as funding for school, healthcare, etc. which should result in a healthier and more intelligent populace able to get better jobs or to otherwise stimulate the economy. Yet it seems to be driving me to cut corporate taxes to stimulate GDP.

I am hoping the simulation is dynamic enough such that different economic models and approaches can work. I don't want to be forced to just do a cater-to-the-rich approach.

So, any tips on how to be successful as a socialist?

[Wolfsun]

NO. Not in real life and hopefully not in the game. Margaret Thatcher is quoted as saying, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." You've got a good heartLyghtWayve just keep this in mind. "The road to HELL is paved with good intentions."

[LyghtWayve]

Originally posted by Wolfsun:

NO. Not in real life and hopefully not in the game. Margaret Thatcher is quoted as saying, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." You've got a good heartLyghtWayve just keep this in mind. "The road to HELL is paved with good intentions."

The problem with capitalism is that the 1% take all the money and convince the 99% they just have to work harder.

All economic systems have their strengths and weaknesses.

At any rate, hopefully the developer or someone experienced in the game can respond to this question.

[cliffski]

You can win on every country using socialist policies, and also on capitalist ones. Some countries are easier than others, but I checked that it could be done :D. That doesn't mean you can do it in one term though.

[Wolfsun]

The problem with capitalism is that the 1% take all the money and convince the 99% they just have to work harder.

.
To answer your 1st statement

High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2021, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.4 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI (that's hardly all the money) and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes.Mar 13, 2024

Link: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=USA+what+%25+of+total+tax+revenue+is+paid+by+the+top+1%25+of+taxpayers%3F


Hardly seems fair to me that that the top 1% pays 45.8% of all federal income taxes and the bottom half only paid 2.3%.

"Working Harder" = probably true a 100 years ago but not now. The narrative now is work smarter not harder. I'm retired, comfortably. Didn't get there by working harder. Got there by working smarter. Think about that.

[LyghtWayve]

Originally posted by cliffski:

You can win on every country using socialist policies, and also on capitalist ones. Some countries are easier than others, but I checked that it could be done :D. That doesn't mean you can do it in one term though.

Great, thanks!

[LyghtWayve]

Originally posted by Wolfsun:

The problem with capitalism is that the 1% take all the money and convince the 99% they just have to work harder.

.
To answer your 1st statement

High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2021, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.4 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes.Mar 13, 2024

Hardly seems fair to me that that the top 1% pays 45.8% of all federal income taxes and the bottom half only paid 2.3%.

"Working Harder" = probably true a 100 years ago but not now. The narrative now is work smarter not harder. I'm retired, comfortably. Didn't get there by working harder. Got there by working smarter. Think about that.

Good points.

Your analysis omits several key points. The wealth of the top 1% does not materialize out of nothing, it's created by the 99%. When Dell, Gates, Bezos, etc. or other billionaires run their company, they don't do all the work and create all the value. Their workers create that value and wealth. Also, the 1% create policies that limit the 99%'s ability to access the value that the 99% create. If Bezos, Dell, etc. did all that work themselves to create their wealth, no problem. However, extracting wealth from their workers doesn't mean that someone is self-made.

[Wolfsun]

Man! Karl Marx is applauding you as I write this, LyteWayve. (and that's not a good thing)

Company owners (clue - are the stockholders) For example Zuckerberg who owns Meta only owns 13% of the company - which does happen to make him the majority stock holder but hardly makes him the primary decision maker - which he is, however, because he's very very smart and very, very good at what he does (clue - and what he does was earned not given). Huh? Wonder who owns all the rest. Anyone (with some exceptions) can buy stock in any publicly traded company they wish. Imagine that. Workers can become company owners (ummmm - capitalists - too.) Poor Mark Zuckerberg. Started out as a dating app creator in college and thru SMART work turned it into the empire he owns today. Wow! Think he could have done that in a socialist system? Be honest now. You don't need my help with figuring that out. You figure it out.

As for your implied contention that workers are being extorted; wrong, so very, very wrong. They are paid at a rate demanded by the labor market (supply and demand - works for labor just like it works for everything else). Anyone not getting paid what they think they're worth is free to look for another job or even start their own company - Zuckerberg did just that and look where he is today. There are other examples like Bill Gates, Bezos, and more - google Billionaires that started out with nothing.

Here's a suggestion for you. Go buy a university level basic economics text and a comparative economics system text and read 'em in your spare time. Open both your mind and your eyes to reality and stop spewing the left wing fantasy world heart strings grabbing kool-ade they sell to the <fill in personality type of your choice here>. The world just isn't built like that.

Like I said before - you've got a good heart, LyteWayve but unfortunately good hearts didn't build today's world; what they did do do however is make it possible for the wealth that exists because of the efforts and work of real men and woment that have the drive, energy and ambition working in the real world to create opportunities for those that like the men you seem to despise so much did. Opportunities open doors. It takes a special type of person with smarts and courage to open the door, walk thru it and seize the things they want.

That said: We need good hearted men and women to remind us all of all the good mankind can do but we also need - even more so IMHO - hearts grounded in reality that actually make things happen.

Here's to your good heart LyteWayve and here's to mine firmly grounded in reality.

[LyghtWayve]

Originally posted by Wolfsun:

Man! Karl Marx is applauding you as I write this, LyteWayve. (and that's not a good thing)

Company owners (clue - are the stockholders) For example Zuckerberg who owns Meta only owns 13% of the company - which does happen to make him the majority stock holder but hardly makes him the primary decision maker - which he is, however, because he's very very smart and very, very good at what he does (clue - and what he does was earned not given). Huh? Wonder who owns all the rest. Anyone (with some exceptions) can buy stock in any publicly traded company they wish. Imagine that. Workers can become company owners (ummmm - capitalists - too.) Poor Mark Zuckerberg. Started out as a dating app creator in college and thru SMART work turned it into the empire he owns today. Wow! Think he could have done that in a socialist system? Be honest now. You don't need my help with figuring that out. You figure it out.

As for your implied contention that workers are being extorted; wrong, so very, very wrong. They are paid at a rate demanded by the labor market (supply and demand - works for labor just like it works for everything else). Anyone not getting paid what they think they're worth is free to look for another job or even start their own company - Zuckerberg did just that and look where he is today. There are other examples like Bill Gates, Bezos, and more - google Billionaires that started out with nothing.

Here's a suggestion for you. Go buy a university level basic economics text and a comparative economics system text and read 'em in your spare time. Open both your mind and your eyes to reality and stop spewing the left wing fantasy world heart strings grabbing kool-ade they sell to the <fill in personality type of your choice here>. The world just isn't built like that.

Like I said before - you've got a good heart, LyteWayve but unfortunately good hearts didn't build today's world; what they did do do however is make it possible for the wealth that exists because of the efforts and work of real men and woment that have the drive, energy and ambition working in the real world to create opportunities for those that like the men you seem to despise so much did. Opportunities open doors. It takes a special type of person with smarts and courage to open the door, walk thru it and seize the things they want.

That said: We need good hearted men and women to remind us all of all the good mankind can do but we also need - even more so IMHO - hearts grounded in reality that actually make things happen.

Here's to your good heart LyteWayve and here's to mine firmly grounded in reality.

I think you make many good points. For example, I like the fact that if you can create a product or service that is highly valued, you can make good money. One of the strengths of Capitalism, I think, is the constant innovation that it tends to support. I think that's great and that's something I see a lot in Capitalistic systems. So please understand, I don't dislike Capitalism. I just don't think it's perfect and I think it has some strengths and weaknesses.

For example, I don't like the fact that every 20 to 30 years, Capitalism crashes and governments - the people - have to bail out the rich and wealthy. In a truly capitalistic system, the markets would be final and if massive companies fail so be it. Of course, that doesn't happen because society and the entire economy would crash so governments step in. I just wish there was more honesty about that rather than give the impression that these valiant Capitalists are doing so well and everyone is winning.

As I said, I think you are right about a lot of what you said - especially about the fact that smarts and courage can do a lot for you. I honestly do think hard work pays off. I just also think that there are always ways society can improve. Capitalism is one way of organizing an economy successfully. Who knows, in 100 years we may come up with an even better way. I think that's possible.

[Wolfsun]

LyteWave I have to wonder what level of education you have risen to, what you chose to specialize in (your major) and where you attended university, assuming you did/have if you wouldn't mind saying. If you are now working for a living, what do you do? Spill the beans and I will reciprocate. I'm gonna throw this right out there and say I'll bet both of us have a pretty good idea where each is coming from though due to my advanced age you may be surprised by me. Or, maybe NOT.

[LyghtWayve]

Originally posted by Wolfsun:

LyteWave I have to wonder what level of education you have risen to, what you chose to specialize in (your major) and where you attended university, assuming you did/have if you wouldn't mind saying. If you are now working for a living, what do you do? Spill the beans and I will reciprocate. I'm gonna throw this right out there and say I'll bet both of us have a pretty good idea where each is coming from though due to my advanced age you may be surprised by me. Or, maybe NOT.

I have a bachelors in business management. I do stats for small company. I went to Georgia Southern. Nothing spectacular. Just your average joe really.

I just read the news, watch some history shows, and read a few books on different subjects. I am no expert though. I like learning but don't have time to do as much as I would like.

[Padelboot]

Originally posted by LyghtWayve:

I am implementing socialist policies such as funding for school, healthcare, etc. which should result in a healthier and more intelligent populace able to get better jobs or to otherwise stimulate the economy. Yet it seems to be driving me to cut corporate taxes to stimulate GDP.

I am hoping the simulation is dynamic enough such that different economic models and approaches can work. I don't want to be forced to just do a cater-to-the-rich approach.

What you are describing is moderate, standard-european social democracy of the late 20th century. And yes, it works pretty well in the game. I would argue it might be the easiest, since it allows you appease a whole bunch of voter groups without angering the others too much and allows you to create good business atmosphere, while still ensuring the welfare of regular people.
It's also fairly moderate, so little danger of running into assassination attempts (which are already pretty rare compared to Democracy 3). ^^

If you want to go more socialist, I would recommend the cooperative commonwealth mod in the Steam workshop, which adds a lot of cooperative-oriented policies, allowing you to go a more syndicalist approach.

Generally the game allowes for a variety of political approaches, which I very much appreciate, since I love roleplaying with different political philosophies. Some are more difficult, obviously, but they can be done. Always remember that sometimes you have to slowly change the compositiob of voter groups, before doing any big moves. It would be bold, but politically unsound to just go full religious state, if roughly 60% of the country consider themselves liberal and only roughly 10% as hugely religious. ;)

Originally posted by Wolfsun:

A wise man or maybe a woman once said, "If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain'. That's really true. When I was young I was very liberal (not like the radical lefties are today) I was a classic liberal not the liberal as defined by the demonrats of today. Look up Classic Liberal to see what that means - you won't regret the effort.

That would be Winston Churchill, except he didn't use the term liberal. He specifically said socialist. And he also never was a socialist himself, so... he practically admitted he was heartless. "Classical liberalism" is merely known as liberalism pretty much everywhere, except for the US (and perhaps Canada?). No idea why the colonies are so weird about the term nowadays. At least in western europe liberal means pro free-market first and maybe a little bit progressive in social issues second (but not always).

[Hyjaxe]

Originally posted by Wolfsun:

The problem with capitalism is that the 1% take all the money and convince the 99% they just have to work harder.

.
To answer your 1st statement

High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2021, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.4 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI (that's hardly all the money) and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes.Mar 13, 2024

Link: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=USA+what+%25+of+total+tax+revenue+is+paid+by+the+top+1%25+of+taxpayers%3F


Hardly seems fair to me that that the top 1% pays 45.8% of all federal income taxes and the bottom half only paid 2.3%.

"Working Harder" = probably true a 100 years ago but not now. The narrative now is work smarter not harder. I'm retired, comfortably. Didn't get there by working harder. Got there by working smarter. Think about that.

You're leaving out a very important number in that equation. Those 1% make, on average, over $800,000 MORE than the average middle class American (Average - and .01% of that 1% make nearly or over $1 billion/yr). Look up the income disparity in the US, it frightening.

Those 1% folks, effectively take 30 cents on every dollar in the US. And 813 of those 1% easily clear over $1 billion/yr.

Big numbers is what throws people off I think (American education system). If you made $1 a second, it would take you 11 days to make $1 million. To make a billion? It would take over 32 YEARS. It's why guys like Bernie Sanders talk about how a Billionaire shouldn't even exist. It only pours gasoline on the problems that Capitalism already has.

[Buffoonery]

Thank goodness for rational people in here. I was going to go on a rant towards Wolfsun and his victimization of the rich. Proportional taxation is much more fair than flat taxes, simply on the fact that rich people have much more disposable income.

If you are poor, 20% can be "no dinner tonight". If you are rich that is, "oh, I guess I can't buy that 10th car I wanted." There is no possible way for a human being to work 200-300x as much as a regular full time worker. If instead of working 40 hours, you work 80 hours, why should they get 12,000 hours worth of pay for that week?

It's simply because Capital is used rather than their actual worth of Labour. It's the reason that Hawk Tuah is a millionaire while soldiers are literally dying so they can get an education.

[Råb!d]

I saw a quote about the top 800 billionaires in the USA own about 50% of the wealth.

800 people own 1/2 the wealth?!

I'm curious if or how the game recognizes that kind of disparity.