Why did this game die?

[loken]

Isnt it the first big VR MMO? what happened?

[dr_zampolit]

Never said I was. We're just having fun since some don't realize they are even less so and keep replying.

[ReaperOne1Two2]

Originally posted by Czaele:

Originally posted by TryHard + LBJ:

(a bunch of yelling at Segatron)

Nah, Segatron is a bit over half-right, and you don't have to buy a game to have an opinion on it, some of us religiously followed the Discord, Kickstarter, wikis, and blog in the hopes that Zenith would improve (it never did.)
Researching a game before buying it is a massive virtue that I wish more vidya fans would do, too many people buy crap games on impulse then wonder why more crap games get made.

Anyway, cross-platform in a VRMMO would help immensely. VR is tiring, and MMOs are long, and VR as a hobby in general can be pricey.
If the game had PC support (IIRC they were going to do it, but canceled), then a VR player who gets tired can hop on PC instead and keep playing, or PC players without VR can hop in and play the game as-is, padding out the playercounts and keeping the game alive for longer, as well as help fund the game long-term, especially since VR as a whole kinda slumped after Facebook tanked the industry when they chucked like 50 billion dollars into the "metaverse" only to get maybe a hundred users total, ever.
Having a non-VR version of the game would've saved them from that, at least partially, it's that whole "don't put all your eggs in one basket" thing, so when FB ruined their "basket", they had nothing left.

I'm actually kinda shocked the other VRMMOs are still up, like Orbus, Oathbreakers, and Ilysia. I mean Oathbreakers has stalled pretty bad and I think the dev's outright gone, but that was just one dude with no help and the game's Oculus exclusive with unlimited open PVP and a shockingly complex magic system, so it's not that surprising, the game was always going to be unstable and niche.

Orbus surprises me that they haven't killed it off fully.

Oathbreakers is probably fully free to host if he's on Unity, since they offer some decent amount of free software hosting and with how he has the game structured with the smaller player base. Their main issue is they made it too much like older MMORPGs.

[Czaele]

I thought I was getting lumped under the "private accounts" thing here, but IIRC this account's set to public. (I think?)
But for real, the only reason I got pulled into Discussions for a game I once planned on buying but instead watched die and will never play is because I was subbed to a thread here that someone necro'd only recently.

Still though, you don't NEED to buy a game to have an opinion on it, it's our job as consumers to look into a potential purchase and decide if we want to buy it or not. We're not just walking piggybanks that chuck money at things on a whim, completely blind, and Steam's 2-hour return window is too short to justify trying something as long as an MMO, where it might take several days/weeks of gameplay to "figure it out". Plus anyone who plays an MMO and quits 2 hours in would just get ridiculed for not playing it long enough and their opinion would be discarded regardless.

As a smart consumer that hates wasting money, I was in the Discord and followed the Kickstarter and blog for at least a year before the game came out and I followed the development (mostly waiting for "the other classes" to get announced), then watched as the game's release ended up being a trainwreck for nearly a full month straight. Then I watched the game's changelogs, waiting to see if something pops up that interests me, but mostly all there was was a handful of bugfixes, hardly even any announcements of long-term goals to get me interested, the best they could do for "long term goals" was defend themselves against backers who wanted their rewards implemented, stating that it's coming, or coming soon, that kind of stuff.
Anyone that wanted more than two classes were yelled at, "look at the subclasses", they'd say. Someone complains the ninja class is too similar to the blademaster class, and they're yelled at too "this is an ANIME game", they'd say.
Several months after release, nothing stood out to me, the game was starting to get that "huddled together protecting themselves against all criticism and call any differing opinions 'trolling'" vibes.
Dunno if it's a sunk cost fallacy thing, or if people really, REALLY liked Sword Art Online, but the Discord was getting unusable and the game was stalling pretty hard, having to slap together cobbled-together dungeons that people would beat in the first hour of release, or having to change what little the mechanical ninja class thing had going for it because the devs couldn't figure out how to get some stuff working.

Either way, after that I left, but stayed subbed to the blog newsletter, and stayed wishlisted on Steam, but really, nothing ever stood out to me, ever. Journalists stopped caring about the game, the playercounts dropped, done.
Even now I'm still subbed to the newsletter and I think I've still got the game on my wishlist (might have to double-check thanks to the f2p split though).
If I HAD bought the game, I'd be in the same problem as everyone else, sitting in a dying game with hardly any content updates and I'd be down the, what, $40? $30?

(Truth be told, I might've bought it for Christmas or something during a sale with gift card money out of curiosity to at least play for the 2 hour return window, but then my grandma's dementia got really bad and so I spent most of my time taking care of her, unable to play VR games at all until a few months ago when she passed.)
(Still though, even that was not a guarantee, I only buy games when I'm sure I'll play them for a long time, and Zenith never showed me anything that'd really sink its hooks into me.)

(Uh, it's probably obvious, but I used to write a lot, sorry for the super long, probably irrelevant post. I actually wrote a 200k word text game once just for giggles.)

[ArchGamer]

What I found was the Dev team was more interested in working on a new mechanic they were obsessed with, rather than giving the community what it was asking for, pets and fishing, cosmetics. Those were implemented with a half heart, and when the entire mechanics were reworked due to how godstones were tied into some of the lag issues with the game, it failed due to dev interest rather than community needs. They DID eventually implement SOMETHING of what was asked for, but not after obsessing over their grapple hook and ruining the game in the process. It has been since fixed but the community has been assassinated in the sense the dev team quit the game. UNLESS someone comes along and buys it, and continues the game of their own volition..... And good luck getting anything of secrets from devs.

[KodaiRyu]

Originally posted by ArchGamer:

What I found was the Dev team was more interested in working on a new mechanic they were obsessed with, rather than giving the community what it was asking for, pets and fishing, cosmetics. Those were implemented with a half heart, and when the entire mechanics were reworked due to how godstones were tied into some of the lag issues with the game, it failed due to dev interest rather than community needs. They DID eventually implement SOMETHING of what was asked for, but not after obsessing over their grapple hook and ruining the game in the process. It has been since fixed but the community has been assassinated in the sense the dev team quit the game. UNLESS someone comes along and buys it, and continues the game of their own volition..... And good luck getting anything of secrets from devs.

TL;DR It exploded massively (according to Meta they got millions dollars from sales on standalone alone) and they had their sweet moment and they got too ambitious (just like Worlds Adrift devs)

[your stupid]

Occam's razor suggests that VR as a platform is simply awful and VR devs are awful. That's why the game died.

[Tomtommer]

Originally posted by Biomod:

Occam's razor suggests that VR as a platform is simply awful and VR devs are awful. That's why the game died.

That's not how Occam's razor works.

Occam's razor simply states that if there are multiple explanations/ hypotheses, one must choose the one with the least amount of assumptions and variables.

Stating VR, and VR devs, are awful is certainly not the simplest explanation.

I'd argue the simplest explanation with the least amount of variables is that the devs of Zenith spefically are not skilled enough to make what they told people they'd make.

VR as a whole has a sizeable playerbase, MMORPGs have a large enough playerbase.
Zenith had a lot of players at the start, made plenty of sales implying the hypothetical playerbase was there but they didn't want to keep playing.
The reasons they didn't want to keep playing are plenty, but in the end it all boils down to the game not being what those players either expected they'd get to play, or the devs told them they'd get to play.

Knowing the devs overpromised and underdelivered, which is a common trope for the failure of many games who rely on hype to garner attention, implies the fault for Zenith lies specifically with these developers, not with the VR market, or VR developers as a whole. (because there's a whole bunch of VR games that are excellent)

The important takeaway for players and (future) VR developers alike is that generating insane hype for a game might get people to the starting line, but it won't get them to stay in the race.
VR developers (specifically indie devs which there are plenty of in the VR space) should not bite off more than they can chew. They should set realistic expectations to their (potential) playerbase.

VR Players should stop leaning into the hype without any critical thinking.
Cautious optimism is great, because it encourages developers to push the genre as a whole, but it should be done with a realistic outlook on the level of skill of the developer.

Judge what developers do, not what they say they do.

[[TryHard] + LBJ]

Originally posted by Tomtommer:

Originally posted by Biomod:

Occam's razor suggests that VR as a platform is simply awful and VR devs are awful. That's why the game died.

That's not how Occam's razor works.

Occam's razor simply states that if there are multiple explanations/ hypotheses, one must choose the one with the least amount of assumptions and variables.

Stating VR, and VR devs, are awful is certainly not the simplest explanation.

I'd argue the simplest explanation with the least amount of variables is that the devs of Zenith spefically are not skilled enough to make what they told people they'd make.

VR as a whole has a sizeable playerbase, MMORPGs have a large enough playerbase.
Zenith had a lot of players at the start, made plenty of sales implying the hypothetical playerbase was there but they didn't want to keep playing.
The reasons they didn't want to keep playing are plenty, but in the end it all boils down to the game not being what those players either expected they'd get to play, or the devs told them they'd get to play.

Knowing the devs overpromised and underdelivered, which is a common trope for the failure of many games who rely on hype to garner attention, implies the fault for Zenith lies specifically with these developers, not with the VR market, or VR developers as a whole. (because there's a whole bunch of VR games that are excellent)

The important takeaway for players and (future) VR developers alike is that generating insane hype for a game might get people to the starting line, but it won't get them to stay in the race.
VR developers (specifically indie devs which there are plenty of in the VR space) should not bite off more than they can chew. They should set realistic expectations to their (potential) playerbase.

VR Players should stop leaning into the hype without any critical thinking.
Cautious optimism is great, because it encourages developers to push the genre as a whole, but it should be done with a realistic outlook on the level of skill of the developer.

Judge what developers do, not what they say they do.

I was wondering when you'd come in and set things straight.

[KodaiRyu]

Originally posted by Tomtommer:

Originally posted by Biomod:

Occam's razor suggests that VR as a platform is simply awful and VR devs are awful. That's why the game died.

That's not how Occam's razor works.

Occam's razor simply states that if there are multiple explanations/ hypotheses, one must choose the one with the least amount of assumptions and variables.

Stating VR, and VR devs, are awful is certainly not the simplest explanation.

I'd argue the simplest explanation with the least amount of variables is that the devs of Zenith spefically are not skilled enough to make what they told people they'd make.

VR as a whole has a sizeable playerbase, MMORPGs have a large enough playerbase.
Zenith had a lot of players at the start, made plenty of sales implying the hypothetical playerbase was there but they didn't want to keep playing.
The reasons they didn't want to keep playing are plenty, but in the end it all boils down to the game not being what those players either expected they'd get to play, or the devs told them they'd get to play.

Knowing the devs overpromised and underdelivered, which is a common trope for the failure of many games who rely on hype to garner attention, implies the fault for Zenith lies specifically with these developers, not with the VR market, or VR developers as a whole. (because there's a whole bunch of VR games that are excellent)

The important takeaway for players and (future) VR developers alike is that generating insane hype for a game might get people to the starting line, but it won't get them to stay in the race.
VR developers (specifically indie devs which there are plenty of in the VR space) should not bite off more than they can chew. They should set realistic expectations to their (potential) playerbase.

VR Players should stop leaning into the hype without any critical thinking.
Cautious optimism is great, because it encourages developers to push the genre as a whole, but it should be done with a realistic outlook on the level of skill of the developer.

Judge what developers do, not what they say they do.

This exactly, they made 1 million USD in first month and over 40 million USD in first year according Meta.

[your stupid]

Originally posted by Tomtommer:

Originally posted by Biomod:

Occam's razor suggests that VR as a platform is simply awful and VR devs are awful. That's why the game died.

That's not how Occam's razor works.

blah blah blah im dumb

lotta yapping. it's clear vr just sucks and vr devs suck.

[dr_zampolit]

Except for Alyx

[[TryHard] + LBJ]

Originally posted by Biomod:

Originally posted by Tomtommer:

That's not how Occam's razor works.

blah blah blah im dumb

lotta yapping. it's clear vr just sucks and vr devs suck.

If you can't retort someone's argument, attack their character.

I feel sorry for you.

[Allie]

Honestly as someone who worked on the games Gamemaster team this game was a lot of fun, even during the low times of updates the playerbase itself never ceased to give me a good memorable time. There was lots of potential for the game for sure and one thing which I had mentioned for quite awhile while working voluntarily for them was the fact the adding a desktop mode which was planned from the get go would have skyrocketed not only the player count but the over all financial state of RamenVR. More players = more revenue, more revenue = more wide ranged flexibility to created an even better update from the last. Its sad to see the playerbase leave the game but one things for sure I will never forget the amazing experience i had as a Gamemaster for Zenith. That is something to this day i will cherish forever. I hope RamenVR takes the experience they've learned here and continue to push forward in whatever ventures they take part of in the game development industry

[Tomtommer]

Interesting view on the problems with Zenith.
The lack of a playerbase definitely didn't help Zenith, but I think a desktop mode would not have fixed the problems the game had/ has.
I think people who wanted the desktop mode (also as a solution to the problems of the game) forget that such a mode would also mean the game now doesn't just compete with other VR MMORPGs, it would also compete with desktop MMORPGs.

Compared to other VRMMORPGs, Zenith is relatively good because, let's be honest, the bar is close to the floor for that to happen.
Zenith is a decent VR game, but very bad when compared to desktop MMORPGs.
It lacks polish, story, visuals, gameplay, art direction, skills, good combat and so on, when compared to existing desktop MMORPGs.
I truly believe it would position itself in the lowest tier if there was an MMORPG tier list that would also take VRMMORPGs into account.

Players would likely try the game (if they even do), realize it isn't very fun nor good, that there are other (free) MMORPGs which offer so much more, and instantly stop playing.

Why would any desktop player buy Zenith for 30 dollars, or even 10, when the competition is often free and SO much better.
Zenith can justify its price only because of it being a VR game, and VR gamers don't have many alternatives.

Had Zenith actually delivered fully on its promises and expectations it self for itself, MAYBE it could have been a decent game for desktop too. It was not remotely close to reaching that point when they dropped development for it though.

[Allie]

Originally posted by Tomtommer:

Interesting view on the problems with Zenith.
The lack of a playerbase definitely didn't help Zenith, but I think a desktop mode would not have fixed the problems the game had/ has.
I think people who wanted the desktop mode (also as a solution to the problems of the game) forget that such a mode would also mean the game now doesn't just compete with other VR MMORPGs, it would also compete with desktop MMORPGs.

Compared to other VRMMORPGs, Zenith is relatively good because, let's be honest, the bar is close to the floor for that to happen.
Zenith is a decent VR game, but very bad when compared to desktop MMORPGs.
It lacks polish, story, visuals, gameplay, art direction, skills, good combat and so on, when compared to existing desktop MMORPGs.
I truly believe it would position itself in the lowest tier if there was an MMORPG tier list that would also take VRMMORPGs into account.

Players would likely try the game (if they even do), realize it isn't very fun nor good, that there are other (free) MMORPGs which offer so much more, and instantly stop playing.

Why would any desktop player buy Zenith for 30 dollars, or even 10, when the competition is often free and SO much better.
Zenith can justify its price only because of it being a VR game, and VR gamers don't have many alternatives.

Had Zenith actually delivered fully on its promises and expectations it self for itself, MAYBE it could have been a decent game for desktop too. It was not remotely close to reaching that point when they dropped development for it though.

Personally I feel like not giving the promised desktop mode was where the down spiraling had started to become more prominant, a promised feature constantly being said it would eventually be releasing for a few years after launch then completely scrapped outta nowhere. This causes the playerbase to lose trust in the development teams of their respected games and can most definitely drive people away from it as a whole. Its just another situation where too much was promised and never delivered.