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Haya Jul 3, 2021 @ 5:40am

Remake, but still no female protagonist

Even with a remake four years later, it's still not possible to play as a female character even though the protagonist has no personality whatsoever and it's a dating sim.
Way to make a remake...

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Originally posted by Nert:

Originally posted by Haya:
As I said, the author wouldn't have to rewrite the story

Third time pointing out this is false.

The entire setting is that MC is an unlikeable, lazy, inconsiderate loser whose hope and dream is being in a club full of lonely girls too socially awkward to talk to boys outside of their club and oh look, he's the only one! He completely lacks any good qualities, puts in no effort, and is banking on that being compensated for by lack of any other options for the girls. That is directly the trope that's being attacked. The same setup doesn't work if MC is just the 5th girl in a group of 5.

Natsuki in particular in nearly all of her scenes outlines how differently she treats MC because he's a boy. Her worldview of boys is shaped entirely by her manga. There's an entire scene and CG dedicated to her accusing MC of being a pervert and trying to peek up her skirt purely because he's male. Her weekend scene is her saying boys shouldn't treat girls nicely unless they ~really~ like them. She's bullied and ridiculed by her female friends outside of the club, looked down on by those in the club, and MC is something new, because he's a boy. In no way is any of this painted positively, she's fully sold on toxic tropes and her pinning hopes on MC being a white knight in shining armour is clearly unhealthy, her jealous reactions to the other girls because MC is present highlights this too, but that is how people can be affected by them, and the game is shining a spotlight on that.

Natsuki's entire character is someone heavily pressured by society's expectations and stereotypes, demonstrating how negative that effect has been on her but she feels forced to let it happen, and how dependant she is on the escapism her manga gives her, and how it's influenced her approach to MC because he's a boy. (You can argue there may also be a factor in her father, though that depends on whether or not act 2's reveals have truth or not which is up for debate)

One of DDLC's core strengths is how complex and human its characters and their problems are beneath the saccharine trashy harem setting, and this shouldn't be so easily dismissed. It isn't a datesim in reality, and it isn't just a shock jumpscare game either, the struggles, particularly Sayori's depression are very vividly written and are in no small part why the game is loved by so many for how it touched them.

The game sucks you in going "look at all these cute girls desperate to love you!" and then hits you with their all-too-real, deep-seated issues and insecurities instead. Their reasons for being so desperate to love MC are highlighted in all their ugly detail, in no way are any of these good things that have happened to them all.

You could write a Natsuki struggling with feelings for a female MC (who would also need actual qualities to be more likeable than the other 3), while her bullying friends loudly expect heterosexuality instead, but that's what that is; a total rewrite of her and her scenes, needing to be an entire route separate to a male MC, and a departure from the entire concept of the game. Impossible to write? No. Effortless to change? Also no.

Expecting all settings and stories to remain exactly the same if you flip genders means pretending that those of different genders or sexualities never ever face situations or problems due to them, not just those you flip but of those who interact with them too. Challenging gender norms can absolutely be a good thing! Pretending they don't exist and trying to remove them from from a game that uses them to actually challenge them in it's own way, is backwards.

Originally posted by Haya:
You don't see a point or a reward for a female version because I guess you're part of the straight guys whose sex and sexuality always has a shinning role in video games

You are not the MC, the MC is not you, the MC does not represent you, or any of us, male, female or anything else. There IS no reward for them, or for you being them. They join a club they have no interest in, awkwardly lick a girl's finger then cause their best friend's death before having their mind rewritten and getting slowly deleted from existence.

So, y'know, not the best first date..

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Showing 1-15 of 129 comments

Kloud Jul 3, 2021 @ 6:09am

...If you're a female IRL...you are a female protagonist! [SPOILERS] Monika admits she doesn't know whether or not you're a male or female behind the computer screen.

Stigma

Jul 3, 2021 @ 6:13am

Originally posted by Sushi Babe:
...If you're a female IRL...you are a female protagonist! [SPOILERS] Monika admits she doesn't know whether or not you're a male or female behind the computer screen.

Correct. The MC is a blank slate who doesn't really exist according to the creator

euby

Jul 3, 2021 @ 7:10am

since when is this a remake ??

dorkenstein Jul 3, 2021 @ 7:12am

Originally posted by Haya:
Even with a remake four years later, it's still not possible to play as a female character even though the protagonist has no personality whatsoever and it's a dating sim.
Way to make a remake...

so you want the PC to be gendered instead of ungendered? sounds misandrist to me

BROLY 32

Jul 3, 2021 @ 8:20am

The story wouldn't work if the MC wasn't male, a boy entering that group with only girls so far is what sets everything into motion.
As for your irl sex, it's clearly taken into account since Monika states she doesn't care if you're a boy or a girl.

Haya Jul 3, 2021 @ 11:50am

Originally posted by Sushi Babe:
...If you're a female IRL...you are a female protagonist! [SPOILERS] Monika admits she doesn't know whether or not you're a male or female behind the computer screen.

Originally posted by Stigma:
Correct. The MC is a blank slate who doesn't really exist according to the creator

Originally posted by ZBS:
so you want the PC to be gendered instead of ungendered? sounds misandrist to me

Originally posted by BROLY 32:
The story wouldn't work if the MC wasn't male, a boy entering that group with only girls so far is what sets everything into motion.
As for your irl sex, it's clearly taken into account since Monika states she doesn't care if you're a boy or a girl.

To all of you, the MC isn't ungendered. It's referred to as male by all the other characters. And since, as you said, the protagonist is a blank slate that's supposed to represent the player behind the screen, why not make a version that's referred to as female by all the other characters? It changes nothing to the protagonist or the story, and includes women that don't have to play as a male character for some reason.
Also, it's not that the MC sets everything in motion by being male, it's because it's the avatar of the player (aka not a game character). The story works regardless of the protagonist gender.

BROLY 32

Jul 3, 2021 @ 12:03pm

Originally posted by Haya:
The story works regardless of the protagonist gender.

I don't think so, especially after going through the side stories.
If you haven't played it, I don't wanna spoil anything, but there's a lot of emphasis on accepting differences.
Adding a boy inside a group of teenage girls changes a lot more things than adding a 5th girl.

𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪 has Doki Doki Literature Club Plus!

Jul 3, 2021 @ 12:24pm

If the MC doesn't actually matter then it should be interchangeable between genders/sexes.

Shelbs

Jul 3, 2021 @ 12:27pm

Making the MC a girl just wouldn't work though - DDLC is explicitly a riff on dating sims aimed at men. The tropes, treatment of the girls in the first act, and way the MC talks are all evidence of that. It just wouldn't be an effective artistic statement otherwise.

Haya Jul 3, 2021 @ 1:26pm

Originally posted by EpycWyn:
:PlusOneClick:
If the MC doesn't actually matter then it should be interchangeable between genders/sexes.

The MC's gender doesn't matter to the story, but it does to the reader. If you're supposed to *be* the MC (and not identify with a full-fleshed character), why be referred to as male if you can be referred to as female, when you're a woman yourself?

Originally posted by BROLY 32:
I don't think so, especially after going through the side stories.
If you haven't played it, I don't wanna spoil anything, but there's a lot of emphasis on accepting differences.
Adding a boy inside a group of teenage girls changes a lot more things than adding a 5th girl.

I haven't read the side stories, but even then, I don't think the gender of the character should matter. Characters' gender rarely really matter in stories, at least much less than we think. As you said, emphasis is put on accepting differences, but that difference doesn't have to be gender. It's too old-fashioned to say that all girls are the same and that only a boy would bring a change of pace. I believe that a female protagonist different in whatever aspect would work just fine. You can make a tomboy that clashes with the other feminine characters, for example.

Originally posted by Shelbs:
Making the MC a girl just wouldn't work though - DDLC is explicitly a riff on dating sims aimed at men. The tropes, treatment of the girls in the first act, and way the MC talks are all evidence of that. It just wouldn't be an effective artistic statement otherwise.

Yeah, I know that, and it's probably the best argument not to make a female counterpart to the protagonist. But it's a remake and pretty much everyone knows that. If anything, you can make an in-game notice to keep in mind that DDLC was presented as a parody of a male-targeted dating sim. That parodic aspect isn't worth being referred to as male for the entire VN though.

#10

Nert

Jul 3, 2021 @ 1:39pm

Originally posted by Haya:
The MC's gender doesn't matter to the story, but it does to the reader. If you're supposed to *be* the MC (and not identify with a full-fleshed character), why be referred to as male if you can be referred to as female, when you're a woman yourself?

You aren't meant to be the MC

#11

Baal

Jul 3, 2021 @ 1:55pm

oh my god shut the hell up and play a different game, not every game needs to be politically correct or inclusive. the story was made this way and it's the artistic vision of the creator. your word will change nothing. if you want to be mad do it on twitter. peace

#12

Stigma

Jul 3, 2021 @ 1:59pm

Originally posted by 雪乃 Lukyfan 🌸:
oh my god shut the hell up and play a different game, not every game needs to be politically correct or inclusive. the story was made this way and it's the artistic vision of the creator. your word will change nothing. if you want to be mad do it on twitter. peace

+100

#13

Haya Jul 3, 2021 @ 2:11pm

Originally posted by 雪乃 Lukyfan 🌸:
oh my god shut the hell up and play a different game, not every game needs to be politically correct or inclusive. the story was made this way and it's the artistic vision of the creator. your word will change nothing. if you want to be mad do it on twitter. peace

Sure, but most games aren't and I don't think including 50% of the population in a game that's supposed to be for everyone is too much to ask for, especially if it doesn't change the story one bit.