Whats the point of Bree

[OneStopBopShop]

Whats the point of Bree when a chunk of enemies will just eat or take her thorns?? Why would do I even bother to try to make her work?? I can just play any other warrior.

[Xararion]

Bree is very good utility character on her support build and at least on lower madness levels performs pretty okay as a tank, but really her biggest benefits are on the "skill" card boosting side of her level ups. Getting her with lot of skills like battle shout and other similar abilities can make the rest of the team better. She won't be as damage or defence oriented as the other warriors, but she is very good enabler of other characters in the party, especially if itemized for it.

[ShadowFox]

Originally posted by OneStopBopShop:

Whats the point of Bree when a chunk of enemies will just eat or take her thorns?? Why would do I even bother to try to make her work?? I can just play any other warrior.

She is the best character for support builds like grinding wheel, battle shout etc. Her thorn builds are unmatched and she oddly enough can be an insane healer

[Sydrian]

You can make most play strategies work with 'most' characters when the madness levels are below 8. Madness 9 higher, and you'll need to make higher efficiency kits that better utilize the strengths the characters focus on to reliably get through a run.

As a suggestion for a common and usually enjoyed/celebrated warrior kit to run on Bree, Re-do your perk loadout and focus on a build using the cracked status effect. You'll 'probably' have a good time. Almost everyone enjoys playing crack Bree when they figure it out; You'll know you're doing it right when you win almost every fight on turn 1 or 2.

Shadow's definitely right too. Bree is great at improving the rest of the Team's functionality.

If you're looking to make thorns work, look for items involving vitality and / or thorns. I believe there are lots of items that give you vitality every turn/when you get hit, and there are also cards that will give you thorns when you gain vitality.

Have fun.

[Sydrian]

Also, if you get a vitality build that takes off, use demolish, yellow upgrade; Everyone likes whackus bonkus. ;)

[EggNog]

Thorns is a bad mechanic in general, for player characters at least. Think of it like those dungeons and dragons spells that make zero sense for a player to use: they exist so the DM can use them. Thorns is very much the same concept. Player-usable cards that utilize thorns or scale off it are simply inefficient for even intensive resource investment and specialized builds, and no matter how much you try, thorns has one crippling drawback you can do nothing about: its main application is entirely contingent on enemies hitting you , which not only requires damage mitigation and healing, but you have zero control over how frequently enemies do so (meaning enemies that spend their turn applying buffs do not activate thorns).

That being said, Bree can be both a versatile support and a devastating damage dealer. None of those builds, however, involve thorns, which basically just exists as a noob trap (or learning opportunity, if you're being optimistic).

[Sydrian]

Originally posted by EggNog:

Thorns is a bad mechanic in general, for player characters at least. Think of it like those dungeons and dragons spells that make zero sense for a player to use: they exist so the DM can use them. Thorns is very much the same concept. Player-usable cards that utilize thorns or scale off it are simply inefficient for even intensive resource investment and specialized builds, and no matter how much you try, thorns has one crippling drawback you can do nothing about: its main application is entirely contingent on enemies hitting you , which not only requires damage mitigation and healing, but you have zero control over how frequently enemies do so (meaning enemies that spend their turn applying buffs do not activate thorns).

That being said, Bree can be both a versatile support and a devastating damage dealer. None of those builds, however, involve thorns, which basically just exists as a noob trap (or learning opportunity, if you're being optimistic).

Respectfully, I disagree, you can make 'almost anything' work on almost anyone. I do concede absolutely, that the practicality of doing really weird things or focusing on making things perceived to be noob traps, like building fury on mages for example (which is very tricky to do well) Is pretty limited. That said, my example of fury on mages is hilarious and massive damage output once you do it right.

Thorns is much more items than anything else when it comes to building it up and usually cashing it out is best done with specific cards that draw on the full amount and also it's preferable to convert its output element to something that isn't piercing (usually holy or poison) since piercing physical damage is very ineffective against most late game targets. and in my experience if you want it to work you have to marry it to the vitality stuff, and push for the item that gives you thorns from vitality.

It makes for a very specific build that can be costly to assemble and can also restrict your quest path. Almost no one goes for the ruby armor(+vitality when you receive hits) or straw hat.

I think totally maxed out items/perk benefits, you can get 12 vitality(+30/60 Current/MaxHP on higher madness, +60/+60 on lower madness) per hit you receive from an enemy, and with a decent amount of mitigation in place, that means you can actually GAIN hp whenever anything hits you, particularly if it's an enemy with lots of small damage strikes.

[EggNog]

Originally posted by Sydrian:

Originally posted by EggNog:

Thorns is a bad mechanic in general, for player characters at least. Think of it like those dungeons and dragons spells that make zero sense for a player to use: they exist so the DM can use them. Thorns is very much the same concept. Player-usable cards that utilize thorns or scale off it are simply inefficient for even intensive resource investment and specialized builds, and no matter how much you try, thorns has one crippling drawback you can do nothing about: its main application is entirely contingent on enemies hitting you , which not only requires damage mitigation and healing, but you have zero control over how frequently enemies do so (meaning enemies that spend their turn applying buffs do not activate thorns).

That being said, Bree can be both a versatile support and a devastating damage dealer. None of those builds, however, involve thorns, which basically just exists as a noob trap (or learning opportunity, if you're being optimistic).

Respectfully, I disagree, you can make 'almost anything' work on almost anyone. I do concede absolutely, that the practicality of doing really weird things or focusing on making things perceived to be noob traps, like building fury on mages for example (which is very tricky to do well) Is pretty limited. That said, my example of fury on mages is hilarious and massive damage output once you do it right.

Thorns is much more items than anything else when it comes to building it up and usually cashing it out is best done with specific cards that draw on the full amount and also it's preferable to convert its output element to something that isn't piercing (usually holy or poison) since piercing physical damage is very ineffective against most late game targets. and in my experience if you want it to work you have to marry it to the vitality stuff, and push for the item that gives you thorns from vitality.

It makes for a very specific build that can be costly to assemble and can also restrict your quest path. Almost no one goes for the ruby armor(+vitality when you receive hits) or straw hat.

I think totally maxed out items/perk benefits, you can get 12 vitality(+30/60 Current/MaxHP on higher madness, +60/+60 on lower madness) per hit you receive from an enemy, and with a decent amount of mitigation in place, that means you can actually GAIN hp whenever anything hits you, particularly if it's an enemy with lots of small damage strikes.

Likewise, I respect your thoughts on the matter, but I've been on every singleplayer global highscore board category at one point, and if a build ceases to clear act 1, let alone function, in difficulties where you aren't working with functionally limitless resources via rewards chests and resource exchange, it more than qualifies as a noob trap in my book.

Fury is also not a great example of a "niche" strategy because it can be transferred freely to any class via Transfusion + Burning Blood, and any number of bleed cards, limited only in higher difficulties by your ability to roll a second copy of Transfusion from divinations.

[Sydrian]

I'm the sort of player who usually doesn't push high madness for the same reasons I don't run high difficulties when comp stomping Ai in RTS games. For me, it feels like it is less about strategy as madness climbs; It is however also, almost impossible (for developers) to maintain flexibility in viable strategy options when you start turning difficulties up in just about every strategy game.

I typically draw the line on difficulty when the amount of available strategies begins to sharply break down to inflexible limitations. When it starts to feel like mechanical application of less than a handful of choices and not an exercise that creative problem solving can defeat, I quickly lose interest; That isn't to say that I expect every strategy to work in every game against everything.

[WEF CENSORSHIP 2030 FTW!!!]

The True Noob Trap is not getting First Turn always in Highest Madness and you only need One Item for that and One Card on the Fastest Scout to fix the rest of the Party.

The Problem with both Vitality and Thorns is that they are Heavily Gear Dependent which translates into RNG reliance. Unless you are Yogger i would not bother with Vitality Builds ever out of Efficiency in Madness 8+.

The Best Bree and Yogger Builds are Skill Builds ( Wolf Debuffs and Shouts ).

Madness 8+ is not for Fun though. It's just Extreme Self Crippling to simulate Difficulty and force Specific Meta Play, so the RNG Aspect only becomes an Extreme Hindrance instead of Entertaining. It is the same thing as adding 99999999 HP to a Trash Mob in RPGs and calling it Difficulty.

[Jman]

I didn't go into madness(so I am guessing that changes things) but Magnus and the golem(forgot name) both give reduced cost on defense cards on level up choices. Most of the thorns cards are defense. She reduces the cost of skill cards. Really confusing how she is the thorns queen when I could spam thorn/defense cards cheap on the whole party with 2 warriors and put any other role in the back. Then the boss AOEs and it is GG. Let alone with all the block built up I had 1 shield slam(I think that is the one that does damage based on block without purging it) and drop 200+ damage hits pretty early in the rounds. I only scratched the surface of the game but it was the easiest and smoothest game I had. I never even wanted to play Bree after unlocking her because the other 2 seem much more efficient.

[el Darkness]

Bree is much better at generating Thorns than any other character. Some of the Thorn cards are Skill cards, but cost reduction is not what matters here the most. As you might have seen, taking Tactician lvl up takes the slot of Countermeasures that is strickly Thorn related (in fact, if you are going Thorns, Countermeasures seems better in my eyes). Though she is a Thorns Queen, I would still build her for Skill/Tank/Support build, she is just amazing as a support.

[Arel]

https://imgflip.com/i/9bnhgt

[Psylisa]

Originally posted by Sydrian:

For me, it feels like it is less about strategy as madness climbs; It is however also, almost impossible (for developers) to maintain flexibility in viable strategy options when you start turning difficulties up in just about every strategy game.

I typically draw the line on difficulty when the amount of available strategies begins to sharply break down to inflexible limitations.

I have to disagree here, especially with AtO. I've beaten Madness 16 with every hero except the frog (Gustav). He's the only one that heavily relies on a few cards (the musical theme). Every other character I can "made do" without their theme.

For instance, Bree still serves as a decent tank even without Thorns simply due to the speed stat and being able to throw up defenses early on. While the main campaign game allows you to choose your strategy easily, the Obelisk/Random Mode doesn't. Gustuv is the only character that (imo) gets heavily impeded by this, and climbing up Madness difficulties really highlights it.

Moreover - what you describe as a "breakdown of inflexible limitations" is merely the crucible effect. You see it real life, with sports being a perfect example. Watch some pee wee league of whatever chosen sport you enjoy. It's a mess. But nearly ANY STRATEGY WORKS. Now move up to middle school - you get slightly more refined strategy and play. High school? Oh look, now you see the semblance of actual competition. Now hit up the Olympics. Watch the athletes. They all do things pretty much the same exact method. The High Jumpers all take a curved path to the bar, then jump over it backwards. Why? Because it's the most effective technique, and you're at the top 0.1% of the 0.1%. They use what works best. That's what higher difficulty does, and it's 100% perfectly natural.

tl;dr - if the highest difficulty could be defeated by nearly any and all strategies, are they really "strategies", and is it really "difficult"???