Thorns is just bad

[Lantric]

Tried a thorns build, and just about every fight the enemy just eats your thorns. Ended my run on the hydra boss due to every 2 rounds the rear most head eats thorns and never attacks. Compared with Burn which stacks forever and makes the game a breeze this was just frustrating and disappointing.

[iSurvivedRKelly]

Originally posted by Elvarion:

You could look into getting the last Thorns Perk so that when you get hit you dont lose charges. You still lose a charge at the end of the turn though. But it does boost the usefulness of Thorns.

But long story short, Thorns is not all that great. Since you could run other forms of damage and kill enemies before they even get to have their turn

This is the meta that I don't understand why it exists in a game like this. How can killing everything before they even get a turn be remotely fun?

[Zylo the Wolfbane]

The Swamp Zone specifically is extremely anti-thorns. Multiple enemies there can clear thorns, including the boss. Some bosses are especially strong against certain builds/elements/auras/curses etc. Swamp is pretty rough for thorns.

That said, thorns also always feels like a side thing for me. I never find it worth hard-focusing on, but it makes an excellent side thing you can invest in. Characters like Bree and Yogger can run things like Stockades and Barbed Wire cards, and if you can manage to grab things like a Heart of Thorns then you can go REAL wild on those two, Yogger especially.

[tBeNz]

Originally posted by iSurvivedRKelly:

This is the meta that I don't understand why it exists in a game like this. How can killing everything before they even get a turn be remotely fun?

Once you unlock higher madness levels, particularly 8 and above, the amount of health regen, energy, auras and curses, money and shards, that you have at your disposal becomes severely limited. Vitality grants like half as much hp, and you regen almost none between each battle.

So the most efficient way to keep your party alive is to not get hit at all. The only way to do that is to manipulate the combat in such a way that you are faster, and can either block or kill the enemy team before they hit you.

It sounds kinda lame, I guess, but trust me, the enemies cards are ALOT more powerful, than on 0 madness, and they show no mercy for those heroes whose hp is like 60. I have yet to finish madness 14 on Adventure, mostly bc I just yolo my card decks on the fly once I get to town, and completing higher madness requires a bit of planning beforehand, like which route and items you want to grab along the way.

Edit:

I wanted to also mention your problem with Thorns - When making a "build" you want to try, you should also factor in the possibility (like 100% probability), that there may be enemies that have cards specifically to counter whatever it is that you are doing.

Like, EXACTLY what your team is good at doing. They will purge evasion on the front hero, and deal damage based off of how much block your tank has while also ignoring block entirely. Some cards purge your aura's or change them to curses and deal dmg based off of how much of that aura became a curse.

So stacking a ton of ANYTHING, besides like block and shield, is generally a bad idea once you get to late game, and also why it's a GOOD idea to keep a few dispels and purges in your decks

[iSurvivedRKelly]

Originally posted by tBeNz:

Originally posted by iSurvivedRKelly:

This is the meta that I don't understand why it exists in a game like this. How can killing everything before they even get a turn be remotely fun?

Once you unlock higher madness levels, particularly 8 and above, the amount of health regen, energy, auras and curses, money and shards, that you have at your disposal becomes severely limited. Vitality grants like half as much hp, and you regen almost none between each battle.

So the most efficient way to keep your party alive is to not get hit at all. The only way to do that is to manipulate the combat in such a way that you are faster, and can either block or kill the enemy team before they hit you.

It sounds kinda lame, I guess, but trust me, the enemies cards are ALOT more powerful, than on 0 madness, and they show no mercy for those heroes whose hp is like 60. I have yet to finish madness 14 on Adventure, mostly bc I just yolo my card decks on the fly once I get to town, and completing higher madness requires a bit of planning beforehand, like which route and items you want to grab along the way.

Edit:

I wanted to also mention your problem with Thorns - When making a "build" you want to try, you should also factor in the possibility (like 100% probability), that there may be enemies that have cards specifically to counter whatever it is that you are doing.

Like, EXACTLY what your team is good at doing. They will purge evasion on the front hero, and deal damage based off of how much block your tank has while also ignoring block entirely. Some cards purge your aura's or change them to curses and deal dmg based off of how much of that aura became a curse.

So stacking a ton of ANYTHING, besides like block and shield, is generally a bad idea once you get to late game, and also why it's a GOOD idea to keep a few dispels and purges in your decks

I already unlocked all the madness levels and it still baffles me how people can find a game fun where its just your turn. I guess the best analogy for me to use would be the old punching bag line.

They don't punch back. So yeah just can't understand how it's fun. At least a punching bag serves a purpose for training but this i can't get my head around.

My brother and i literally stay clear of the meta as its just boring.

[el Darkness]

Originally posted by iSurvivedRKelly:

My brother and i literally stay clear of the meta as its just boring.

That is also a valid way to play. :)

[tBeNz]

Originally posted by el Darkness:

Originally posted by iSurvivedRKelly:

My brother and i literally stay clear of the meta as its just boring.

That is also a valid way to play. :)

Nah I 100% agree, too. Just ask my buddy I do weeklies with, lol. I'll have a 30 card deck full of high energy corrupted cards, not doing my assigned role, and he be mad as hell lol. Its cool, tho. When I randomly pull one of em at the right time, I look like a genius.

He won't let me tank or heal anymore lol. BC I can't help but grab those dmg dealing corrupted cards.

[iSurvivedRKelly]

Originally posted by tBeNz:

Originally posted by el Darkness:

That is also a valid way to play. :)

Nah I 100% agree, too. Just ask my buddy I do weeklies with, lol. I'll have a 30 card deck full of high energy corrupted cards, not doing my assigned role, and he be mad as hell lol. Its cool, tho. When I randomly pull one of em at the right time, I look like a genius.

He won't let me tank or heal anymore lol. BC I can't help but grab those dmg dealing corrupted cards.

Yeah much more fun imo, true madness levels

[Nordos/atord]

IMO one of the issues is the reward structure. You get way better rewards for fewer turns, and these can be very important. Add iin that damage healing/prevention is more expensive than denyin damage via killing ...

[ShadowFox]

Originally posted by Lantric:

Tried a thorns build, and just about every fight the enemy just eats your thorns. Ended my run on the hydra boss due to every 2 rounds the rear most head eats thorns and never attacks. Compared with Burn which stacks forever and makes the game a breeze this was just frustrating and disappointing.

Have you met bree? Thorns is insanely strong

[el Darkness]

Originally posted by PrinceShadowFox:

Have you met bree? Thorns is insanely strong

Yeah, other heroes can't really use Thorns even remotely as well as she can.

[tBeNz]

Originally posted by Nordos/atord:

IMO one of the issues is the reward structure. You get way better rewards for fewer turns, and these can be very important. Add iin that damage healing/prevention is more expensive than denyin damage via killing ...

I guess I never really thought of it like that, but yeah, not even including all the debuffs you get at high madness (little energy, less money and shards, liittle to no healing between fights), the card rewards you get to choose are way more powerful if you finish with an excellent, even getting Great isn't all that great comparatively. I wonder what type of system could be implemented so that the battles are based off of how well you play and not just how fast you finished. Could be something to ask in their discord, honestly. Might get some good responses.

[Nordos/atord]

Originally posted by tBeNz:

I wonder what type of system could be implemented so that the battles are based off of how well you play and not just how fast you finished. Could be something to ask in their discord, honestly. Might get some good responses.

IMO, the reward should not be solely based on the turn counter, but also take into consideration how much damage you get, or some other metrics.
It has always rankled me that half my party got wiped out and I got an 'excellent' ... whats excellent about loosing 2 out of my 4 characters?!

[el Darkness]

Loosing a hero during a fight should lower your rewards (since you are getting rewarded with a nice new card to his deck :D ), but receiving dmg if you are able to heal it should not. I do not know what would be best system here, speed could play a factor, but right now it is the only factor...

[White Rice]

Thorns is still viable even at madness 14+ where I normally play random chars or single themed parties.

[Psylisa]

Bree does Thorns the best, but Heiner or Magnus can do well if you get the cards.

Garden of Thorns - Excellent to spread Thorns to allies, and the Corrupt version is game-winning.

Spiked Ball - Great with Repition Training if you are damage-oriented.

Thousand Needles - Similar to Spiked Ball, but gain Defense instead of doing damage. Not my favorite pick for the 3-cost, but it adds a nice chunk of Thorns.

Stockade - My favorite pick for Thorns. 3 cost for group mitigation and Thorns. I actually like the Vanish on it, because I really only want to use it once. After it burns, I can spend the same on more defensive options while Thorns still does its work.. Pair with Last Stand or -1 Defense Cost Perks.

Barbed Wire - I dislike this card. It doesn't do enough to justify a card slot. I only take this if it's Corrupt, because it has Innate, Free, Vanish, and hits all heroes.

For me, Thorns shines in Act 4. Nearly all enemies hit your line aoe, and those 10-20 Thorns on each character add up. With decent Thorns cards, you can crank out 30+ on Turn 1 to your line. You don't even need Thorns Items/Heavy Perk investment, either.