Across the Obelisk
TakeMyLunch Sep 13, 2022 @ 7:18am
Knowing enemy cards is useless
Every enemy I've fought so far has either targeted everyone or randomly making knowing what they're doing feel extremely useless.
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Showing 16-30 of 44 comments
Psylisa Sep 21, 2022 @ 7:25am 
Originally posted by Fendelphi:
But even if the target is random, you do know that it is damage/debuffs/something else that is going to happen and you can react accordingly(Block for everyone or damage resistance for everyone. Maybe put some Buffer on an important character if you want to avoid a random debuff this round).
Sure, you can learn the patterns(on what round is each card used) and then you wont need the Sight for actually knowing what is going to happen(and only for synergies with various damage/stacking), but if you take a break for a few weeks and then come back, you dont remember all such details(well, I dont anyway. ;)) and then it is nice to fall back on until you are back in the groove(and luckily, Sight builds are quite fun and efficient to use).
The problem with this is that you need 3 things: Sight, Speed (to get ahead of the monster to be able to react), AND the correct card to react with. And that's on top of Sight not lasting per turn, but per card revealed. Enemies are going to play multiple cards, and it takes away from your own cards by playing something with Sight. It's never free, and factors into the budget of whatever card you choose to add to your deck.

I agree with the other posters - Sight just FEELS BAD. It needs a rework.

When I first started playing, I thought Sight was necessary; I learned quickly how completely unnecessary it is. Sight is a NOOB TRAP. And sure, you can build around a Sight build, but new players aren't going to have the cards/heroes/artifacts unlocked to do that.
TakeMyLunch Sep 21, 2022 @ 10:54am 
The more this discussion rages on the more I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate Sight. Keep at it dudes, maybe the devs'll see it eventually.
Psylisa Sep 21, 2022 @ 11:07am 
Originally posted by TakeMyLunch:
The more this discussion rages on the more I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate Sight. Keep at it dudes, maybe the devs'll see it eventually.
I think Sight would be MUCH better if it decayed by -1 per turn like all the other Curses and simply revealed all the cards of the monster. At least then, new players would get a decent benefit out of it. It would also give new players the chance to read cards that enemies are playing and understand the mechanics. One of the first cards you get as Andrin is typically Vigilance. In fact, I think Vigilance should be in his starting deck SOLELY for new players.
Zeel Ara Sep 21, 2022 @ 12:29pm 
Originally posted by TakeMyLunch:
The more this discussion rages on the more I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate Sight. Keep at it dudes, maybe the devs'll see it eventually.

Just think of it as a resource you use to fuel other cards and effects. That's 99% of its purpose. That it also shows the enemy actions is just a funny little side effect, but not what you're applying it for.

It's not how I would personally prefer it to be, but it is what it is.
Last edited by Zeel Ara; Sep 21, 2022 @ 12:29pm
TnJ Sep 21, 2022 @ 12:37pm 
Originally posted by TakeMyLunch:
The more this discussion rages on the more I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate Sight. Keep at it dudes, maybe the devs'll see it eventually.

I'm going to disagree with you forever but I've got to respect the pun work.
HAWAIIANpikachu Sep 21, 2022 @ 12:48pm 
Originally posted by Psylisa:
Originally posted by Fendelphi:
But even if the target is random, you do know that it is damage/debuffs/something else that is going to happen and you can react accordingly(Block for everyone or damage resistance for everyone. Maybe put some Buffer on an important character if you want to avoid a random debuff this round).
Sure, you can learn the patterns(on what round is each card used) and then you wont need the Sight for actually knowing what is going to happen(and only for synergies with various damage/stacking), but if you take a break for a few weeks and then come back, you dont remember all such details(well, I dont anyway. ;)) and then it is nice to fall back on until you are back in the groove(and luckily, Sight builds are quite fun and efficient to use).
The problem with this is that you need 3 things: Sight, Speed (to get ahead of the monster to be able to react), AND the correct card to react with. And that's on top of Sight not lasting per turn, but per card revealed. Enemies are going to play multiple cards, and it takes away from your own cards by playing something with Sight. It's never free, and factors into the budget of whatever card you choose to add to your deck.

I agree with the other posters - Sight just FEELS BAD. It needs a rework.

When I first started playing, I thought Sight was necessary; I learned quickly how completely unnecessary it is. Sight is a NOOB TRAP. And sure, you can build around a Sight build, but new players aren't going to have the cards/heroes/artifacts unlocked to do that.
You can do Speed quite easily with scouts in no/early madness. (Andrin is the fastest scout and is pretty good at keeping the team fast) and reaction is pretty much how well you built your deck to deal with stuff. It's also really easy to keep sight up. The highest amount of cards 1 enemy plays is 5 cards. And most enemies only play 2-3 cards. One card can easily reveal a whole team, no thoughts required. Or you can just bring the pet that does it for you. Mana and card cost is honestly a joke mid-late game once you can consistently draw and play multiple cards easily (and sometimes your entire hand with the right equipment/traits)

Unless you alpha strike/kill standard enemies in one round consistently (in which case you can just ignore 90% of the mechanics) you definitely need sight as it makes playing around difficulties significantly easier. And it's very easy to combo around sight as well. There's plenty of stuff around it. There's even perk buffs for it.
Fendelphi Sep 21, 2022 @ 2:32pm 
Originally posted by Psylisa:
Originally posted by Fendelphi:
But even if the target is random, you do know that it is damage/debuffs/something else that is going to happen and you can react accordingly(Block for everyone or damage resistance for everyone. Maybe put some Buffer on an important character if you want to avoid a random debuff this round).
Sure, you can learn the patterns(on what round is each card used) and then you wont need the Sight for actually knowing what is going to happen(and only for synergies with various damage/stacking), but if you take a break for a few weeks and then come back, you dont remember all such details(well, I dont anyway. ;)) and then it is nice to fall back on until you are back in the groove(and luckily, Sight builds are quite fun and efficient to use).
The problem with this is that you need 3 things: Sight, Speed (to get ahead of the monster to be able to react), AND the correct card to react with. And that's on top of Sight not lasting per turn, but per card revealed. Enemies are going to play multiple cards, and it takes away from your own cards by playing something with Sight. It's never free, and factors into the budget of whatever card you choose to add to your deck.

I agree with the other posters - Sight just FEELS BAD. It needs a rework.

When I first started playing, I thought Sight was necessary; I learned quickly how completely unnecessary it is. Sight is a NOOB TRAP. And sure, you can build around a Sight build, but new players aren't going to have the cards/heroes/artifacts unlocked to do that.
Ok, 3 things to your claim:
1) To react to an enemy, you need to be faster than them. This is regardless of having sight on an enemy or simply knowing(due to experience) what is going to happen next.
2) Having the right card available to react is, funnily enough also required regardless of the amount of sight stacks on enemies.
3) Which leaves us with the last "issue"; stacking Sight itself and the benefit it provides outside of the vision.
Stacking Sight on enemies is easy. Generating 5 stacks of Sight per turn on every enemy(from a single hero) is very much possible. Which is more than enough to see what your enemies are going to do.
This means that the only "issue" is the various benefits to stacking sight.

Calling Sight a noob trap is counter intuitive. For new players, knowing what is going to happen next can help them make informed decisions and avoid sudden death. Since most sight-based cards are cheap and of a cheap rarity, they are not hard to get either. And because of their cheap cost, they scale well with any form of damage buff you get. There are several 0, 1 and 2 cost cards that can provide a lot of sight, while also dealing damage and applying other debuffs. This makes them very efficent.
For those who rely less on sight for being able to see enemy cards, and more on damage potential, it scales very well with with various items and cards(3 of the 4 classes have access to cards that scale directly on Sight, and every class have cards that scales with some of the synergy effects you can create through them).

Example: Nezglekt can easily generate massive amounts of Sight on every enemy, every turn. Which in turn becomes Poison, Bleed and Burning(which can scale off the Priest itself, the Mage, the Warrior and the Rogue).
Of course, other priest can do this as well, but Nezglekt has built-in mechanics to support it.
MaIheX Sep 21, 2022 @ 8:18pm 
Originally posted by Fendelphi:
1) To react to an enemy, you need to be faster than them. This is regardless of having sight on an enemy or simply knowing(due to experience) what is going to happen next.
2) Having the right card available to react is, funnily enough also required regardless of the amount of sight stacks on enemies.

I'll just point out that your first 2 counter points are irrelevant, they're not even counter points actually (to be clear, they're not false, but simply irrelevant). Mainly because you're mixing up Sight status with the reacting to enemy part incorrectly.

1. Bleed/poison/burn/shock don't require you to be faster than the enemy, you don't need to react with them, they're always in effect and give value. They don't have any other prerequisites in order to be useful, unlike Sight, which is utterly and completely useless as a status by itself if your whole team is slower, also mostly useless if you have only 1 character faster. Also, the reacting part itself is available even without Sight, I can try and predict possible enemy moves and/or try preventing assumed worst outcomes.

2. "Having the right card" part is not a pre-requisite for other status effects, that's the whole point of Sight's uselessness. You NEED the right cards for Sight (that's on TOP of NEEDING to be faster, multiplicative!! conditions), otherwise there's no difference in outcomes even if you know what cards enemy will play, essentially bringing 0 value.

Sight requires too many conditions to give any value whatsoever based on it's primary function and is completely useless without meeting ALL of those conditions at the same time.

Perks also don't give any advantage to Sight, because other status effects also have perks that give even better benefits, while also being able to serve their intended purposes without any pre-conditions and some also having secondary effects of reducing resistances, while Sight gets this only as a perk.

3. As for the 3rd point, it doesn't really argue for Sights sake honestly, because stacking almost any other status effect is as easy and sometimes easier than Sight. And unlike Sight, they inherently give value from more stacks, while Sight without perks is the same at 5 and 200 stacks, 0 difference.

Also, Sight serving as a conduit for other status effects is an argument AGAINST Sight, because it's basically the same as saying "Sight is useful because you get other actual useful Status effects when meeting certain conditions and requirements". Other status effects can do the same WHILE giving actual value by themselves.

So that's the main problem, the way it works now, Sight is basically inherently almost useless as a Status effect to even serve it's primary function, not to mention that enemies have predetermined movesets, so you can know the EXACT cards they'll play if you memorize it, again invalidating Sight's primary function

That's why some are calling it a Noob trap, precisely because what you say isn't incorrect and gives the false sense that Sight is useful, while in fact it is not. And I'm even someone that likes the idea of Sight status effect, but the implementation needs rebalancing at the least (or even a rework if it can't be simply rebalanced).
Fendelphi Sep 22, 2022 @ 2:50am 
Originally posted by MaIheX:
Originally posted by Fendelphi:
1) To react to an enemy, you need to be faster than them. This is regardless of having sight on an enemy or simply knowing(due to experience) what is going to happen next.
2) Having the right card available to react is, funnily enough also required regardless of the amount of sight stacks on enemies.

I'll just point out that your first 2 counter points are irrelevant, they're not even counter points actually (to be clear, they're not false, but simply irrelevant). Mainly because you're mixing up Sight status with the reacting to enemy part incorrectly.

1. Bleed/poison/burn/shock don't require you to be faster than the enemy, you don't need to react with them, they're always in effect and give value. They don't have any other prerequisites in order to be useful, unlike Sight, which is utterly and completely useless as a status by itself if your whole team is slower, also mostly useless if you have only 1 character faster. Also, the reacting part itself is available even without Sight, I can try and predict possible enemy moves and/or try preventing assumed worst outcomes.

2. "Having the right card" part is not a pre-requisite for other status effects, that's the whole point of Sight's uselessness. You NEED the right cards for Sight (that's on TOP of NEEDING to be faster, multiplicative!! conditions), otherwise there's no difference in outcomes even if you know what cards enemy will play, essentially bringing 0 value.

Sight requires too many conditions to give any value whatsoever based on it's primary function and is completely useless without meeting ALL of those conditions at the same time.

Perks also don't give any advantage to Sight, because other status effects also have perks that give even better benefits, while also being able to serve their intended purposes without any pre-conditions and some also having secondary effects of reducing resistances, while Sight gets this only as a perk.

3. As for the 3rd point, it doesn't really argue for Sights sake honestly, because stacking almost any other status effect is as easy and sometimes easier than Sight. And unlike Sight, they inherently give value from more stacks, while Sight without perks is the same at 5 and 200 stacks, 0 difference.

Also, Sight serving as a conduit for other status effects is an argument AGAINST Sight, because it's basically the same as saying "Sight is useful because you get other actual useful Status effects when meeting certain conditions and requirements". Other status effects can do the same WHILE giving actual value by themselves.

So that's the main problem, the way it works now, Sight is basically inherently almost useless as a Status effect to even serve it's primary function, not to mention that enemies have predetermined movesets, so you can know the EXACT cards they'll play if you memorize it, again invalidating Sight's primary function

That's why some are calling it a Noob trap, precisely because what you say isn't incorrect and gives the false sense that Sight is useful, while in fact it is not. And I'm even someone that likes the idea of Sight status effect, but the implementation needs rebalancing at the least (or even a rework if it can't be simply rebalanced).
Indeed, they are not counter points. It was his/her counter points, which I refuted. The claim was that a negative for using sight is that to "use it" you need to be faster and having the cards to counter enemy actions. But both those points are required regardless of Sight on enemies, if you want to counter your enemy's actions before they act that turn.

As for your points:
1) You do not need to be faster than your enemy to get value out of sight either. Sure, you might not always get value on turn one(unless you have ways to apply sight on battle start, "cough-cough"), but on turn 2, stacks you applied on turn 1 gets exact value, as they havent been diminished(including any extra debuffs that were applied through them).
And it is the same for Bleed, Poison, Burn and Spark. If you are slower than your enemies on turn 1, you wont see any value of them until turn 2, as they trigger on enemy turns.
So once more, that is not a negative to Sight, but the player not building their decks correctly.

2) What "right card" are you talking about? Stacking Sight is straight forward. Or are you still on about counter enemy actions through Sight?
I have already addressed this. If you only use Sight for that alone, you do not need a lot of such cards/effects to keep 4-5 stacks on enemies each turn. You have 4 characters that can react. If you are not faster than your enemies or have the right cards available, that is an issue with your deck building and has nothing to do with Sight stacks.

But if you want to use Sight offensively, you of course lean more heavily into that with your decks. And due to how efficient and effective such builds are, offensively speaking, there are not a lot of enemy actions to react to(as they are dead) and you are getting excellent and Great ratings very often even with bloated builds(deck sizes around 30) at madness 3-5.

You want to stack Poison, Bleed or Burn for your Rogue, Warrior or Mage? Sight can assist with that, while also providing utility and even healing.
If you just want to stack Poison and/or Burn, you can reach about 100 of each on all enemies, in 1 turn, with a Nezglekts sight build, in addition to a massive amount of Sight(which can set up nuke cards from Priest, Mage and Warrior, a well as Silvie).


As for perks, you do know that you can get the Burn, Poison and Bleed ones in addition to the Sight ones, right? So that every effect that applies Sight, also applies the other effects, with the perk benefits.
Imagine if every burn you applied also applied bleed, poison and Chill on Cornelius, while also providing utility and healing.


In my current run(Madness 4), I have just arrived at the final boss and Nezglekt has so far dealt 16k damage during the run. Not bad for a support/healer.
MaIheX Sep 22, 2022 @ 3:51am 
Originally posted by Fendelphi:
I think you misunderstand how Sight fully works in the first place and what is the argument against it even about.

If you're slower, you do NOT get ANY value whatsoever if you have Sight on enemy, neither on Turn 1, nor Turn 2, nor any other Turn, for the entire fight. Complete 0 value. You DO NOT get to see enemy cards, because all enemies always play them BEFORE you get to act at all on ALL the turns, at which point there's nothing to react to, you can always check what cards were used even without Sight. Completely 0 value.

Plus, you're also misunderstanding how the mechanics and logic and balance works in these types of games. IF you use Sight, that means you DO NOT use something else. Just because you can use Sight to get various other Status effects, doesn't not mean that you can't just use something else to get better value, like "Double Bleed/Poison" stacks as example, and there are many other situations. The difference is that other Status effects, unlike Sight, inherently provide value by themselves without being completely tied to multitude of conditions in order to provide any value whatsoever from it's primary function.

Bleed/Poison doesn't have any prerequisites, just use it, and that's it, always damage, no pre-requisites required.
Burn same, apply it, immediate resist debuff value and DOT, without any conditions whatsoever on other game mechanics.
Shock also, instant resist debuff and AOE DOT, no requirements or conditions.
Chill instant resist debuff, and additional slow, once again it just works, always has value.
Bless - immediate unconditional increased damage and increased healing received. Only healing part has pre-requisite of having healing skills, which is always automatically met, unless it's a specific CHOICE not to use heals (when using bless specifically for damage increase).
Sanctify - resist reduction and requirement for enemy to be hit. And you always get to hit enemies, it automatically meets this requirement (except Thorns build, but that's a separate thing entirely)
Dark - resist reduction again, also triggers damage at certain stacks, which in a way is automatically done by Dark status itself, not dependent on any other game mechanic, always works.

All of the above ALWAYS simply just work, don't depend on any other game mechanic, always inherently provide instant value. All of them have perks to make them even better. Many of them can be stacked to huge numbers just as easily as Sight.

Now what does Sight do?
First, you HAVE to be faster than the enemy. This is MANDATORY. If you're not, Sight does absolutely nothing.
Second, you MUST HAVE specific cards (either offensive or defensive) in order to REACT to enemy cards, otherwise if you don't have such cards, then what does Sight provide? That's right, literally nothing, 0 value whatsoever. Also, you MUST draw the required cards, which is RNG, and you'd need to have specific cards for specific situations. The problem? You can't really have cards for all situations, and if you do, then you'll have very little chance of drawing them because of too many cards in deck.
Third, once Sight is applied, it does absolutely nothing. It's value is directly dependent on above conditions.
Fourth, and this is a very important one, I can use the 1st and 2nd points even WITHOUT Sight, because I already know what the enemy will use, it's always the exact same cards in rotation for same enemies.

So Sight, in order to give any value whatsoever, directly depends on multiple other mechanics, while those other mechanics by themselves do not really need Sight at all and work by themselves completely separately irrespective of any other mechanics.

Also, if you spend perks on Sight, you're essentially not taking some other perks, which would give more benefit. That's an opportunity cost right there. Also, Sight perks don't give any additional value to Sight, you just get more stacks, that's it. More stacks of something that gives 0 value by itself is useless.
mmaindi Sep 22, 2022 @ 6:03am 
Unless I'm playing Nezglekt, I don't really value Sight at all (it's still a minor convenience, but w/e). As far as it's circumstantial effectiveness, Slow and Fast buff/debuffs actually function similarly: they either meet a threshold of making you faster than particular enemies, or not. If/when they don't actually chance initiative order, they simply have zero effect. That's just... how those mechanics work. I don't really see a problem with that -- yes, Sight is "weaker" than some other debuffs, but that's not really a design issue, just a piece of knowledge to have when you're making choices.

Imo, despite its fundamental effective weakness, it's still a focal debuff because Nezglekt is the strongest priest character and can grow to one of the strongest dps flat out (while full healing your party pretty much every round for free).
Psylisa Sep 22, 2022 @ 6:56am 
Originally posted by mmaindi:
Imo, despite its fundamental effective weakness, it's still a focal debuff because Nezglekt is the strongest priest character and can grow to one of the strongest dps flat out (while full healing your party pretty much every round for free).
Having a character like Nez or Syl utilize Sight to provide boosts actually goes against the pro-Sight argument. It exists not to reveal cards, but to provide an ancillary DPS/Healing source. That in and of itself should tell you that Sight (as in the original function to reveal cards) isn't working properly.

Sight is also typically over-budgeted on cards. Yes, you can get cards like Vigilance or Bad Augery to add Sight, but ask yourself - would I prefer to have Dark or Poison or Bleed in the same amount as Sight on that card? Typically, the answer is a resounding yes, outside of those aforementioned ancillary mechanics that work with Sight.

And I think I misspoke earlier - I don't want Sight to be reactive, I want to see cards enemies are playing to be PROACTIVE. And yes, for that you absolutely need to be faster than the enemy to do things like put up defenses or lower enemy block, or kill a particular enemy - based on what they are about to use. That SHOULD be the key value in Sight, but it isn't.

Another solution I thought of was having Sight lower the Speed of enemies, much like Cold stacks do. 1 speed per 2 stacks of Sight, and have Cold stacks do something else. That solves most of Sight's innate issues, as it provides value as a debuff by itself and works toward Sight's intended purpose to reveal cards and be proactive to enemy intents.
Last edited by Psylisa; Sep 22, 2022 @ 6:57am
TnJ Sep 22, 2022 @ 7:11am 
Originally posted by Psylisa:
Originally posted by mmaindi:
Imo, despite its fundamental effective weakness, it's still a focal debuff because Nezglekt is the strongest priest character and can grow to one of the strongest dps flat out (while full healing your party pretty much every round for free).
Having a character like Nez or Syl utilize Sight to provide boosts actually goes against the pro-Sight argument. It exists not to reveal cards, but to provide an ancillary DPS/Healing source. That in and of itself should tell you that Sight (as in the original function to reveal cards) isn't working properly.

Sight is also typically over-budgeted on cards. Yes, you can get cards like Vigilance or Bad Augery to add Sight, but ask yourself - would I prefer to have Dark or Poison or Bleed in the same amount as Sight on that card? Typically, the answer is a resounding yes, outside of those aforementioned ancillary mechanics that work with Sight.

And I think I misspoke earlier - I don't want Sight to be reactive, I want to see cards enemies are playing to be PROACTIVE. And yes, for that you absolutely need to be faster than the enemy to do things like put up defenses or lower enemy block, or kill a particular enemy - based on what they are about to use. That SHOULD be the key value in Sight, but it isn't.

Another solution I thought of was having Sight lower the Speed of enemies, much like Cold stacks do. 1 speed per 2 stacks of Sight, and have Cold stacks do something else. That solves most of Sight's innate issues, as it provides value as a debuff by itself and works toward Sight's intended purpose to reveal cards and be proactive to enemy intents.

It doesn't go against the pro sight argument. If you don't want/need sight for anything, you can take it out of your deck. If it provides you a benefit, leave it in and enjoy it. Sight was a niche and fairly awkward priest dps mechanic for ages before Nezgleckt or Sylvie was added. Now it's a primary source of healing for Nezglekt and potentially massive DPS depending on how you want to play priests.

Can you link to the design documents where you're finding the intended purpose of game mechanics?
Psylisa Sep 22, 2022 @ 7:22am 
Originally posted by TnJ:
Can you link to the design documents where you're finding the intended purpose of game mechanics?
Snarky replies don't an argument make since you know very well my name tag doesn't say <developer> after it.

Aside from ancillary mechanics like Nez, would you use Sight? Of course not. Would you use ANY other Curse? Absolutely.

"Take it if you want it" isn't really a choice since Sight comes at a cost. Playing a card with Sight utilizes an actual energy cost, budgetary cost on the card, and at best, an opportunity cost of simply having/drawing the card instead of something entirely more useful that can function on it's own. You can keep your head buried in the sand, but the innate value of Sight isn't present in the game and has to be propped up by other mechanics that DO provide value. Strip those out, and nobody in their right mind would be utilizing Sight.
MaIheX Sep 22, 2022 @ 7:23am 
Originally posted by TnJ:

Can you link to the design documents where you're finding the intended purpose of game mechanics?

Seriously? It's in the description of the Sight debuff itself, c'mon....
[Reveal 1 card per charge. Remove 1 charge at the end of the turn]

ANYTHING besides revealing cards is not it's purpose, simple as that.
Any other interactions are irrelevant, all those interactions can be changed to be based on Mark, Chill or anything else and would function exactly the same (like some already do). Sight is just basically an EMPTY debuff with a stack number, and some other mechanics can interact or scale with this number, but the Sight debuff itself is just an empty icon essentially.
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Date Posted: Sep 13, 2022 @ 7:18am
Posts: 44