Madness doesn't feel rewarding or fun

[Abigor]

First of all I would like to say that I absolutely love the game and have already spent many hours playing the game with my friends and so far continue doing so. But I will have a bit of a rant regarding the endgame. (Tl;DR in the end)

However as we progressed through the game, and started doing madness runs, game started to feel...like a drag at some points, and while it did add some challenge, ultimately it felt more like a chore rather than game where you're having fun, and the challenges presented didn't even feel rewarding.

The issue for us started with madness 3, and it came with no starting reward chest - fair enough, you are no longer able to build quite strong starting deck and roll for good gear to make act 1 and maybe even after a breeze. In addition perks that give character starting gold and gems may become more appealing - I get all that.

And it was still fun playing the game in first acts, but as we moved on to Act 3 and 4 few more issues popped up:

1 - Enemy health not just only becomes higher but madness increases it further where battles become a slog fest, it didn't feel challenging, in many cases, especially boss battles, it became a game of stalemate where we didn't feel any danger of dying and it was just a matter of stacking enough DoTs or other conditions that allows for 1-hit kills.

2 - After spending 8 to 13 rounds killing the boss in act 3 we got rewarded...200 gold and shards...when you expect to see exotic? (purple) and even legendary items in next act that may cost starting 1000 gold, and card upgrades costing around 600 to 1000 shards, 200 gold per character feels like you didn't even get rewarded.

Again I know counter argument may be that this is also a team game and you can instead view it as party getting 1000 gold and shards + extra gold or powerful items, but it really didn't feel like it was good enough rewards in later acts

3 - On topic of rewards same goes to optional corruptor fights, in similar way as getting low rewards from bosses, seeing an option to increase enemy damage, resistances or health for just 320 gold and shards (that's 80 per person) when enemies already will be much more powerful thanks to madness modifiers in act 4 also feels ridiculous. In addition the corruptor modifiers will become stronger in every act and despite being labelled as "easy" the difficulty of these fights will be doubled down in madness without achieving meaningful rewards.

While we did beat the game in the end, if anything we felt more exhausted and opted to go for lower madness with side modifiers, moreover completing the game on higher madness didn't feel rewarding at all.

I understand that higher madness will allow for increased chances of corrupted items and cards but those things still feel too rng based.

Furthermore, this is a deckbuilding game, and when looking at higher level of madness it seems that all the tools that makes the game fun are being taken away and rewards as you play the game or even by beating it are not adjusted.

What I would like to see is perhaps one of the followings:

- Allow reward chests to be claimed at any madness level, if there is worry of ruining the balance and making it too easy - limit the chest to 1 instead of 3 so that people still want to get a high score rather than grinding 3 separate ones. Because game already has some limitations by default like not being able to craft legendary cards, and there are limits to amount of card crafts, there is so much you can do. Even with good starting decks, the enemies will already have increased health, speed, damage reduction etc, so it will be more challenging.

(Sidenote - even if madness doesn;t allow to claim chest at the start I see no reason not to award one at the end, if I have completed madness 5 run, allow me to take it easy and breeze through madness 1 or 0 with that chest)

OR

- Keep no starting chest but increase the rewards you get along the way, make it so you are not just reliant on random card rewards at the end of the battle.

In any case the most fun in the game comes from making a deck that you like, that works and perhaps getting lucky enough to get a good items that synergies well.

At the moment the game becomes challenging on higher madness levels for all the wrong reasons.

Finally, it would be nice if completing madness level for the first time would give an additional reward - a perk point, increase to starting gold/shards, more hp...*something*. I would compare this to another game that I love - Hades, when you do a run with increased difficulty all the bosses will once again drop unique resources when you beat them so you can use those to unlock more stuff, it would be nice that there would be some sort of additional reward for beating higher level madness.

P.S. I know that there are people who breeze through even highest levels of madness without too much issues and this may seem to be a complaint from a person who just finds things hard and cannot beat the game. My complaint is not about game becoming more difficult, I like challenge, but the challenge feels boring and unrewarding.

/rant over

TL;DR - Higher madness levels take away everything that makes game fun, gold/shard rewards are not being scaled enough especially in later acts, boss battles become grindfest rather than a challenge, even completing higher madness levels doesn't feel rewarding in the end

[Depressed Catfish]

you should know that the community and I hates the chest system. I refuse to play below madness 3 because of it.

The game does become a slog, this game is not meant to be played in one session anymore, if it ever was.

You are spoiled with high shards and gold but you don't actually need much to survive. Take some optional challenges and you will be upgrading cards you don't really need upgraded just because you have so much. Also, there are perks for gold and shards once you rank up some.

However, higher madness is like 5-8 not 3, 3 is like base madness. My advice is to work on your builds more. And uh, this game isn't Hades they can't just turn it into Hades, the most they could do now is give us a skin or card back for beating new madness (but that means locking them behind a skill wall, which is fine but feels bad to some players)

[Abigor]

Originally posted by Depressed Catfish:

you should know that the community and I hates the chest system. I refuse to play below madness 3 because of it.

The game does become a slog, this game is not meant to be played in one session anymore, if it ever was.

You are spoiled with high shards and gold but you don't actually need much to survive. Take some optional challenges and you will be upgrading cards you don't really need upgraded just because you have so much. Also, there are perks for gold and shards once you rank up some.

However, higher madness is like 5-8 not 3, 3 is like base madness. My advice is to work on your builds more. And uh, this game isn't Hades they can't just turn it into Hades, the most they could do now is give us a skin or card back for beating new madness (but that means locking them behind a skill wall, which is fine but feels bad to some players)

Yes I understand that having a big chest reward at the start may be too big of an advantage and I mentioned that having no chest makes it so perks that give more shards and coins actually have place to take.

Also I did try to avoid saying "High" madness because I understand that madness 3 is by no means a "high" one, thus referring to "higher" but not immediately pointing at the 10-12.

I'm aware this is not Hades, nor they should make it one, as these are 2 completely separate games, my comparison was between similar system in place to give a replay-ability: Heat (In Hades) and Madness (In Obelisk).

Skins for characters could also be nice instead of any increase in power, as for some people feeling bad about it - well there is already a card back that is unlocked if you beat madness 12

[Depressed Catfish]

the chest system isn't bad because it gives an advantage, it's just a awful system.

The chest system does not work well with multiple runs. Start a run with friends and don't have a chest? Guess you get 1% of the shards you would've gotten if you were on madness 3. Several times I've cashed in one big chest to split among friends who got jipped this way.

The chest system fails new players too. It's already hard to win when you don't know anything about the game, but you also get zero perks so all your damage and status effects are hard nerfed, and no supplies means your towns suck too. Now you get less shards than an experienced player too, despite your upgrades costing more?

The chest system incentives playing some runs at disadvantage and then some runs at advantage. You can play one run without cashing in a chest and then the next cashing in 2, or even only cash in chests once every 3 runs for maximum chance at winning. That's clearly horrible to play, essentially creating 2 runs or 5 hours of setup for one run.

Even if you don't do that, it still creates the problem of the feedback loop. If you spend a chest at the start of the game and then die early, you enter next run with an impossibly huge disadvantage, so much so that it still creates the problem of some runs with advantage and some runs without. It becomes very risky to try new builds and take risks, because you aren't just risking this run, you are risking the next run too. Plus, new players who struggle to clear the first world need to spend a few runs pushing their wall out just to increase their chest size like prestiging in an idle game.

There are only 2 benefits to the chest system. One is that it allows players freedom to create whatever decks they want if they are willing to spend time farming chests. This is essentially just a subpar sandbox aspect at the expense of people who don't want it. The solution is simply to add a sandbox mode where shards are unlimited, something the devs have considered (and can probably be modded relatively easily).

The other reason is something plenty of roguelikes do, which is a punishment for restarting. Slay the Spire provides 4 choices of boons at the start of each run, but it's reduced to 2 if you did not beat the first boss. This system means it isn't really worth it to restart after 5 minutes if you don't get good drops, which is nice. But why would Obelisk need this? It takes far longer to play, has built in reload combats, has said many times it is more of an rpg than a roguelike, and personally I don't think any player is resetting the game just to try and get rope or good shop drops to spawn, and if some insane player was then why hurt her fun?

Chest system is bad man.

And you were not just comparing Ascension systems, you were comparing meta progression systems in general. Obelisk is tied to rank, not ascension. Ascension is purely for fun and a challenge, nothing else. Hell, Hades is pretty similar, as Titan Blood can be purchased with keys and darkness, items that are earned simply by playing the game at any level. Even with hundreds of hours in the game, Hades still has plenty of extra unlocks to get, simply because the unlocks after a certain point don't help much compared to your skill. While you earn more for doing higher heats, the rewards can be earned without doing that and the rewards aren't needed. This is not true in Obelisk, as the skill expression has a peak since you really on your cards. A simple plus 1 aura is massive, a simple plus 1 damage will let you excellent early combats and does add up over time. You can't do what they did in Hades here, it does not fit.

[LoneHer0]

I kind of agree, but overcoming the challenge itself can be the reward/fun itself.

I get it though, I got to like Madness 7 or 8 where starting energy get's -3, so you can barely do anything in the first two acts now; threw in the towel for now to just experiment with other characters I don't play with at lower levels.

If anything, I think the real issue is trying to have fun, but also not choosing a difficulty that is a cakewalk or an abrupt wall of frustration.

[mmaindi]

I'm not sure why the chest system at low madness is supposed to be somehow worse than having a sandbox mode that removes shard costs. If you want a run where you have a customized deck out of the gate, play low madness. If you want a more challenging and constrained run, play higher madness (once these are unlocked anyway) -- what is the problem with that as a mechanism for variety? "Some people don't like" optional modes isn't much of an argument against those modes if what they do want to play is also available.

[Depressed Catfish]

Originally posted by mmaindi:

I'm not sure why the chest system at low madness is supposed to be somehow worse than having a sandbox mode that removes shard costs. If you want a run where you have a customized deck out of the gate, play low madness. If you want a more challenging and constrained run, play higher madness (once these are unlocked anyway) -- what is the problem with that as a mechanism for variety? "Some people don't like" optional modes isn't much of an argument against those modes if what they do want to play is also available.

it's worse than a sandbox mode because in order to get 5000 shards you need a high winrate, and in order to get more than that you need to grind. A sandbox mode would be better to remove these limitations. Chest system is worse than flat shards for those who don't want a sandbox mode, for all the reasons I've listed, and worse for those who do, since there are still annoying limitations. Plus the psudo sandbox mode is only for lower level madness, but an actual sandbox mode would allow attempts at max madness with full builds, which some people might enjoy shredding the hardest enemies in the game with the best builds rather than just one tapping the level 0 cuck enemies.

Why push these awkward restrictions on players who want a decked out build from the start, ya know the type of players who would love a sandbox, and also limit new players who don't? I believe I remember the reason the devs keep it is so sandbox enjoyers can use it, and they expressed vague interest in a sandbox mode. Really it's the perfect fix.

The fact good+traditional players can leave the chest system doesn't change the pros of cons of the system. And since this pal was suggesting the chest system mayhaps be extended to all madness, I believe it was beneficial to explain why the chest system is bad for good+traditional players as well. Imagine a max madness player needing to farm chests for 10 hours to even begin a run for a high score, it plainly doesn't work.

[iR| Ant]

Just don't claim the chests then lmao.

[Depressed Catfish]

Originally posted by Ant:

Just don't claim the chests then lmao.

then no nothing

[mmaindi]

Originally posted by Depressed Catfish:

Plus the psudo sandbox mode is only for lower level madness, but an actual sandbox mode would allow attempts at max madness with full builds, which some people might enjoy shredding the hardest enemies in the game with the best builds rather than just one tapping the level 0 cuck enemies.

Why push these awkward restrictions on players who want a decked out build from the start, ya know the type of players who would love a sandbox, and also limit new players who don't? I believe I remember the reason the devs keep it is so sandbox enjoyers can use it, and they expressed vague interest in a sandbox mode. Really it's the perfect fix.

The fact good+traditional players can leave the chest system doesn't change the pros of cons of the system. And since this pal was suggesting the chest system mayhaps be extended to all madness, I believe it was beneficial to explain why the chest system is bad for good+traditional players as well. Imagine a max madness player needing to farm chests for 10 hours to even begin a run for a high score, it plainly doesn't work.

Ok, I'm actually pretty sympathetic to that. To get at the heart of the matter, let me ask what you would think about changes along these lines: only single chests openable on any given run (I like the idea of saving more than one chest at a time, letting you choose from them and be less tied to a single wipe badly impeding progress), and rather than restricting them to some Madness threshold, perhaps implementing diminishing value (5-15% reduction per Madness level?) on use (aiming for something in the 20-40% total value available at the highest Madness). Maybe an additional Corruption option could be added to disable chest use outright.

I like that they chest system adds a game-to-game layer of progression which isn't the slow (and capped) growth of talent/perk levels or card unlocks, but also does not create the potential for infinite growth. I think creating the carry-over from previous games is a beneficial mode of progression to offer. I can understand concerns about having to farm in preparation for a run, but I think that short the multiple chest use per run option, that issue goes away -- rather it becomes more an option to build on prior success rather than to pressure you into preparation.

[Bumc]

Easiest solution would be to have "no chests" as a modifier rather than an intrinsic property of a madness level.
Then you _can_ force it on yourself and play "clean", or you can play high madness with chests.
Maybe having an arbitrary large number of Big ♥♥♥♥ Points attached to it so people aiming for a high score would have to play with it always enabled as well.

[Abigor]

Originally posted by Bumc:

Easiest solution would be to have "no chests" as a modifier rather than an intrinsic property of a madness level.
Then you _can_ force it on yourself and play "clean", or you can play high madness with chests.
Maybe having an arbitrary large number of Big ♥♥♥♥ Points attached to it so people aiming for a high score would have to play with it always enabled as well.

I do like this one, we already have additional modifiers on the side that can modify madness to be challenging even further, so moving chests there would be viable option so that people can always chose themselves if they want it or not.

I also support the idea of limiting claimable chests to only 1. You can still "store" up to 3 of them, but can only pick one, that will also push people to try and have better runs to get a better rewards.

___


As a side-note I do also understand the potential issue with chests which @Catfish described, and starting without one isn't that big of issue imo. The bigger issue for me atm that really sticks out isn't getting a big cash/shard reward at the start, but rather it's not getting meaningful rewards as you continue playing, boss rewards give you a minuscule rewards as you beat them, obelisk corruption fights also scale very poorly reaching later Acts. As I stated before, beating Boss in Act 3 and getting ~200 gold is not a great reward as you are reaching the endgame.

[TnJ]

Originally posted by Abigor:

Originally posted by Bumc:

Easiest solution would be to have "no chests" as a modifier rather than an intrinsic property of a madness level.
Then you _can_ force it on yourself and play "clean", or you can play high madness with chests.
Maybe having an arbitrary large number of Big ♥♥♥♥ Points attached to it so people aiming for a high score would have to play with it always enabled as well.

I do like this one, we already have additional modifiers on the side that can modify madness to be challenging even further, so moving chests there would be viable option so that people can always chose themselves if they want it or not.

I also support the idea of limiting claimable chests to only 1. You can still "store" up to 3 of them, but can only pick one, that will also push people to try and have better runs to get a better rewards.

___


As a side-note I do also understand the potential issue with chests which @Catfish described, and starting without one isn't that big of issue imo. The bigger issue for me atm that really sticks out isn't getting a big cash/shard reward at the start, but rather it's not getting meaningful rewards as you continue playing, boss rewards give you a minuscule rewards as you beat them, obelisk corruption fights also scale very poorly reaching later Acts. As I stated before, beating Boss in Act 3 and getting ~200 gold is not a great reward as you are reaching the endgame.

You can make absolutely enormous chests, limiting it to one doesn't do much.

[OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle]

Chests and madness don't need to go together. I think chests are kinda needed for early game but they shouldn't be presented as something players should rely on.

If anything I would say the main issue with madness is the combination of limited starting resources AND unconfigurable character start decks.

By madness 10+, you can only really consider building teams that are fairly well covered by starter cards. Unless you get amazing luck you can't bank on any particular side boards, so it's all about simplistic and straightforward (some may say boring) decks.

I think more lenient resource limiting at high madness could be okay, to allow a little more flexibility. But for their concept the current system is mostly fine, just normal mode "trains" players wrong by spoiling us with being OP all the time.

[The Fool]

I feel like it's worth mentioning, since no one else has yet, that while chests go away at madness 3, the ability to exchange supplies for gold and shards doesn't go away until madness 6. So you can still effectively get "infinite" starting gold/shards by carrying in things from previous runs well into the madness unlock climb.

I feel like (if you notice this) it subtly encourages you to do some more runs on lower madness to work on your unlocks - characters (and character ranks), skills, perk points, town unlocks, and pets. You can start going into madness 3+ once you don't have anything left to use your supplies on, using them to replace chests, while still getting those last few perk points and such. Then if you're still wanting to continue playing even once you get to madness 6, then the game finally stops giving you any option to bring in currency from previous runs. At that point the game expects you to have everything or almost everything unlocked, and to have the knowledge to plan a cohesive team and a good route for them in order to continue to win.

[forcecomdr]

I agree with OP.
The game went from roll face across keyboard easy, to WTF, i'm almost losing people on normal fights with the same team at madness 3.

Fights i finished in round one on normal took me 5 rounds on 3. I get you want a challenge, but mobs that dispell 3+ every turn is wtf...

I'm only on madness 3 and the game has already become unfun.