Block and Taunt

[Silvereye]

Hello,

Block ends when the "global" turn ends for lack of a better word. I think it should end after a full rotation back to your character. There are things that mitigate this problem like fortification however some monsters apply block to themselves, such as the end boss of the first act, and they do not get to utilize it because the "global" round ends and it simply falls off because they are too slow. This makes applying block effects without fortification useless unless you character or the enemy has alot of speed.

Also I like how the devs consider taunt powerful and i dont disagree, however access to it early game can be frustrating and make classes like the sentinel hard to play early on. Maybe add some lower tier cards that have access to taunt but also penalize the character in some other fashion much like the hourglass of death equipment

[soviergn]

Shield covers this niche already, and there are tons of tools to effect where you are in the round placement to work block.

[Rhin]

Originally posted by Silvereye:

Hello,

Block ends when the "global" turn ends for lack of a better word. I think it should end after a full rotation back to your character. There are things that mitigate this problem like fortification however some monsters apply block to themselves, such as the end boss of the first act, and they do not get to utilize it because the "global" round ends and it simply falls off because they are too slow. This makes applying block effects without fortification useless unless you character or the enemy has alot of speed.

Also I like how the devs consider taunt powerful and i dont disagree, however access to it early game can be frustrating and make classes like the sentinel hard to play early on. Maybe add some lower tier cards that have access to taunt but also penalize the character in some other fashion much like the hourglass of death equipment

When we started making the game, we tried a lot of things with the block system, if we made the block last for a whole round and go away at the start of the turn, it worked very well for the caster(warrior), just like it works well in StS, basically because there is only one character. But what if, to give you 3 quick examples, Magnus puts block on himself, it's all good. But if he puts it on Evelyn who goes after magnus? this block doesn't last even one enemy? and if he puts it to Andrin who moved before magnus? there are many other problems to take into account, so in the end we opted for the current Block/Shield/Fortify system, also making that the healer or characters who moved usually last have more options of cards with "Shield" and the strategy planning component that it adds.

Also the healers have a card that can turn the block into a shield ;)

Yes, the taunt is very powerful that's why it's scarce at the beginning, we'll put some others items for sure that give taunt with penaltys, the problem of giving it with a card that just adds debuffs, is that with a simple dispel or with a buffer you'll counter the debuff and you'll keep the taunt.

[Feynt]

Having just unlocked the Sentinel tonight and given him a test run, I have to say he seems extremely lackluster because of his speed and build. 11 speed default puts him behind most opponents, but as a tank he wants to be before all the opponents so he can use the copious amount of block cards in his repertoire as well as potentially Provoke for the taunt. It feels like Magnus is a much better tank just because more often than not he goes at an initiative count on par with the enemies. Admittedly I'm looking at a rank 2 Heiner vs. a rank 15 Magnus, but even with an hourglass to give Heiner provoke for the opening 2 turns, he's not anything special right now and needed constant baby sitting from the healer to deal with the damage (something any other unit with provoke could have done).

I agree that something needs to be done so he specifically can carry over some of his effort to the next round. More fortify generating cards (perhaps with weak block, like a 1 cost fortify 1 3-4 block), more shielding cards (Steel Skin isn't enough) for warriors, or perhaps a way to convert block to shield through upgrading cards.

Originally posted by Rhin:

When we started making the game, ... But what if, ...

I can appreciate how block lasting with different times would be wonky if it ended on the target's turn. But this is something resolved in D&D as it would happen: "Until the start/end of your next turn" litters the spells and skills of the various classes, permitting effects which give defensive options to last until the users' next turn. This would make Heiner work even if he acts last as he can block for members of the team and that block lasts until his turn rolls around at the end of the turn when most of the monsters have already acted.

This kind of trivialises Shield because now it's just a delayed Block. If your block can already last until your next turn it doesn't matter if a slow healer casts a block spell since it'll last through another round of combat. But it can still be useful as a kind of echo effect looking ahead at following turns. And really that might make for a good identity for Shield as well, a gradually decreasing damage mitigation stack. Two options I can think of:

• Literally damage mitigation - 5 stacks of Shield reduces any damage source by 5, then is reduced by 1 as Thorns is. I could see this making some boss fights a real challenge, but also making some fights in general trivial if Shield is widely available.
  
• A different kind of Block - Rather than it all vanishing at once, half of the stack vanishes per time your turn rolls around. Put up 20 Shield on someone, one full round passes to your turn again, now they only have 10 Shield. Then 5, then 2 (round down), 1, and gone.

In the first case shielding should be a thing warriors can't do, or should be a thing that is possible very sparingly from them, as a flat damage reduction can trivialise some normally dangerous spells (see the sea horse casters or harpy casters). Healers should be able to do it almost exclusively, and then it should be expensive (2 cost Shield of Warding or higher).

In the second, you're basically just making a longer lasting Block. This makes sense as warriors wouldn't have the magical ability to echo such protection, but healers can. Thus their identity remains intact. It still falls off to a powerful barrage of attacks just the same.

Originally posted by Rhin:

Also the healers have a card that can turn the block into a shield ;)

I've been unlocking quite a few cards, but I haven't seen this one yet. I've only seen shield/block cards which you can upgrade into shield/heal cards (Barrier).

Originally posted by Rhin:

Yes, the taunt is very powerful that's why it's scarce at the beginning, we'll put some others items for sure that give taunt with penaltys, the problem of giving it with a card that just adds debuffs, is that with a simple dispel or with a buffer you'll counter the debuff and you'll keep the taunt.

This can be counteracted by making taunt be considered a debuff, making the target less likely to be dispelled since they risk removing the provoke to cancel vulnerable, bleeding, or burning stacks. It kind of is in a way, just as being wet is, because you can certainly take all the damage for a team, but you're taking all the damage for the team, just as wet can counteract burning stacks in one instance and be the cause of you taking 10s to 20s of damage from simple lightning spells. You could also try incorporating another debuff effect into provoke, reducing resistances slightly (5% globally) for example while keeping it a buff. That way nobody can dispel it but the penalty remains.

[Xuande]

I think the Sentinel is the strongest character in the game currently, and his lower speed is an asset in specific setups, allowing teammates to outspeed him and set him up for more consistent Round 1 enemy teamwipes. Having really high HP, resistances, and starting Block are great to have on a carry DPS role, and Sentinel is well set to play that role if you want him to. He starts with Bluff. Craft more, upgrade them all to cost 0 energy, then fill as much of the remaining 15 card deck with cheap Vanish cards. You'll have consistent Round 2 full enemy kill combos, and by late Act 1 or earlier may start getting Round 1 full combos as well. And since he's very durable, there's less risk of him dying to a fast enemy opening.

Magnus ironically pairs well with him, as he can outspeed, provides Helping Hand for deck cycling consistency plus an answer to Insane/Daze or more with a lucky upgrade, and can lay out various enemy debuffs and team shielding cards that Sentinel won't have the room to run. I'm fairly confident that a Magnus+Sentinel composition with no other characters, if it were legal to do so, could clear New Game + on their own somewhat reliably with smart decision making.

While not as efficient, the starting Mage can do this as well, by upgrading her starting copies of Transfusion to always be in her opening hand. This works well enough in a regular run, but you'll be missing Magnus' defensive tools in a New Game + run where getting alpha strike killed is more common. Scroll of Speed is a good tool to set up Sentinel with a +9 Speed to open Round 2, and you can build the rest of her kit either around being a pure support, or a worst-case backup DPS.

[Rhin]

Also Sentinel has some base Fortify, he doesn't lose block, he has guard by default if you upgrade it to give fortify, the sentinel never lose block so doesn't matter when he moves infact moving last is better for taunt.

[Fail Tank]

Xuande:Okay, but like Heiner isn't very good of a tank due to his low speed and not having much shield, and fortify being obnoxious compared to just going first. The fact that his deck is the best launching point for a degenerate combo doesn't bear much on his overall ability, unless the game is supposed to be balanced around degenerate infinite combos you can buy in the first town.

Playing Heiner as a warrior and not as a combo piece pretty much necessitates having a support to babysit him with speed buffs. It's rough. I'd rather have Magnus who can often go early unless he gets whacked with a shackle, and can benefit from warrior's plentiful block cards. Heiner doesn't have the juice to make up for his drawbacks. His easy access to infinites will be patched out, his priest tier speed will remain.

[Fail Tank]

Feynt: the priest card is Save it For Later. Also, as much as block punishes low speed right now, having to track expiration times of every instance of block would be so much more frustrating for everyone. Trust me, you don't really want that.

[Rhin]

Bluff among others "easy" 0 cost draw cards will be patched/tweaked in the next patch (as always not final, but we need to test and balance those things).

No all characters should be equal, all characters cater to diferent playstiles and you don't have to play one if you don't want.

Want a fast tank that gois first in combat, take Magnus.
Want a slow tank that has fortify(block don't expire) and a easy access to taunt and lots of block, take Heiner.
Want an agressive frontliner, take Grukli.
Want a taunt more focus on Thorns, take ...

Heiner speed is intended, we can give him a little more if really needed but imho Heiner shines when he is last, and taking shield items like large shield or the wall, makes him even better.

[Feynt]

Originally posted by Rhin:

Bluff among others "easy" 0 cost draw cards will be patched/tweaked in the next patch (as always not final, but we need to test and balance those things).

As long as he can retain the 0 cost upgrade. I feel Heiner needs something without having to completely strip those out and replace them with Fast Slashes. Maybe having it upgrade into two paths for more draw or more bludgeoning for free, but no draw?

Originally posted by Rhin:

Heiner speed is intended, we can give him a little more if really needed but imho Heiner shines when he is last, and taking shield items like large shield or the wall, makes him even better.

If fortify is a requirement for him to be good as a late round tank, he needs to have access to it more readily, particularly for longer (i.e. boss) fights. Him having all the block in the world though doesn't change the fact that he can't block for the team with things like Barricade to stop/blunt AoE or chain/jump attacks. If he's supposed to be a dedicated guardian, I would think he could protect his team. You can't expect fortify to be on everyone though for the next round though. Unless a card gets implemented to give "your next defence card gives fortify" to combo with Barricade and the like.

[Xuande]

Having access to the block does include the few, but potentially very powerful Shield-based damage attacks as well. Once he's got his Shield Expert going generating a lot of free Shield, he can cash it in at the end of his turn for a kill or heavy hitting AoE. I see this being a possibly viable path for him in a post-nerf "1 shuffle per turn" meta.

I do agree that he cannot reliably take the aggro he wants to take (too few cards do this and one of them only targets teammates, which only works in double-Warrior comps), but there are enough attacks that get around that mechanic regardless, so going all-in on having the aggro every round consistently likely isn't worth its opportunity cost.

What initially drew me to trying him out is his raw durability. That alone will keep him viable for roles that may be harder for others to pull off. Not every Warrior needs to lean in hard on out-speeding the enemy.