GGST is horrible to learn

[Juno]

it's horrible trying to learn GGST compared to other fighting games, there's no frame data for any of the moves and the training menu is awful. even trying to learn combos with the weird menu is needlessly more cluttered than it has to be. i love every character in the game and i love Guilty Gear but it's just awful trying to learn stuff compared to other fighting games.

[Meseki]

Sounds like you've been playing the 'right' games before this, because I believe Strive may be slightly above average with its in-game learning tools (at least in my experience, which is admittedly mostly airdashers).

Not every game tells you about your moves' invincibility in the command list, shows videos of your moves, and has support for multiple potential dummy responses for multiple types of situations being set simultaneously.

[Juno]

Originally posted by Meseki:

Sounds like you've been playing the 'right' games before this, because I believe Strive may be slightly above average with its in-game learning tools (at least in my experience, which is admittedly mostly airdashers).

Not every game tells you about your moves' invincibility in the command list, shows videos of your moves, and has support for multiple potential dummy responses for multiple types of situations being set simultaneously.

none of that really matters compared to something that actually impacts how you play, like frame data. how would you ever know some moves are plus and some are punishable on block? (May's slash dolphin and heavy slash dolphin for example). fancy videos and saying that a move is just 'invincible' does not help.

[Juno]

Originally posted by Meseki:

Sounds like you've been playing the 'right' games before this, because I believe Strive may be slightly above average with its in-game learning tools (at least in my experience, which is admittedly mostly airdashers).

Not every game tells you about your moves' invincibility in the command list, shows videos of your moves, and has support for multiple potential dummy responses for multiple types of situations being set simultaneously.

Mortal Kombat 11 has a similar feature for bots to react on block as well as being able to record inputs, on top of showing you detailed frame data. you can also check every move's frame data in skullgirls.

[Meseki]

Originally posted by iSuck:

none of that really matters compared to something that actually impacts how you play, like frame data. how would you ever know some moves are plus and some are punishable on block? (May's slash dolphin and heavy slash dolphin for example). fancy videos and saying that a move is just 'invincible' does not help.

The last thing I stated is far more useful than in-game frame data, because it helps you lab out specific situations. Frame data is just information that can be listed outside of the game (especially since this isn't a tag game, and only some characters have attacks that can hit while the user can act freely), but you need an advanced third-party tool to get good labbing tools when a game doesn't have them built-in.

Also, to get the most important part of frame data (whether something is plus, even, or minus) for something that isn't jump-cancellable on block, you can easily just set the dummy to jump after blocking and hold Up yourself after doing the attack. (And the dummy should be the same character as you, so they have the same jump height/speed, in case that may differ in a game)

Originally posted by iSuck:

Mortal Kombat 11 has a similar feature for bots to react on block as well as being able to record inputs, on top of showing you detailed frame data. you can also check every move's frame data in skullgirls.

Those two games are notable in the in-game learning tools/information they give (though dummy recording and reacting on block are in most notable fighting games, including Strive). Not every game has as many useful features/information for learning, but they're still quite learnable, and in this game's case there's plenty of information online to help (like Dustloop's wiki).

[Hel Spites]

Originally posted by iSuck:

Originally posted by Meseki:

Sounds like you've been playing the 'right' games before this, because I believe Strive may be slightly above average with its in-game learning tools (at least in my experience, which is admittedly mostly airdashers).

Not every game tells you about your moves' invincibility in the command list, shows videos of your moves, and has support for multiple potential dummy responses for multiple types of situations being set simultaneously.

none of that really matters compared to something that actually impacts how you play, like frame data. how would you ever know some moves are plus and some are punishable on block? (May's slash dolphin and heavy slash dolphin for example). fancy videos and saying that a move is just 'invincible' does not help.

The same way you learn most games. You go to dustloop (or whatever a given game's equivalent is) and you check out the frame data there. It's not great, it should be in game, but in game frame data has never been a particularly common feature. Most fighting games don't really help you if you want to learn to play them well.

Here's hoping more games follow in SF6's footsteps and not only provide frame data, but also a display it in a way that's easily understandable with the frame data timeline bar that pops up every time you do a move.

[Nauct]

Originally posted by iSuck:

Originally posted by Meseki:

Sounds like you've been playing the 'right' games before this, because I believe Strive may be slightly above average with its in-game learning tools (at least in my experience, which is admittedly mostly airdashers).

Not every game tells you about your moves' invincibility in the command list, shows videos of your moves, and has support for multiple potential dummy responses for multiple types of situations being set simultaneously.

none of that really matters compared to something that actually impacts how you play, like frame data. how would you ever know some moves are plus and some are punishable on block? (May's slash dolphin and heavy slash dolphin for example). fancy videos and saying that a move is just 'invincible' does not help.

You would try them in training mode, learn how to use it

[RailbladerX]

Dust loop website has all your frame data. and its funny, cause im on the opposite spectrum. i find other fighters harder to learn. xD

good luck!

[DeadM00n]

Why are there so many people who justify lack of in-game frame data. It's not just for startup, active frames and on block advantage, it's also for more complex interactions, like with jump/dash cancel involved. For examples I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't know why does jack-o's cS suddenly turns from +3 to +10 on block with servant around, and without checking her strategy page on dustloop, you won't even know that this is a thing

[Max Belmont]

yup, you are right, there is no good reason to not have to moves data in the game. Anyone that tells otherwise is coping with the game being bare bones.

[JJJohhh]

Play Bridget and win.

[delta]

ain't this what dustloops is for? just go there for your framedata. boom, problem solved. thank me later

[nwad]

I'm sure beginners instinctively know to go to dustloop for frame data.

[mightfloat]

literally get good

[nwad]

Originally posted by mightfloat:

literally get good

That's not helpful.

[RE:Deemer]

not sure if bait