So is bridget trans or not?

[Max Payne: Maximum Pain]

Possibly spoiler warning so read on at your own risk


It's very confusing. I have not played Bridget yet, but apparently the bad ending shows them becoming a girl, and conforming to the identity that was forced on them.
Yet in the good ending they remain male and say "I will not change no matter what."?
The lack of pronouns on the official page means their gender could go either way based on the good or bad ending?
So what gives? Is Bridget trans or both and none?

Please be civil and don't just attack me for asking a question like the twitter folk do

[Providence 777]

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Wrong to both, because you can literally hear more dialogue than the final line posted in that 4chan screenshot.

The post in the screenshot also contains a link to a dropbox containing the audio of the last line specifically.

The last line is not what's being disputed, the CONTEXT that line is interpreted in is what makes it different.

The English one added context that was not intended in the original.

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

I don't need to understand fluent Japanese to be able to tell that Bridget's sentence does not, in fact, end with "o jō chande īdesuyo"

No, but you do need "something" to understand that context was added in the English VO, and the screenshot shows the download link to the rest of the audio. The important part in dispute is the content BEFORE that last line, because it informs you on how to understand the rest of the dialogue.

[Klowers]

Publicado originalmente por Leriko:

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Goldlewis mistakes Bridget's gender exactly two times literally ever, and corrects himself the second time before Bridget corrects him and says she's a girl. That is literally what happens.

You're literally trying to dig through translations of the text from 4chan to try and disprove what actually, canonically happens in the game.

These are my own translations. I have an N2 in Japanese which, while being nowhere near fluent, is plenty enough to have a linguistic understanding of this debacle. And back at you; you're literally trying to dig through mistranslations of the text from the game to try and disprove what actually, canonically happens in Japanese.

Official Translation:

B: I... I don't want to run scared anymore.
B: If I keep faking it like this, I know I'll regret it...
B: So from now on, no matter what... No more lying to myself.
B: Thank you! Both of you!
G: Don't mention it. Happy trails, cowgirl. Or, uh, cowboy...?
B: Cowgirl is fine!
B: Because... I'm a girl!

So what you're saying is after saying that "If I keep faking it like this, I know I'll regret it..." and "No more lying to myself." she then IMMEDIATELY decides to start faking that she's a girl because she's annoyed at being misgendered or whatever? Does that actually make any sense?

Unless you think the first three lines are mistranslated as well I'm not sure how this would make any sense.

[Leriko]

Publicado originalmente por Klowers:

Official Translation:

B: I... I don't want to run scared anymore.
B: If I keep faking it like this, I know I'll regret it...
B: So from now on, no matter what... No more lying to myself.
B: Thank you! Both of you!
G: Don't mention it. Happy trails, cowgirl. Or, uh, cowboy...?
B: Cowgirl is fine!
B: Because... I'm a girl!

So what you're saying is after saying that "If I keep faking it like, I know I'll regret it..." and "No more lying to myself." she then immediately decides to start faking that she's a girl because she's annoyed at being misgendered or whatever? Does that actually make any sense?

Unless you think the first three lines are mistranslated as well I'm not sure how this would make any sense.

No, I'm saying it's more like, "Whatever, you can call me a girl because you keep on forgetting I'm a guy despite me telling you a couple times earlier and you're not learning. It's annoying correcting you."
That's the linguistic context of the Japanese version, which on the surface level the dialogue comes across as sarcastic when Bridget says, "It's fine to call me young miss," and, "Because I'm a girl!". The English completely skips over it, and there's a reason why Japanese players still call him a man and are confused as to why he's suddenly transgender in the English version. As for the contents of the dialogue itself, it's just Bridget reaffirming to himself that his path of pursuing masculinity is correct. And that he won't lie to himself and continue to dress as a girl because it's convenient for his parents and village when he wants to do otherwise. Goldlewis calling him a girl and being unsure if he is truly a guy plays into this as it would be a, "Well, ♥♥♥♥, he's not gonna learn unless I whip my ♥♥♥♥ out," moment.

Edit: that's why the flawless run compliments this well. People say they're both real, canon endings, so the chronology would be like:
1. "Yeah, call me a girl because you're stupid, old man,"
2. "Ky, how do I stop being called a girl?" -> "Dress as a guy and don't give a ♥♥♥♥ lol"

[Prankman]

Publicado originalmente por Providence 777:

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Wrong to both, because you can literally hear more dialogue than the final line posted in that 4chan screenshot.

The post in the screenshot also contains a link to a dropbox containing the audio of the last line specifically.

The last line is not what's being disputed, the CONTEXT that line is interpreted in is what makes it different.

The English one added context that was not intended in the original.

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

I don't need to understand fluent Japanese to be able to tell that Bridget's sentence does not, in fact, end with "o jō chande īdesuyo"

No, but you do need "something" to understand that context was added in the English VO, and the screenshot shows the download link to the rest of the audio. The important part in dispute is the content BEFORE that last line, because it informs you on how to understand the rest of the dialogue.

Dude, the Dropbox link in that thread doesn't even work, and even if it did, I don't need it because I can *play the game and hear the dialogue.* And I'm not talking about the English VO, because it is all present in Japanese. I should know, because I play the game with Japanese audio.

Publicado originalmente por Leriko:

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

I don't need to understand fluent Japanese to be able to tell that Bridget's sentence does not, in fact, end with "o jō chande īdesuyo", as the screenshot suggests, but instead ends with the declaration of her being a girl. She says, specifically, 女の子ですから immediately after the "Cowgirl is fine" line. That is a fact. It's in the game. In Japanese. Because it happens in the original version and is *not* an addition of the English translation. No English translators added any dialogue. Period. Stop trusting 4chan for garbage that is easily provable by actually playing the game and stop acting like you know better than professional translators.

Considering my earlier linguistic explanation, it's obvious sarcasm on Bridget's part, and I thought that was obvious... Guess not. But yeah, Bridget's "I'm a girl!" line is clear sarcasm given the linguistic and lore context. I'm not the one claiming that line doesn't exist, by the way. Also, "professional" translators. lol. It's totally not as if translators of Japanese games/otaku media are constantly caught and called out on malpractice and incorrect and crap translations.

Did we play the same game? Because it is not played as sarcastic in either language at any point. Bridget sounds *ecstatic* when she says it, and Goldlewis isn't joking around when he stumbles but genuinely asks her what she wants him to call her. Why on earth would it be obvious to take this sarcastically when, contextually, the conversation was entirely serious? Goldlewis doesn't joke around, Ky doesn't joke around, Bridget doesn't joke around. Bridget is shown curling up into a fetal position while stressing out over her options. That thing people do when they're being 'sarcastic", I guess, and not when they're being talked through a crisis of identity, which is what's *actually* happening in the scene.

Nothing in Bridget's arcade mode is played as a joke. Bridget is not being sarcastic. There is no linguistic tone to indicate sarcasm or kidding around, and the context of what they're talking about is not played for laughs. Bridget was being serious and that is the only sensible read of the scene in *any* language.

[Leriko]

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Did we play the same game? Because it is not played as sarcastic in either language at any point. Bridget sounds *ecstatic* when she says it, and Goldlewis isn't joking around when he stumbles but genuinely asks her what she wants him to call her. Why on earth would it be obvious to take this sarcastically when, contextually, the conversation was entirely serious? Goldlewis doesn't joke around, Ky doesn't joke around, Bridget doesn't joke around. Bridget is shown curling up into a fetal position while stressing out over her options. That thing people do when they're being 'sarcastic", I guess, and not when they're being talked through a crisis of identity, which is what's *actually* happening in the scene.

Sarcasm works differently in Japanese. It's through the surface meaning of a sentence/word that differs from the actual meaning (re: the linguistic context I've provided). So yes, Bridget's declaration was entirely sarcastic, and Bridget does have a penchant to be a little coy; the story modes of previous games indicate this. His entire anxiety, by the way, comes from his situation with the village, and to some extent his friends and parents. It's simple and obvious if the entire lore of the character is taken into account.

Edit: expanding upon Japanese sarcasm. They do it by being really polite and going along with the words of their "superiors" in a biting manner. So because Goldlewis is older and therefore deserving of respect in Japanese culture, Bridget is sarcastic towards him by being overly polite in letting the old man call Bridget a girl. It's all in the linguistics and culture. Some sources also say sarcasm is extensively used in serious situations in Japan, so take that as you will...

[Prankman]

Publicado originalmente por Leriko:

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Did we play the same game? Because it is not played as sarcastic in either language at any point. Bridget sounds *ecstatic* when she says it, and Goldlewis isn't joking around when he stumbles but genuinely asks her what she wants him to call her. Why on earth would it be obvious to take this sarcastically when, contextually, the conversation was entirely serious? Goldlewis doesn't joke around, Ky doesn't joke around, Bridget doesn't joke around. Bridget is shown curling up into a fetal position while stressing out over her options. That thing people do when they're being 'sarcastic", I guess, and not when they're being talked through a crisis of identity, which is what's *actually* happening in the scene.

Sarcasm works differently in Japanese. It's through the surface meaning of a sentence/word that differs from the actual meaning (re: the linguistic context I've provided). So yes, Bridget's declaration was entirely sarcastic, and Bridget does have a penchant to be a little coy; the story modes of previous games indicate this. His entire anxiety, by the way, comes from his situation with the village, and to some extent his friends and parents. It's simple and obvious if the entire lore of the character is taken into account.

Edit: expanding upon Japanese sarcasm. They do it by being really polite and going along with the words of their "superiors" in a biting manner. So because Goldlewis is older and therefore deserving of respect in Japanese culture, Bridget is sarcastic towards him by being overly polite in letting the old man call Bridget a girl. It's all in the linguistics and culture. Some sources also say sarcasm is extensively used in serious situations in Japan, so take that as you will...

Ah yes, so that's why Bridget has an entire thinly veiled conversation with Ky asking about how difficult it was for him to come out as a Gear. Because Bridget was faking it and decided to declare herself a girl 'sarcastically', something she hasn't done before, and then coincidentally asked a friend about the difficulties of going public when making huge changes in his life. Is that what you're telling me happens?

And you're really going to try and claim this is Bridget being...culturally polite to Goldlewis? Something Bridget has also not done before? I don't recall Bridget taking any crap from Johnny. Or hell, even the first time she meets Goldlewis where she corrects him.

[Anxiety.exe]

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Publicado originalmente por Leriko:

Sarcasm works differently in Japanese. It's through the surface meaning of a sentence/word that differs from the actual meaning (re: the linguistic context I've provided). So yes, Bridget's declaration was entirely sarcastic, and Bridget does have a penchant to be a little coy; the story modes of previous games indicate this. His entire anxiety, by the way, comes from his situation with the village, and to some extent his friends and parents. It's simple and obvious if the entire lore of the character is taken into account.

Ah yes, so that's why Bridget has an entire thinly veiled conversation with Ky asking about how difficult it was for him to come out as a Gear. Because Bridget was faking it and decided to declare herself a girl 'sarcastically', something she hasn't done before, and then coincidentally asked a friend about the difficulties of going public when making huge changes in his life. Is that what you're telling me happens?

You know he's going to say yes. I had a whole thing typed but deleted it all because the lyrics to the song? Nothin. The arcade routes? No one knows. The Glossary? Translation conspiracy. The VA cast voicing happiness for trans representation? Not like they signed a contract with an NDA in it or anything

It's tiring punching brick walls

[Leriko]

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Ah yes, so that's why Bridget has an entire thinly veiled conversation with Ky asking about how difficult it was for him to come out as a Gear. Because Bridget was faking it and decided to declare herself a girl 'sarcastically', something she hasn't done before, and then coincidentally asked a friend about the difficulties of going public when making huge changes in his life. Is that what you're telling me happens?

Yes. Because like how Ky's body is becoming a gear, Bridget himself will undergo physical changes to physically present as a man. It's that simple. They both involve changes in public and personal perceptions of a person.

[Klowers]

Publicado originalmente por Leriko:

Publicado originalmente por Klowers:

Official Translation:

B: I... I don't want to run scared anymore.
B: If I keep faking it like this, I know I'll regret it...
B: So from now on, no matter what... No more lying to myself.
B: Thank you! Both of you!
G: Don't mention it. Happy trails, cowgirl. Or, uh, cowboy...?
B: Cowgirl is fine!
B: Because... I'm a girl!

So what you're saying is after saying that "If I keep faking it like, I know I'll regret it..." and "No more lying to myself." she then immediately decides to start faking that she's a girl because she's annoyed at being misgendered or whatever? Does that actually make any sense?

Unless you think the first three lines are mistranslated as well I'm not sure how this would make any sense.

No, I'm saying it's more like, "Whatever, you can call me a girl because you keep on forgetting I'm a guy despite me telling you a couple times earlier and you're not learning. It's annoying correcting you."
That's the linguistic context of the Japanese version, which on the surface level the dialogue comes across as sarcastic when Bridget says, "It's fine to call me young miss," and, "Because I'm a girl!". The English completely skips over it, and there's a reason why Japanese players still call him a man and are confused as to why he's suddenly transgender in the English version. As for the contents of the dialogue itself, it's just Bridget reaffirming to himself that his path of pursuing masculinity is correct. And that he won't lie to himself and continue to dress as a girl because it's convenient for his parents and village when he wants to do otherwise. Goldlewis calling him a girl and being unsure if he is truly a guy plays into this as it would be a, "Well, ♥♥♥♥, he's not gonna learn unless I whip my ♥♥♥♥ out," moment.

Edit: that's why the flawless run compliments this well. People say they're both real, canon endings, so the chronology would be like:
1. "Yeah, call me a girl because you're stupid, old man,"
2. "Ky, how do I stop being called a girl?" -> "Dress as a guy and don't give a ♥♥♥♥ lol"

This just seems like a massive cope on your part, nothing about the VAs performance during these lines comes off as sarcastic or joking. It makes even less sense considering Goldlewis ALREADY corrected himself in that line.

It also seems to go against basic story writing. Having a character deny a truth about themselves multiple times, resolve to be true to themselves, and then the next time the situation comes up they respond differently to it (their true reaction) is a pretty common trope. They weren't trying to be subtle about that considering it comes literally like 5-10 seconds after she said she won't fake it anymore. The way you seem to think it reads is just bizarre writing.

Another line that comes earlier also strikes me as strange according to your version:

"But it hurts too much. I haven't even told my parents."

...Told them what exactly? That they're a boy? They... They already know that, don't they?
That it hurts? The parents are said to already feel guilty about what they have done, so why would Bridget have to tell them that? It wouldn't be a surprise to them.

[Leriko]

Publicado originalmente por Klowers:

This just seems like a massive cope on your part, nothing about the VAs performance during these lines comes off as sarcastic or joking. It makes even less sense considering Goldlewis ALREADY corrected himself in that line.

It also seems to go against basic story writing. Having a character deny a truth about themselves multiple times, resolve to be true to themselves, and then the next time the situation comes up they respond differently to it (their true reaction) is a pretty common trope. They weren't trying to be subtle about that considering it comes literally like 5-10 seconds after they said they won't fake it anymore. The way you seem to think it reads is just bizarre writing.

Two words: Japanese writing. Seriously. This is a trope in Japanese media that occurs pretty often.

Publicado originalmente por Klowers:

Another line that comes earlier also strikes me as strange according to your version:
"But it hurts too much. I haven't even told my parents."

...Told them what exactly? That they're a boy? They... They already know that, don't they?
That it hurts? The parents are said to already feel guilty about what they have done, so why would Bridget have to tell them that? It wouldn't be a surprise to them.

"Hey, mom, dad, I'm literally changing almost everything about the appearance I've had for 19 years! You won't recognize me anymore because I'll basically look completely different, and it's a major change that's eating me up inside because I think you're too used to me looking like a girl!"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Leriko]

Publicado originalmente por Anxiety.exe:

You know he's going to say yes. I had a whole thing typed but deleted it all because the lyrics to the song? Nothin. The arcade routes? No one knows. The Glossary? Translation conspiracy. The VA cast voicing happiness for trans representation? Not like they signed a contract with an NDA in it or anything

It's tiring punching brick walls

The song lyrics? Talking about how Bridget is afraid of how the town will react to him physically presenting as a man. And the internal struggle it gives. Entire Bridget GG lore.
The arcade routes? A story people don't understand properly.
The Glossary? Mistranslation that completely skips all linguistic and cultural contexts (JP players still say and know he's a man, guys).
The voice actor? Not the first time an English VA spouts random crap on Twitter to fuel their headcanon.

[Prankman]

Publicado originalmente por Anxiety.exe:

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Ah yes, so that's why Bridget has an entire thinly veiled conversation with Ky asking about how difficult it was for him to come out as a Gear. Because Bridget was faking it and decided to declare herself a girl 'sarcastically', something she hasn't done before, and then coincidentally asked a friend about the difficulties of going public when making huge changes in his life. Is that what you're telling me happens?

You know he's going to say yes. I had a whole thing typed but deleted it all because the lyrics to the song? Nothin. The arcade routes? No one knows. The Glossary? Translation conspiracy. The VA cast voicing happiness for trans representation? Not like they signed a contract with an NDA in it or anything

It's tiring punching brick walls

Yeah apparently a song with lyrics about feeling disconnected from where she grew up and learning to stop letting other people change her, and literally removing a veil of depression from over her to see the sky clearly isn't enough of a context clue somehow. Her theme song is practically screaming it. Daisuke could release an hour long video essay tomorrow about Bridget being a girl and people would still find a way to discredit it.

Publicado originalmente por Leriko:

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Ah yes, so that's why Bridget has an entire thinly veiled conversation with Ky asking about how difficult it was for him to come out as a Gear. Because Bridget was faking it and decided to declare herself a girl 'sarcastically', something she hasn't done before, and then coincidentally asked a friend about the difficulties of going public when making huge changes in his life. Is that what you're telling me happens?

Yes. Because like how Ky's body is becoming a gear, Bridget himself will undergo physical changes to physically present as a man. It's that simple. They both involve changes in public and personal perceptions of a person.

Did you just actually tell me that you think the character who was born biologically male will need to undergo physical changes to present as a man? And use that to argue *against* her being trans?

It makes sense to you that the character who's already been presenting themselves as male for the past seven-odd years between Guilty Gear X and Strive would have a theme song talking all about uncertainty and finally allowing change in their lives regardless of what others might think, talk with several characters in the game about finally being able to allow themselves truth, and be talking about the thing they've already been doing for the last seven years? That makes sense to you? That's the read you got from the story? Not that they finally decided to make an actual change? Just... keep on doing the same thing, after an entire story mode about being stressed over doing exactly that?

This really is just hitting a brick wall. I'm done.

[Leriko]

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Yeah apparently a song with lyrics about feeling disconnected from where she grew up and learning to stop letting other people change her, and literally removing a veil of depression from over her to see the sky clearly isn't enough of a context clue somehow. Her theme song is practically screaming it. Daisuke could release an hour long video essay tomorrow about Bridget being a girl and people would still find a way to discredit it.

Then let's agree to disagree. It's obvious it can be interpreted either way.

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

Did you just actually tell me that you think the character who was born biologically male will need to undergo physical changes to present as a man? And use that to argue *against* her being trans?

Yes. The way he speaks, dresses, acts, et cetera. Doesn't matter if he was born as a man. He's looked like and acted like a girl his entire life. If you wanna play it by the trans allegory, it's detransitioning. It's that simple.

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

It makes sense to you that the character who's already been presenting themselves as male for the past seven-odd years between Guilty Gear X and Strive would have a theme song talking all about uncertainty and finally allowing change in their lives regardless of what others might think, talk with several characters in the game about finally being able to allow themselves truth, and be talking about the thing they've already been doing for the last seven years? That makes sense to you? That's the read you got from the story? Not that they finally decided to make an actual change? Just... keep on doing the same thing, after an entire story mode about being stressed over doing exactly that?

You're literally ignoring all the previous things I've said lol. Cope.

Publicado originalmente por Prankman:

This really is just hitting a brick wall. I'm done.

:D

[Prankman]

Publicado originalmente por Leriko:

Publicado originalmente por Anxiety.exe:

You know he's going to say yes. I had a whole thing typed but deleted it all because the lyrics to the song? Nothin. The arcade routes? No one knows. The Glossary? Translation conspiracy. The VA cast voicing happiness for trans representation? Not like they signed a contract with an NDA in it or anything

It's tiring punching brick walls

The song lyrics? Talking about how Bridget is afraid of how the town will react to him physically presenting as a man. And the internal struggle it gives. Entire Bridget GG lore.
The arcade routes? A story people don't understand properly.
The Glossary? Mistranslation that completely skips all linguistic and cultural contexts (JP players still say and know he's a man, guys).
The voice actor? Not the first time an English VA spouts random crap on Twitter to fuel their headcanon.

Okay sure. Even though *every other character in the game* has their theme song's lyrics written about their present day selves, let's assume that Bridget's isn't for no good reason.

The curse plotline was resolved, again, *six years* before Strive so why would the Strive theme song be about that? Why would we get a theme song for Baiken about her post-revenge life, about Leo's dealing with survivor's guilt, about Jack-O moving on from living in Aria's shadow, and then randomly get Bridget's theme song about a plot point that hasn't been relevant since Accent Core?

[Prankman]

Yeah, de-transition from the thing Bridget was already presenting as. That makes sense. The mental gymnastics you're performing to prove she isn't a girl are impressive.