I'm happy that Bridget is back, but... (Civil discussion only)

[LNX BDSKZ]

[Forward: I know what a cesspit of a discussion gender identity in this community can be, especially on the hellscape of Steam forums, but I want to politely request everyone remain polite and not to feed any trolls as I'm sick of all these dramas]

Bridget being trans defeats the whole
point of his/her/their original character, his whole point was that he wanted to prove to people he was just as valid of a man even being femmine and for people to respect his cis identity, they've completely 180ed it now and it doesn't make sense.
I'm fully on board with the large majority of nonconforming identies, I'm a Bi guy who likes femminity and finds femboys and trans girls very cute, while I don't believe in Nonbinary as a concept applying to IRL humans (outside of temporary cases and rare exceptions like intersex) I still do my best to respect Enby peeps and their pronouns, as long as you aren't some kinda absurd Otherkin if you're a decent person I'll respect you and try not to question you much.

But this feels like such a fundamental misunderstanding of Bridget's character and is the exact polar opposite of what their story was about, it's already bad enough the toxic side of the Trans community is frequently trying to pressure happily cis nonconforming guys into joining them but now the character who was practically the OG femboy in gaming has been completely flipped.
Bridget's message was about being able to be girly and feminine but still being every bit as much of a valid man as anyone else, now they're just another cracking the eggshell story, those stories are perfectly fine and often even good but that's not what Bridget was supposed to be about.

He was forced to be raised as a girl due to a curse stigma from his village despite him wanting to be a boy, now all of a sudden they've decided they always wanted to be a girl and have transitioned?
TF kinda a message is that, it's harmful if anything, I'm all on board for trans characters and dysphoriac people absolutely deserve characters to relate to but Bridget is now just accepting the labels that were forced onto them against their will that he spent the majority of X2 protesting about.

I remember the whole drama about the Testament redesign and honestly I'm feeling quite a bit more bitter of them in retrospect, I was on board at first and was a defender if anything but this is 2 characters in a row this sorta thing has happened with.
They changed Teste so wildy that they're practically a different character now who resembles their past version in name alone, different design, different moveset, different personality, different gender, I wasn't as opposed then as it was the first case of it (character wise not moveset wise) but on reflection I'm not sure how I feel about it.
I like the New Testament but they've practically replaced the Old Testament and I liked him a lot too, it's kinda a slap in a face to his old fans to basically replace him with a completely different character.
Not to mention how butchered aspects were like the long pause victory line and the amount of clashing pronouns with all the cast and GG World misgendering them.

This series has always been progressive, those who deny that are blind, but if the devs want to cover these themes and create trans representation, why not do that with new original characters instead of slapping it on preexisting established ones?...

Honestly this feels like a bit of a monkeys paw, I've always wanted Bridget back but it doesn't fit their character the story they've been given now, and on reflection Teste was a gargantuan leap in logic even if I like them.
I'm still going to end up buying the DLC, and I love this game, but this decison really confuses me.

Long post, but wanted to lay down my thoughts on what I've seen and heard, hope they're appreciated, I know these forums can be toxic AF sometimes especially with this subject and would really appreciate it if we all did our part to avoid another braindead flame war.
I hope we can have a nice friendly discussion about the subject and keep things respectful to everyone, and as a reminder DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS, some people will probably try to cause chaos so don't fall for the bait.

Anyway I haven't slept properly and might end up falling asleep before I can properly respond to everyone so just letting you know in advance, hope everyone's enjoying Bridget regardless of what you think about the situation and looking forward to what the FGC has in general with SF6, Marie in Skullgirls, a new Fatal Fury, DBFZ Rollback, Multiversus, and etc.
Peace.

[Prankman]

So like, I keep seeing it said that we don’t know how Bridget’s parents acted, but isn’t it canon that Bridget loves her parents deeply and her motivation for becoming a bounty hunter and presenting as a boy was specifically to help them die to the immense guilt they felt? People keep saying Bridget was groomed as a child, but I remember Bridget’s parents being portrayed was extremely remorseful for what they had to do to prevent Bridget from being executed, and got her the best education possible to try and make up for it. Suddenly contextualizing this as grooming feels sort of disingenuous to me given the circumstances are so wildly different.

[Mat.W]

Originally posted by Prankman:

So like, I keep seeing it said that we don’t know how Bridget’s parents acted, but isn’t it canon that Bridget loves her parents deeply and her motivation for becoming a bounty hunter and presenting as a boy was specifically to help them die to the immense guilt they felt? People keep saying Bridget was groomed as a child, but I remember Bridget’s parents being portrayed was extremely remorseful for what they had to do to prevent Bridget from being executed, and got her the best education possible to try and make up for it. Suddenly contextualizing this as grooming feels sort of disingenuous to me given the circumstances are so wildly different.

Bridget's parents do love her and did feel bad about it, but no matter how we put it, Bridget had an identity forced on her against her will. I think it's not hard to see why people would find this situation pretty wrong. This situation can unfortunately very easily be seen as Bridget just submitting to the idea which would naturally not be a good lesson for anyone.

If they really wanted to do this I think they should have written this a lot better, most discussions I see about this is people filling in the blanks themselves with what makes the most logical sense to them. With a story like this the game should do this for us, unless they wanted it to be ambiguous on purpose which this only tries to do with one ending, so it leaves mixed messaging despite still playing into the message of self acceptance.
A story about accepting who you are is a great story, and very fitting for a character like Bridget, who already proved the superstitions of her home village wrong, and is trying to figure out herself now, but again I think it's easy to see why this has such a mixed reception.

[LNX BDSKZ]

Originally posted by Prankman:

So like, I keep seeing it said that we don’t know how Bridget’s parents acted, but isn’t it canon that Bridget loves her parents deeply and her motivation for becoming a bounty hunter and presenting as a boy was specifically to help them die to the immense guilt they felt? People keep saying Bridget was groomed as a child, but I remember Bridget’s parents being portrayed was extremely remorseful for what they had to do to prevent Bridget from being executed, and got her the best education possible to try and make up for it. Suddenly contextualizing this as grooming feels sort of disingenuous to me given the circumstances are so wildly different.

TBH it's been a while since I've played X/X2 and I might need a refresher, from what I recall though they did it with good intentions trying to save his life and he reluctantly complied, but as soon as he left his village he immediately set on a quest to prove his manhood and make people respect him for who he is and he repeatedly reminded and reaffirmed that he was male.
But yes you make a very good point, calling it grooming is definitely an exaggeration that misrepresents their intentions, he would've been killed otherwise.
It's a bit of a leap people are making but it's understandable how some would consider it such, as while they did in for a noble reason it was harmful and most likely upset Bridget even if we didn't look too far into that in-game.

Still an extremely unfortunate character to choose to attempt to make Trans rep though, as it makes the message interpretable to one along the lines of "People forcing labels and identities onto you without your consent or approval may just know the real you and be right actually" (A bit hyperbolic but you get my point).
Again this series has always had kinda jank rough writing but the new direction and purpose of Bridget are the polar opposite of the original, and that's very unfortunate both in terms of how poorly done the moral turned out and in that it removes one of the original established cases of a cross-dressing character in gaming from the crossdressing/gay/etc community just to shift them over to the trans community for no apparent reason.
Really it was inevitable there was going to be a divide and controversy considering Bridgets legacy, he used to be (alongside Baiken) one of the two characters who were more popular than the series itself for a time, before Strive there were more people who knew who the two of them via fanart and such than there were people who had played the games themselves.
I don't know how ArcSys didn't see this coming, some degree of backlash was certian.

Anyway I'm glad that we've mostly gotten over the trolls and aggressives and are mostly just discussing this together now, but I think I might either stop replying or at least cut back as I'm starting to get tired out from this conversation as it's gone on for several days now and is a difficult topic.
Thanks for everyone who came here with an actual conversation in mind, it really is appreciated, I know there's a lot of drama hungry people on these forums and it's nice when you see people talk in good faith.

[Prankman]

Originally posted by Mat.W:

Originally posted by Prankman:

So like, I keep seeing it said that we don’t know how Bridget’s parents acted, but isn’t it canon that Bridget loves her parents deeply and her motivation for becoming a bounty hunter and presenting as a boy was specifically to help them die to the immense guilt they felt? People keep saying Bridget was groomed as a child, but I remember Bridget’s parents being portrayed was extremely remorseful for what they had to do to prevent Bridget from being executed, and got her the best education possible to try and make up for it. Suddenly contextualizing this as grooming feels sort of disingenuous to me given the circumstances are so wildly different.

Bridget's parents do love her and did feel bad about it, but no matter how we put it, Bridget had an identity forced on her against her will. I think it's not hard to see why people would find this situation pretty wrong. This situation can unfortunately very easily be seen as Bridget just submitting to the idea which would naturally not be a good lesson for anyone.

If they really wanted to do this I think they should have written this a lot better, most discussions I see about this is people filling in the blanks themselves with what makes the most logical sense to them. With a story like this the game should do this for us, unless they wanted it to be ambiguous on purpose which this only tries to do with one ending, so it leaves mixed messaging despite still playing into the message of self acceptance.
A story about accepting who you are is a great story, and very fitting for a character like Bridget, who already proved the superstitions of her home village wrong, and is trying to figure out herself now, but again I think it's easy to see why this has such a mixed reception.

Yeah the storytelling format for GG leaves a lot to be desired for something like this. With Testament there was no ambiguity because we had outside confirmation, plus Testament didn’t have such a rocky backstory.

I totally get why it’s uncomfortable even if it’s not technically grooming. Bridget was essentially forced to present as two different identities already, a woman to appease her town and a man to try and prove them wrong. Having her decide the former works for her in the long run is extremely odd, even if it still fits the themes of choosing your own path. I don’t think having her decide to be a boy just to spite other people is super comfortable either, even if on a surface level it reads better than choosing something that was previously forced upon her. Having her decide not to be a girl because of others telling her to do it before is still, technically, chaining her identity to what others think. The game just doesn’t get to expand on that enough in less than twenty lines of dialogue.

The main thing I take contention with is people trying to flat out make things up. There’s a huge difference between being uncomfortable with the change due to Bridget’s traumatic history, and trying to claim that the Flawless ending “actually totally confirms Bridget is a boy you guys” and doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to discredit the Hard Mode ending. Like, literally nobody thought there were “bad” routes in Arcade Mode until Bridget was released, and that reads like an awfully convenient way to cover up the real intent behind the argument to me. We are supposed to believe that all Arcade Modes can be taken as part of a larger narrative, until specifically a character coming out as trans is a plot point, after which people will pick apart literally every vowel in the text to prove it wrong despite the text being about as subtle as a freight train.

Like, seriously, I’ve seen people arguing that the conversation with Ky in the Flawless Route is not, in fact, a logical continuation of the story told in Hard Mode like literally every other Arcade Mode story, but is Bridget proclaiming she either A) wants to be a boy like Ky or B) wants to become a literal Gear. Like, okay, you want to say the “””bad ending””” is bad because Bridget gives into supposed pressure to identify as a girl, but it’s okay if she builds her entire identity around the inspiration of another person in the Flawless Ending (Ky)? It’s not a good look.

Thematically the only way Flawless works is if Bridget came to her own conclusions and is *not* emulating Ky in any literal sense beyond envying his strength of character and confidence, but that hypocrisy is lost on people I guess.

There’s just a whole lot of mental gymnastics to try and block out the one ending where Bridget explicitly states her identity, in favor of cherry picking meaning the text of a separate ending that only makes contextual sense if the former ending is true. I’m not saying Bridget’s story isn’t messy, or that there aren’t implications worth discussing regarding her upbringing, but the execution of the storytelling is an entirely separate animal to people legitimately just making crap up to justify continuing to call Bridget a boy.

I don’t know, it just seems like a whole lot more people than before suddenly care about poking holes in the GG story than before, and only specifically when dealing with a trans character. That just seems a little too convenient to me.

[Mat.W]

Originally posted by Prankman:

Originally posted by Mat.W:

Bridget's parents do love her and did feel bad about it, but no matter how we put it, Bridget had an identity forced on her against her will. I think it's not hard to see why people would find this situation pretty wrong. This situation can unfortunately very easily be seen as Bridget just submitting to the idea which would naturally not be a good lesson for anyone.

If they really wanted to do this I think they should have written this a lot better, most discussions I see about this is people filling in the blanks themselves with what makes the most logical sense to them. With a story like this the game should do this for us, unless they wanted it to be ambiguous on purpose which this only tries to do with one ending, so it leaves mixed messaging despite still playing into the message of self acceptance.
A story about accepting who you are is a great story, and very fitting for a character like Bridget, who already proved the superstitions of her home village wrong, and is trying to figure out herself now, but again I think it's easy to see why this has such a mixed reception.

Yeah the storytelling format for GG leaves a lot to be desired for something like this. With Testament there was no ambiguity because we had outside confirmation, plus Testament didn’t have such a rocky backstory.

I totally get why it’s uncomfortable even if it’s not technically grooming. Bridget was essentially forced to present as two different identities already, a woman to appease her town and a man to try and prove them wrong. Having her decide the former works for her in the long run is extremely odd, even if it still fits the themes of choosing your own path. I don’t think having her decide to be a boy just to spite other people is super comfortable either, even if on a surface level it reads better than choosing something that was previously forced upon her. Having her decide not to be a girl because of others telling her to do it before is still, technically, chaining her identity to what others think. The game just doesn’t get to expand on that enough in less than twenty lines of dialogue.

The main thing I take contention with is people trying to flat out make things up. There’s a huge difference between being uncomfortable with the change due to Bridget’s traumatic history, and trying to claim that the Flawless ending “actually totally confirms Bridget is a boy you guys” and doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to discredit the Hard Mode ending. Like, literally nobody thought there were “bad” routes in Arcade Mode until Bridget was released, and that reads like an awfully convenient way to cover up the real intent behind the argument to me. We are supposed to believe that all Arcade Modes can be taken as part of a larger narrative, until specifically a character coming out as trans is a plot point, after which people will pick apart literally every vowel in the text to prove it wrong despite the text being about as subtle as a freight train.

Like, seriously, I’ve seen people arguing that the conversation with Ky in the Flawless Route is not, in fact, a logical continuation of the story told in Hard Mode like literally every other Arcade Mode story, but is Bridget proclaiming she either A) wants to be a boy like Ky or B) wants to become a literal Gear. Like, okay, you want to say the “””bad ending””” is bad because Bridget gives into supposed pressure to identify as a girl, but it’s okay if she builds her entire identity around the inspiration of another person in the Flawless Ending (Ky)? It’s not a good look.

Thematically the only way Flawless works is if Bridget came to her own conclusions and is *not* emulating Ky in any literal sense beyond envying his strength of character and confidence, but that hypocrisy is lost on people I guess.

There’s just a whole lot of mental gymnastics to try and block out the one ending where Bridget explicitly states her identity, in favor of cherry picking meaning the text of a separate ending that only makes contextual sense if the former ending is true. I’m not saying Bridget’s story isn’t messy, or that there aren’t implications worth discussing regarding her upbringing, but the execution of the storytelling is an entirely separate animal to people legitimately just making crap up to justify continuing to call Bridget a boy.

I don’t know, it just seems like a whole lot more people than before suddenly care about poking holes in the GG story than before, and only specifically when dealing with a trans character. That just seems a little too convenient to me.

I agree people definitely did some coping with whole "bad" or "good" ending thing that was just kinda grasping at straws. Like I said previously I do think one is more open ended than the other but they all play into the same theme so just ignoring the other because Bridget says it outright herself is a bit silly.

I guess some people really were this attached to Bridget, hell there is more who people know Bridget or Baiken than there is people who play GG lol. I guess Bridget just resonated with people too much and the change ruined it for them I don't know. Personally I think this is messy like previously stated but I still like Bridget as a character, it's just a fun character. Maybe leaving it ambiguous would be the best way to go with this, so people can make their own headcannons as to what Bridget identifies as and the discourse would of course unfortunately still exist but there would be significantly less of it.

This topic is interesting because it's not all just black and white, some people will be happy with this, some won't be, ArcSys probably won't comment on it now because that would likely be a backlash either way. It's a weird situation but Bridget is still Bridget.

For all we know maybe they're setting up a bigger story arc for the sequel or something who knows lol

[Doko]

Originally posted by Total Saikou:

Yeah, the implication is very sketchy imo. It's a right-wing stereotype about LGBT folks repackaged as a coming out story... It's like the equivalent of having a character come out as gay after remembering that they were molested as a child Oh Dear God will they do that with Venom???

It feels like a step backwards from Testament's reveal, their representation didn't have this kind of backwards messaging.

I feel like they could have gone about this in a better way, like say, making an entirely new character be trans.

Not only would that appeal to Trans folk in general, but it would also add a new member to the overall roster, instead of what we're seeing now, in which an existing character is being completely shifted, which just looks like pandering and has caused a divide amongst the community as well as massive twitter arguments left and right (Also the whole grooming aspect makes the trans movement for that character look both forced and really creepy).

[Döktor Jönes]

I will personally take a time-machine, travel back in time and persuade Daisuke that he makes Bridget a biological girl, but doesn't change the story.

Because that would make the people that pave their twitter profiles with pride flags going "REEEEEEEEEEEE"

[RE:Deemer]

Originally posted by Axelhander:

I think all of the following things are entirely un-productive:

* Being mad about Bridget going by she/her, they/them, or he/him.

* Calling anyone a transphobe who uses he/him innocently and/or because, to them, that is how this character is most memorable and impactful. (Though anyone peddling transphobic nonsense is fair game to ridicule.)

* Believing that Daisuke and ArcSys did what they did out of malice or cynicism.
________

That all out of the way...

Me personally, I dig Bridget's story. Accepting who they are, even in the context of having an identity forced upon them in the past, is a complex issue.

And complex issues don't need clear cut answers.

+1

[BabyVox]

tbh i 100 percent agree w/OP but there's a mod w/chest/booty so she's gurl now :)

jokes aside, it feels MAD panderbear with testament & bridget. I just hope if they do this again please for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ goodness sakes throw out ANY political talk on either side. tired of hearing it. Not because i do or dont agree with any certain point. i see both sides and despite me not being the demographic (apart from maybe playstyle) i think it's a gigantic waste of time as only maybe 5% of people talking will change their mind on anything. everyone is pretty much stuck in their ways & at this point anything else seems like a huge waste.

appreciate everyone's views/perspectives tho

[brocolie]

Originally posted by Nuuance:

tbh i 100 percent agree w/OP but there's a mod w/chest/booty so she's gurl now :)

jokes aside, it feels MAD panderbear with testament & bridget. I just hope if they do this again please for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ goodness sakes throw out ANY political talk on either side. tired of hearing it. Not because i do or dont agree with any certain point. i see both sides and despite me not being the demographic (apart from maybe playstyle) i think it's a gigantic waste of time as only maybe 5% of people talking will change their mind on anything. everyone is pretty much stuck in their ways & at this point anything else seems like a huge waste.

appreciate everyone's views/perspectives tho

imho the issue is that a character development where a character comes out as trans shouldn't be "political" in the first place.

In any case it's also not like this kind of thing never happened before with other identities of all sorts either. On the contrary, this is the norm. It's one of the consequences of living in a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ discriminatory society (and one of the least damaging consequences at that).

[brocolie]

Like, I wonder how many of the people insisting she didn't come out as trans think that this would mean she made changes to her body, and they don't like that idea.

And therefore they're doing that thing where any potential argument convinces them they're right, no matter how flimsy it may be, and despite there being mountains of evidence to the contrary.