I'm happy that Bridget is back, but... (Civil discussion only)

[LNX BDSKZ]

[Forward: I know what a cesspit of a discussion gender identity in this community can be, especially on the hellscape of Steam forums, but I want to politely request everyone remain polite and not to feed any trolls as I'm sick of all these dramas]

Bridget being trans defeats the whole
point of his/her/their original character, his whole point was that he wanted to prove to people he was just as valid of a man even being femmine and for people to respect his cis identity, they've completely 180ed it now and it doesn't make sense.
I'm fully on board with the large majority of nonconforming identies, I'm a Bi guy who likes femminity and finds femboys and trans girls very cute, while I don't believe in Nonbinary as a concept applying to IRL humans (outside of temporary cases and rare exceptions like intersex) I still do my best to respect Enby peeps and their pronouns, as long as you aren't some kinda absurd Otherkin if you're a decent person I'll respect you and try not to question you much.

But this feels like such a fundamental misunderstanding of Bridget's character and is the exact polar opposite of what their story was about, it's already bad enough the toxic side of the Trans community is frequently trying to pressure happily cis nonconforming guys into joining them but now the character who was practically the OG femboy in gaming has been completely flipped.
Bridget's message was about being able to be girly and feminine but still being every bit as much of a valid man as anyone else, now they're just another cracking the eggshell story, those stories are perfectly fine and often even good but that's not what Bridget was supposed to be about.

He was forced to be raised as a girl due to a curse stigma from his village despite him wanting to be a boy, now all of a sudden they've decided they always wanted to be a girl and have transitioned?
TF kinda a message is that, it's harmful if anything, I'm all on board for trans characters and dysphoriac people absolutely deserve characters to relate to but Bridget is now just accepting the labels that were forced onto them against their will that he spent the majority of X2 protesting about.

I remember the whole drama about the Testament redesign and honestly I'm feeling quite a bit more bitter of them in retrospect, I was on board at first and was a defender if anything but this is 2 characters in a row this sorta thing has happened with.
They changed Teste so wildy that they're practically a different character now who resembles their past version in name alone, different design, different moveset, different personality, different gender, I wasn't as opposed then as it was the first case of it (character wise not moveset wise) but on reflection I'm not sure how I feel about it.
I like the New Testament but they've practically replaced the Old Testament and I liked him a lot too, it's kinda a slap in a face to his old fans to basically replace him with a completely different character.
Not to mention how butchered aspects were like the long pause victory line and the amount of clashing pronouns with all the cast and GG World misgendering them.

This series has always been progressive, those who deny that are blind, but if the devs want to cover these themes and create trans representation, why not do that with new original characters instead of slapping it on preexisting established ones?...

Honestly this feels like a bit of a monkeys paw, I've always wanted Bridget back but it doesn't fit their character the story they've been given now, and on reflection Teste was a gargantuan leap in logic even if I like them.
I'm still going to end up buying the DLC, and I love this game, but this decison really confuses me.

Long post, but wanted to lay down my thoughts on what I've seen and heard, hope they're appreciated, I know these forums can be toxic AF sometimes especially with this subject and would really appreciate it if we all did our part to avoid another braindead flame war.
I hope we can have a nice friendly discussion about the subject and keep things respectful to everyone, and as a reminder DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS, some people will probably try to cause chaos so don't fall for the bait.

Anyway I haven't slept properly and might end up falling asleep before I can properly respond to everyone so just letting you know in advance, hope everyone's enjoying Bridget regardless of what you think about the situation and looking forward to what the FGC has in general with SF6, Marie in Skullgirls, a new Fatal Fury, DBFZ Rollback, Multiversus, and etc.
Peace.

[KnightOfOrder]

Publicado originalmente por Anxiety.exe:

Publicado originalmente por KnightOfOrder:

Perhaps Mr. Facts and Logic could educate himself a little on otoko no ko culture before acting like his claim is the objective truth.

oh good point. I will weigh that against the song lyrics, the coming out as a girl in both english and japanese voice overs, the listing of Bridget in game as a female character both in coding for intro voiceovers and in the glossary, and the fact that Japan is currently undergoing a political shift after the passing of Shinzo Abe which is very apparent as Nintendo now supports Gay Marriage openly.

But I am pretty sure the one valid niche thing you mentioned holds up against that, right?

It does, in fact. Being that it's the entire basis of the character and how that subculture has little in common with the western concept of transgender. You mentioning mentioning the glossary further helps me since he's referred as a boy in the japanese description.

Of course, I wouldn't expect westerners obsessed with their own ideology to understand such differences...

[KnightOfOrder]

To further elaborate because you mentioned the Shinzo Abe thing as if it was relevant at all, Guilty Gear has had an openly gay character for decades, you'd know that if you actually played the series you're so desperately trying to gaslight for.

[RadioactiveMicrobe]

Publicado originalmente por KnightOfOrder:

Publicado originalmente por Anxiety.exe:

oh good point. I will weigh that against the song lyrics, the coming out as a girl in both english and japanese voice overs, the listing of Bridget in game as a female character both in coding for intro voiceovers and in the glossary, and the fact that Japan is currently undergoing a political shift after the passing of Shinzo Abe which is very apparent as Nintendo now supports Gay Marriage openly.

But I am pretty sure the one valid niche thing you mentioned holds up against that, right?

It does, in fact. Being that it's the entire basis of the character and how that subculture has little in common with the western concept of transgender. You mentioning mentioning the glossary further helps me since he's referred as a boy in the japanese description.

Of course, I wouldn't expect westerners obsessed with their own ideology to understand such differences...

Just like how that subculture has little in common with non-binary too right? Silly westerners. Oh wait....

[KnightOfOrder]

Publicado originalmente por RadioactiveMicrobe:

Publicado originalmente por KnightOfOrder:

It does, in fact. Being that it's the entire basis of the character and how that subculture has little in common with the western concept of transgender. You mentioning mentioning the glossary further helps me since he's referred as a boy in the japanese description.

Of course, I wouldn't expect westerners obsessed with their own ideology to understand such differences...

Just like how that subculture has little in common with non-binary too right? Silly westerners. Oh wait....

It does have little to do with it, yeah. Silly westerners indeed.

[RadioactiveMicrobe]

Publicado originalmente por KnightOfOrder:

Publicado originalmente por RadioactiveMicrobe:

Just like how that subculture has little in common with non-binary too right? Silly westerners. Oh wait....

It does have little to do with it, yeah. Silly westerners indeed.

Damn those silly Japanese westerners who confirmed Testament is non-binary. Don't those Japanese people who are Japanese know that Japanese people don't care about that?????

[KnightOfOrder]

Lol nice strawman bro, I never said that japanese people weren't aware of that ideological movement, just that the subculture Bridget belongs to has very little in common with it.

But hey, your strawman further validated my claim that ideological obsessed people just can't understand such a different culture from their own, thanks for that!

[RadioactiveMicrobe]

Publicado originalmente por KnightOfOrder:

Lol nice strawman bro, I never said that japanese people weren't aware of that ideological movement, just that the subculture Bridget belongs to has very little in common with it.

But hey, your strawman further validated my claim that ideological obsessed people just can't understand such a different culture from their own, thanks for that!

Yeah I'm sure random steam weeb knows more about Japanese subcultures and what the developers intended than the developers themselves. Be sure to tell them that

[KnightOfOrder]

I know more than you, at least. But hey you seem to have some insider info on the developers opinion on the subject, by all means share with the class! End this argument once and for all brother!

[RadioactiveMicrobe]

Publicado originalmente por KnightOfOrder:

I know more than you, at least. But hey you seem to have some insider info on the developers opinion on the subject, by all means share with the class! End this argument once and for all brother!

Sure read the subtitles in the game. Maybe go on Twitter where the voice actors are retweeting "Bridget is trans" tweets. But I'm sure have the inside scoop about how that actually secretly not how it is because Reasons

[KnightOfOrder]

Western translators and VAs =/= developers (japanese or otherwise)

Surely you are not so bad faith that you can understand the difference... right? Right???

Publicado originalmente por RadioactiveMicrobe:

But I'm sure have the inside scoop about how that actually secretly not how it is because Reasons

Can you try writing that one again in non-seething english please?

[Birdee808]

Publicado originalmente por Duke Nukem:

Quite daring for Arc to make their first transgender character be someone who was known to be groomed by their parents to act and dress as the opposite gender
very spicy

Art imitates life.

[Lunar Shower]

Publicado originalmente por KnightOfOrder:

Western translators and VAs =/= developers (japanese or otherwise)

Surely you are not so bad faith that you can understand the difference... right? Right???

Publicado originalmente por RadioactiveMicrobe:

But I'm sure have the inside scoop about how that actually secretly not how it is because Reasons

Can you try writing that one again in non-seething english please?

To be fair, while I haven't kept up with the exchange here, in this case Western Translators/VA's and/or localization aren't to blame, as Bridget directly says in Japanese that "Cowgirl is fine", even without understanding Japanese the honorific "chan" typically refers to girls and/or children, or as a stretch, cute/something cute.

Of course, whether its something you agree with as far as a direction for the character is up to you in the end, but I did at least want to clear this much up, as while I'm all against localization teams censoring or changing the intent of the original creators, this doesn't seem at all like that's the case here as far as in game interactions and dialogue from the self same ending goes that has as many people as it does up in arms.

[ness]

If anything, I think this is an issue with how limited GG's storytelling is. I initially had the same thought as you (it was obviously a betrayal of Bridget's backstory right?).

After thinking about it, the more I came to appreciate it. Bridget did accomplish her goal, which is a win for every 2nd-same-gendered child currently and afterwards. Bridget still didn't feel happy with her life and felt as if she wasn't complete (just imagine how all the acting like a female and stating your a male on your hunts and all of that could mess with your head).

Bridget ultimately felt most comfortable with female. Initially this seems self defeating, but ultimately Bridget's happiness in the end is what matters. It's a messy and convoluted transition but I imagine all transitions are. I personally believe it's a far stronger message to have a character go with the option that makes them happy (no matter the circumstances) than the option that makes the most sense for the story arc.

Also no the different endings do not mean separate things. One just has Bridget confirm her transition with Goldlewis before presumably telling her parents and the other is Bridget gaining the strength from Ky to tell her parents.

Hope this cleared some things up. Again, the storytelling is missing without some hard thinking but in the end with transitions, it's the end happiness of the person that matters the most, not the plot.

Also no, I don't think this is an agenda Arc is pushing. I think with GG's relatively niche community, it seems like every character has a huge fanbase. It just so happened that two hugely missed and popular GGXX characters came back and had some kind of identity issues in past games. If Arc made twitter posts screaming celebration about Testament and Bridget's personal changes then I would feel like it was all for internet points but I'm more on the side of the changes were made more carefully than most media.

[Mat.W]

As much of a mess as this situation is even Bridget's theme outright presents Bridget's identity issues. Considering the subject matter at hand I think there is no way there would ever be a civil discussion about this, both sides would try to fight each other as much as they can. I can see both sides of the argument, there's nothing wrong with people wanting to associate with a character they like, at the same time I can also see why Bridget's past would make people uncomfortable with this. I personally also think it was counter productive. At the end of the day this situation should really be a nothing burger, Bridget is still Bridget, aside from the pronoun change the character is still the same, but people get personal attachments to those things, by either growing up with it, or maybe the series getting them through a tough spot in life or something. I doubt ArcSys will comment on this unless it gets super badly out of hand which it likely never will. This didn't really get much coverage when it comes to news outlets either, I've only seen like Kotaku make an article about it but that's it, this is community war, it's unfortunate that it exists at all, but we can't really stop it anymore. This sucks, but this is the internet after all.

[LNX BDSKZ]

I agree it pretty unlikely it's some attempt at earning brownie points and it certainly isn't a localisation issue (The localisation IS certianly bad aside from the actors being passionate, but it's bad for different reasons like inconsistency and sloppiness), this very much looks like a misguided new direction by the actual creators of the series.
This series has obviously never really been strong in the writing department, the lore is fun and wacky but undeniably trashy, I feel the devs genuinely tried to do something cool and "innovative" for their characters and ultimately botched the planning and execution.

I'm definitely on the side that these changes are for the worse and either poorly executed or outright harmful depending on interpretation, but the people trying to write this off as "Woke propaganda" or "Localisations errors and typos" or any mixture of the two are plain foolish to put it politely, this is the genuine vision the creators have, just many people such as myself feel it's a very poor vision (I am a big fan of the actual gameplay and visuals and music and such, I'm more talking story/message wise).

With the rest of the they've been far less controversial, while there's been people complaining about moveset simplification and such character wise most of the cast isn't too out of character, they've just moved on to a much happier mindset, but unfortunately we've gotten 2 characters in a row who have some very debatable and controversial changes to them and it's kinda put some of us in a sour mood as it feels a bit too close for a pattern to be comfortable.

And obviously I shouldn't have to say this (But you know the internet) but this is absolutely nothing to do with any kind of biases, while there's a disappointing group of people being vocal in a completely unhelpful way for the large majority of us it's just disappointment with some crucial mistakes in direction and execution and etc in a series we're fond of.
Though I will say, I was someone wanting Bridget's return since before Strive was announced as I'm kinda a femboy enthusiast who respects the classics and he helped kickstart the whole popularity, but seeing this mishandling and even moreso all the obnoxious drama has put a damper on my enthusism to say the least, I'm less excited than I expected to be and I have the season pass as less of a priority than I planned, I'll pick it up at some point for sure but between all this drama, getting screwed over with regional pricing originally only for it to be announced they're fixing it but not doing anything to repay the people who bought before the change, and the fact the Season pass has less content (4 characters instead of 5) as well as carved out scummy content (AHEM, even worse palatte treatment than on launch) yet is going for the same price.
Yeah, this Season pass isn't going to be a big priority for a while, I need to save up for all the games coming out in October like Persona ports and Splatoon and Bayonetta 3 and etc.