Why do people say this game is "dumbed down"

[Uncle Jon]

I never played the other guilty games so I was curious since this is my first one? Does the community not like it?

[Constantine]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TE Kuraudo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Constantine:

I don't know if it's better or worse, but the better other players get the less I'll play the game. Mostly because I don't improve much over time at this sort of thing since I'm unnaturally untalented, so there are those like me who quit when the game is nothing but veterans. We can't all be good. I can't even be average.

Nah don't worry. Players like me will always be bottom tier. Sure, we can blame it on "having lives" or "being boomers," but I promise you as long as the scene remains alive you will have low tier players to beat up on (and are striving to get better regardless) and it will be lit. Game is fun even against mid tier players.

Yeah I'd say it's fun up until you're up against people who know what they're doing haha. That moment has already come for SFV, luckily this game is still new.

[[TE] Kuraudo]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Constantine:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TE Kuraudo:

Nah don't worry. Players like me will always be bottom tier. Sure, we can blame it on "having lives" or "being boomers," but I promise you as long as the scene remains alive you will have low tier players to beat up on (and are striving to get better regardless) and it will be lit. Game is fun even against mid tier players.

Yeah I'd say it's fun up until you're up against people who know what they're doing haha. That moment has already come for SFV, luckily this game is still new.

Oh for sure. I get slaughtered in SFV so I know what you mean. I feel like Strive allows me to mine fun from people who are better than me, but probably not top tier players.

[陳大人]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darunia:

I never played the other Guilty games so I was curious since this is my first one? Does the community not like it?

To legitimately answer your questions/concerns, OP:

Guilty Gear franchise as a whole was always extremely fast-paced fighting game with heavy lean towards combos and great emphasize/push on air play because it's jumping system allowed to stay in the air for a lot of time, you generally could move FASTER in the air than on the ground (minus a couple specific characters), and there are some advanced techniques (jump-installing and jump-installing of Hyper Jumps, for one) which allowed you to stay in the air even LONGER and do MORE things than what the game initially implies, so in the end it brought a lot of versatility/diversity and FREEDOM of choice and action, allowing players to always innovate and, in the end, pros doing extremely amazing feats of class and strength.

Pre-AC GGs such as Slash and Reload were literally immediately exposing people in the open for being pros or newbies, as you could absolutely tell right in the very first seconds by looking at how the person plays/handles the character or the game itself, if a person was new to it or bad at it, or if he/she knows their ropes around it. AC was different to that, and Xrd/Rev simplified things a lot more, adding randomness factor to the equation (anyone could push YRC at any time to save themselves or do stuff), which basically diminished the "value" of pro play immensely, because back in the Slash and Reload days doing FRC properly actually required very precise inputting, solid sense of rhythm (most pros didn't even look at the screen when they were doing FRCs, it just became natural to do it on a rhythmical tact), and utilizing RC for extension of combos or cancelling of botched/blocked moves made people actually think A LOT during the game due to sheer will to conserve it for as long as they physically could because RC costs 50% of tension gauge (while FRCs cost 25%, so you could do up to four FRCs in a row, and it's the FRC which leads to the most damaging combos in Slash and Reload, not mere RC). All of this (ALL OF IT) was literally flushed down the drain with Strive. 20+ years of Guilty Gear's existence as a franchise were thrown under the train.

Strive is a very good fighting game in on itself and it's a very good Street Fighter entry, no one argues that, but...it's really just NOT "Guilty Gear" the way it was before. At all. THAT is the sole exact reason why people all around the globe are currently so angry and bitter. ArcSys managed to nearly instantly alienate the absolutely largest (the vocal majority) portion of it's long-time long-term fans, with this. And, at the same time, this doesn't really cater to newbies and casuals as well, because this game is actually unironically a Street Fighter at the end of the day, and SF is a notoriously high-barred title to entry. So, basically, ArcSys managed to make a game...for essentially no one, thus far (at least until the updates/fixes/patches start rolling in, that is). And then there's also an entire separate topic that could be made on it's technical difficulties, be that bugs/glitches, nonsensically garbage and fugly UI/GUI/lobby designs, or it's server-side ineptitude. It's a whole package of a memetic train-wreck, so far.

Purely on a personal level I don't necessarily "hate" or "dislike" Strive...I've simply just already accepted the fact that it's "Street Fighter with Guilty Gear's setting and characters", instead of being an actual core GG, so I've started playing it as a Strive Fighter since the first day right away, instead of "trying to play Guilty Gear any thus have miserable/bad experience with it".

[Constantine]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TE Kuraudo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Constantine:

Yeah I'd say it's fun up until you're up against people who know what they're doing haha. That moment has already come for SFV, luckily this game is still new.

Oh for sure. I get slaughtered in SFV so I know what you mean. I feel like Strive allows me to mine fun from people who are better than me, but probably not top tier players.

Same. I know it will only be temporary since I almost don't improve at all, but it will be fun while it lasts until the tryhards come in to ruin the fun. Not that there's anything wrong with trying hard. I'm trying hard myself, it's just not getting me anywhere lol. We'll just have to keep trying until this game is "dead" too.

[Valy]

boomers never adapt

[[TE] Kuraudo]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ggstrive > education:

boomers never adapt

loooooooool

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Master Chen:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Darunia:

I never played the other Guilty games so I was curious since this is my first one? Does the community not like it?

To legitimately answer your question, OP:
Guilty Gear franchise as a whole was always extremely fast-paced fighting game with heavy lean towards combos and great emphasize/push on air play because it's jumping system allowed to stay in the air for a lot of time, you generally could move FASTER in the air than on the ground (minus a couple specific characters), and there are some advanced techniques (jump-installing and jump-installing of Hyper Jumps, for one) which allowed you to stay in the air even LONGER and do MORE things than what the game initially implies, so in the end it brought a lot of versatility/diversity and FREEDOM of choice and action, allowing players to always innovate and, in the end, pros doing extremely amazing feats of class and strength.

Pre-AC GGs such as Slash and Reload were literally immediately exposing people in the open for being pros or newbies, as you could absolutely tell right in the very first seconds if a person was new to it or bad at it, or if he/she knows their ropes around it. AC was different to that, and Xrd/Rev simplified things a lot more, adding randomness factor to the equation (anyone could push YRC at any time to save themselves or do stuff), which basically diminished the "value" of pro play immensely, because back in the Slash and Reload days doing FRC properly actually required very precise inputting, solid sense of rhythm (most pros didn't even look at the screen when they were doing FRCs, it just because natural doing it on rhythmical tact), and utilizing RC for extension of combos or cancelling of botched/blocked moves made people actually think A LOT during the game due to sheer will to conserve it for as long as they physically could because RC costs 50% of tension gauge (while FRCs cost 25%, so you could do up to four FRCs in a row, and it's the FRC which leads to the most damaging combos in Slash and Reload, not mere RC). All of this (ALL OF IT) was literally flushed down the drain with Strive. 20+ years of Guilty Gear's existence as a franchise were thrown under the moving train. Strive is a very good fighting game in on itself and it's a very good Street Fighter entry, no one argues that, but...it's really just NOT "Guilty Gear" in the way it was before. At all. THAT is the sole exact reason people all around the globe are currently so angry and bitter. ArcSys managed to nearly instantly alienate the absolutely largest (the vocal majority) portion of it's long-time long-term fans, with this. And, at the same time, this doesn't really cater to newbies and casuals as well, because this game is actually unironically a Street Fighter at the end of the day, and Street Fighter is a notoriously high-barred title to entry. So, basically, ArcSys managed to make a game...for essentially no one, thus far (at least until the updates/fixes/patches start rolling in, that is). And then there's also an entire separate topic that could be made on it's technical difficulties, be that bugs/glitches, nonsensically garbage and fugly UI/GUI/lobby designs, or it's server-side ineptitude. It's a whole package of a memetic train-wreck, right now.

Yeah I think that's mostly accurate aside from the bit claiming this title isn't accessible to scrubs and newbs. It doesn't feel like Guilty Gear: it feels closer to SFV for sure. That said, I like it better. sure, I am an SFV player, but even 'simpler' games like BlazBlue were impenetrable to me.

System mastery is one thing, but even things like jump installs and False Roman Cancels ALSO require a high level of execution. For me, execution is the huge wall that I can't cross. For example, I love King of Fighters, but I'll never be able to actually play the real game because the execution to me is a barrier. Same with Guilty Gear and even Xrd even though I tried my best to play Xrd. All of a sudden Strive comes in and makes anime fighters outside of Persona accessible to me: that's a huge win for guys like me.

Guys who prefer real guilty gear: i feel for you. I don't know how we can make the game more accessible and still retain the craziness which made Guilty Gear, well, Guilty Gear. I think going the path of Strive is the future, however. Hell, I think more complex systems with even simpler execution is what we're likely to see going forward.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Master Chen:

And, at the same time, this doesn't really cater to newbies and casuals as well, because this game is actually unironically a Street Fighter at the end of the day, and Street Fighter is a notoriously high-barred title to entry.

...street fighter is a notoriously high barred title to entry? compared to what? hello kitty adventure? Exactly which 2d fighting game franchise requires lower execution? Under Night? KOF? BlazBlue? Hell, SFV is the easiest one they've put out yet and Strive is almost certainly copying that aspect: surely you jest when you say "notoriously high bar?"

[SmellTheJava]

Because it is.

[陳大人]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TE Kuraudo:

Compared to what?

SF can't be "compared" to anything, because it's the vanilla OG. SF is SF. It's the Dragon Ball of fighting game genre. Also, I wasn't specifying particular SF entry, but generalizing. SF is hard.

I don't know how we can make the game more accessible and still retain the craziness which made Guilty Gear, well, Guilty Gear.

It's actually extremely easy to accomplish that nowadays - literally just back-port official proper rollback to Reload and add GGRO-like lobby system at the least (GGRO was an online fan-made mod for PC version of GGR, back in the days...some people still play it via fan servers even today), which AC+R already proven to be possible. AC+R is a very popular and good GG, but...it's just NOT Reload. Reload is where it's actually always was at. Reload is literal "CS 1.6/SCBW/WC III/Quake III/UT '99" of the entire Guilty Gear franchise. It has METICULOUSLY FLAWLESS gameplay loop, PERFECTLY balanced (minus the only literally broken char that is Eddie) roster and match-ups, AMAZINGLY solid UI/GUI design and navigation, and GODLIKE soundtrack which has TWICE the amount of tracks and VO if you go Korean (which is the definitive version nowadays). Slash wasn't better or worse than it, it was merely an alternative take on it, with rehauled combos and match-ups, but it's basically the same game. AC is where things started being changed drastically, so "that GG" officially ended on/with Slash.

To put it more simpler/easier to comprehend/understand the point I'm trying to convey here:
AC+R is KoF XI/XIII-equivalent of Guilty Gear franchise. Reload and Slash are both KoF '98.
And, if that's not clicking, then here's more: AC+R is SF IV, while Reload/Slash are SF III 3S.
Reload and Slash are the very epitome of the phrase "Guilty Gear". It's the very peak/top of anything and everything that ever encompassed the franchise as a whole. Reload and Slash ARE "THE Guilty Gear", the very gist, the very core of it, it's face/body, heart, mind, and soul.

[[TE] Kuraudo]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Master Chen:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TE Kuraudo:

Compared to what?

SF can't be "compared" to anything, because it's the vanilla OG. SF is SF. It's the Dragon Ball of fighting game genre. Also, I wasn't specifying particular SF entry, but generalizing. SF is hard.

ehhhhhhhhhhhh? That doesn't make any sense to me. SFV is the easiest SF yet and way easier than say Xrd, KOF, or <insertDoujinAnimeFighterHere>. To have Strive be more accessible it makes PERFECT sense to dumb it down from previous Guilty Gears so scrubs like me can feel like we're actually playing the game instead of just dreaming about hitting combo X or FADC Y. I cut my teeth on melty blood: the amount of time it took to get even one Ciel combo down to the point where I could pull it off 40% of the time in actual match play was absurd. I don't want to have to deal with that for bnb's ever again. It's why SFV is the way it is and why Strive is the way it is as well. It's also why I never bothered with BlazBlue or KOF.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Master Chen:

I don't know how we can make the game more accessible and still retain the craziness which made Guilty Gear, well, Guilty Gear.

It's actually extremely easy to accomplish that nowadays - literally just back-port official proper rollback to Reload and add GGRO-like lobby system at the least (GGRO was an online fan-made mod for PC version of GGR, back in the days...some people still play it via fan servers even today), which AC+R already proven to be possible. AC+R is a very popular and good GG, but...it's just NOT Reload. Reload is where it's actually always was at. Reload is literal "CS 1.6/SCBW/WC III/Quake III/UT '99" of the entire Guilty Gear franchise. It has METICULOUSLY FLAWLESS gameplay loop, PERFECTLY balanced (minus the only literally broken char that is Eddie) roster and match-ups, AMAZINGLY solid UI/GUI design and navigation, and GODLIKE soundtrack which has TWICE the amount of tracks and VO if you go Korean (which is the definitive version nowadays). Slash wasn't better or worse than it, it was merely an alternative take on it, with rehauled combos and match-ups, but it's basically the same game. AC is where things started being changed drastically, so "that GG" officially ended on/with Slash.

To put it out more simply to comprehend/understand:
AC+R is KoF XIII or GG franchise. Reload and Slash are both KoF '98.

I hear you; I played Reload back in the day but my scene had no idea what we were doing so I have no idea what execution was like. If those entries are as easy to pick up as Strive execution wise then I'm all for it. Complex systems aren't a big deal, it's the execution barrier which has previously kept players away.

[Saum]

I guess I'm one of those eccentric fans who care about the story and characters and world-building more than perfecting my button inputs down to the frame and learning FGC terminology (I understand attack names much better than directional numbers + buttons, for example). I'm also happy being an anti-social hermit all the way over in the land of offline single player modes. If I am online, I'm fine with being completely destroyed, as long as it's done (as Venom would appreciate) with elegance. Hell, I've grinned through rounds where I've only managed 25% damage because my death was so cool.

Having played more than a couple of the previous GG games for many years off and on, I think there are some weird things about this game -- some strange decisions and omissions -- but it's not a bad game at all. I haven't practiced with all 15 characters yet, but I've noticed that I do need to unlearn a few habits and rethink my strategy against certain characters. I've never had a "main" so I'm not esp broken up about the changes to any character. (Well, okay, except for Eddie. He/It's mostly creepy cute, a little bit whyyyyy in the redesign, but sadly doesn't talk during matches anymore.)

Idk or care if my opinion gets torn to shreds here, but I've never been good at long combo chains or aerial juggling, so I'm relieved to see those mechanics get some of that pain and misery back. Sadistic of me? Maybe. I've already admitted to masochism, so... XD The loss of instant kills isn't a big deal to me, either. They're fun to watch... in practice/training modes. I wanted to learn them in Xrd just to see the unique interactions/dialogue (and in older games, to get particular story mode endings).

Anyway. I enjoy this series for many reasons, but one big reason is that the development team is pretty damn cool. They put a lot of thought into more than just the fighting game mechanics. I used to be into Tekken way back when (last played it on PS2), and watching Guilty Gear grow and evolve is partly why I gave up on that series.

[Saum]

Omg what happened to this thread while I was being all thoughtful when I should be asleep

[[TE] Kuraudo]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Saum:

Idk or care if my opinion gets torn to shreds here, but I've never been good at long combo chains or aerial juggling, so I'm relieved to see those mechanics get some of that pain and misery back. Sadistic of me? Maybe. I've already admitted to masochism, so... XD The loss of instant kills isn't a big deal to me, either. They're fun to watch... in practice/training modes. I wanted to learn them in Xrd just to see the unique interactions/dialogue (and in older games, to get particular story mode endings).

The only thing I'll tear you to shreds on is your wrong opinion of not missing instant kills: those are completely metal you heathen.

[陳大人]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TE Kuraudo:

If those entries are as easy to pick up as Strive execution-wise, then--

AYY LMAO, d00d.

I think there's a grave misunderstanding/misconception that's currently going inside of your head about all of this. Let me just put it this way to you: Reload and Slash are EXTREMELY (downright INANELY) EASY fighting games to get into, they have KINDERGARTNER TODDLER-level of entry bar, because they're both SO VERSATILE in their FREEDOM of choice and action, that ANYONE can easily pick them up. It's the "higher/top level" play which requires precise rhythm and fast inputting for constant proper FRC'ing and good (anything above 180 out of 420 is considered "good"/"decent") combo'ing, but the game itself allows to play BOTH very professionally AND very noobishly, and BOTH sides are having fun most of the time, because the game is built in such a way that you ALWAYS could do great things and rack up damage from doing even the simplest things which are also VERY easy on fingers at the same time, due to how fast the game's overall pace is. Basically what I'm saying here is...well...Reload and Slash are very accessible to anyone and everyone, and it only gets "hard" (not really, and it also heavily depends on which character you're trying to main. Eddie is literally broken, BUT he's also a walking/flying Negative Edge-rhythm game at the same time, so it's a literal character for people with no life) if you decide to go to the very edge of it's "higher level play". All of the easy-ass inputs on gatlings (MUCH easier than typical chains in SF) which LITERALLY can be mashed out, all of the move-spamming that's openly allowed and even ENCOURAGED in the game, makes the game super-easy to pick up, even if you've never ever played a fighting game before in your life. In comparison to this, Strive is genuinely and absolutely unironically HARD, because it's NOT that in any way, shape, or form. It's not the "masher-infested spamming-encouraging mindless fun of Reload/Slash" kin, it's a hardcore SF all the way through and through. Reload and Slash are the word "FUN" personified. Strive is currently nothing other than just "WORK" and "SWEAT" being sprayed all over the place.

[Saum]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TE Kuraudo:

The only thing I'll tear you to shreds on is your wrong opinion of not missing instant kills: those are completely metal you heathen.

I accept that hit with a laugh, much like Testament or Raven would, because you're right. They were completely metal. Some were ridiculously fun. Much better than, say, Mortal Kombat's finishing moves. (I say that having not played MK since SNES.)

Side note: Anji has a intro line in Strive that keeps making me think of the announcer saying "FLAWLESS VICTORY." Thanks, Eng translators.

[陳大人]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von PhilGamer112:

Max, who is a fighting game veteran--

This is exactly why we can't have nice things right now, folks.

NEVER forget and NEVER EVER forgive: https://streamable.com/dyftg.