Unbalanced Aspects of "No Rest for the Wicked" A pros thoughts!

[HAEVENSKYE]

Hey fellow gamers, let's be civil and nice ok...

I've been diving into "No Rest for the Wicked" recently, and while there are some aspects of the game that I enjoy, I can't help but notice some significant imbalances that detract from the overall experience. Here's why I believe the game falls short in various areas:

Combat System: The combat system feels unbalanced due to the lack of weapon variety from the beginning. By not allowing players to choose a weapon type early on, the game restricts strategic diversity and forces players into a particular playstyle. This lack of choice can lead to repetitive combat encounters and limits the potential for varied and dynamic gameplay experiences.

Dodge Mechanics: The dodge mechanics in "No Rest for the Wicked" seem arbitrary and unreliable. Inconsistent dodge rates make it difficult for players to effectively evade attacks, resulting in frustration and a sense of unfairness during combat encounters. A balanced dodge system should provide players with a reliable means of avoiding damage while still requiring skillful timing and positioning.

Abilities and Resources: The distribution of abilities and resources in the game feels unbalanced, with certain abilities or resources being disproportionately powerful or scarce compared to others. This imbalance can create situations where certain playstyles or strategies are significantly more effective than others, limiting player choice and hindering overall enjoyment.

Stamina Management: Stamina management is crucial in any game with action-oriented gameplay, but in "No Rest for the Wicked," it feels overly punishing. The limited stamina pool combined with high stamina costs for actions can lead to frustrating gameplay experiences where players feel constantly constrained and unable to fully engage with the game's mechanics.

In conclusion, while "No Rest for the Wicked" has its merits, its imbalance in various aspects such as combat, dodge mechanics, abilities and resources, and stamina management detracts from the overall enjoyment of the game. Addressing these issues could greatly improve the player experience and make for a more satisfying gameplay experience.

What are your thoughts? Have you encountered similar imbalances, or do you have a different perspective on the game?

[Father Goose]

I agree about combat system/choosing your early weapon and playstyle. You start to gain a couple levels before you even know what weapon you want, or what weapons exist, and it feels awkward to put points into stuff when you don't have a starting set to revolve around and could find anything at any moment.

Dodging has felt responsive and pretty reliable for me, from iframes to distance.

Abilities and resources, I agree, but that's also to be expected for a game that seems this early. Likely they wanted to use this EA to inspire people to really break their game, so they could figure out what ends up super-busted and start to dial it in. And the players appear to be more than happy to do so from what I've seen/heard.

Stamina, definitely feels on the too punishing side to me. As far as I've seen, I don't think you can even dodge in, then get a 3 attack combo off without running out of stam and inviting a hit. Enemies already mostly don't seem to stagger against 1H weapons, so it feels like there's a lot of artificial downtime with the game, which imo will weigh on many people quickly.

[Young Clancey]

Originally posted by HAEVENSKYE:

Combat System: The combat system feels unbalanced due to the lack of weapon variety from the beginning. By not allowing players to choose a weapon type early on, the game restricts strategic diversity and forces players into a particular playstyle. This lack of choice can lead to repetitive combat encounters and limits the potential for varied and dynamic gameplay experiences.

My weapon drops in first 30 minutes: longsword, 2h sword, club, pick, single dagger, dual dagger, staff. In no way does the game "not allow weapon choice early on." If they decided to allow a limited weapon selection off the bat (e.g. at character creation) I wouldn't mind and it might meet more player expectations generally, but then again I thoroughly enjoyed punching crabs and suplexing Risens for the few minutes it took to find a weapon I liked. So all in all I don't find this to be a serious complaint.

Dodge Mechanics: The dodge mechanics in "No Rest for the Wicked" seem arbitrary and unreliable. Inconsistent dodge rates make it difficult for players to effectively evade attacks, resulting in frustration and a sense of unfairness during combat encounters. A balanced dodge system should provide players with a reliable means of avoiding damage while still requiring skillful timing and positioning.

I don't know what an "inconsistent dodge rate" means. If you have stamina, and aren't locked into a move your already entered, you dodge at the same "rate" every time. I use dash and dodge all the time to do the things you're saying aren't doable.

Abilities and Resources: The distribution of abilities and resources in the game feels unbalanced, with certain abilities or resources being disproportionately powerful or scarce compared to others. This imbalance can create situations where certain playstyles or strategies are significantly more effective than others, limiting player choice and hindering overall enjoyment.

Examples?

Stamina Management: Stamina management is crucial in any game with action-oriented gameplay, but in "No Rest for the Wicked," it feels overly punishing. The limited stamina pool combined with high stamina costs for actions can lead to frustrating gameplay experiences where players feel constantly constrained and unable to fully engage with the game's mechanics.

They did already nerf stamina costs, if you're unaware. I'm not going to die on a hill of "no more stamina tweaks" but keep in mind there is a stamina stat for us to invest in to increase our action economy and become more powerful and active over time.

[John Hayabusa]

What exactly do you mean by arbitrary and unreliable dodge mechanics?

Also unrelated, can we please drop the "pro's perspective" stuff? Unless you game for a living, you are not any different than anybody else, and it just makes you look like you need to go into a discussion with a inflated ego, when there is no need to, and it creates some unhealthy conditions for any discussion. We are all just gamers, as you said.

[dustin1280]

Not sure why you posted two topics, should probably delete one but

Originally posted by dustin1280:

1. I agree, I do wish there was more variety in starting weapons

2. No, you are just wrong, dodge mechanics are absolutely 100% fine. The one thing I will give you, is parry feels off in this game. I don't even use it for that reason.

3. If you are referring to weapon skills vs their cost? I can see what you are saying here

4. Nope, the stamina system is absolutely fine... Put points into stamina if you have an issue with it.

So i agree with roughly 50% of what you said, and vehemently disagree with the other 50%

[Father Goose]

Originally posted by Young Clancey:

Originally posted by HAEVENSKYE:

Combat System: The combat system feels unbalanced due to the lack of weapon variety from the beginning. By not allowing players to choose a weapon type early on, the game restricts strategic diversity and forces players into a particular playstyle. This lack of choice can lead to repetitive combat encounters and limits the potential for varied and dynamic gameplay experiences.

My weapon drops in first 30 minutes: longsword, 2h sword, club, pick, single dagger, dual dagger, staff. In no way does the game "not allow weapon choice early on." If they decided to allow a limited weapon selection off the bat (e.g. at character creation) I wouldn't mind, but then again I thoroughly enjoyed punching crabs and suplexing Risens for the few minutes it took to find a weapon I liked. So all in all I don't find this to be a serious complaint.

My weapon drops in the first 30 minutes were: 1h dagger, 3x 1h hammer. Since then I've seen multiple 1h swords, multiple 2h daggers, but after 6 hours I've seen 0 2h sword/staff drops. I bought a staff off of the merchant, because I was specifically wanting to see what mage-like gameplay there was.

So, congrats on your RNG I guess, or maybe condolences for my RNG. I still think the early direction for your character shouldn't be up to RNG.

[AlphabetHunter]

1. "Combat System": yes, the drop rate of weapons early on should be higher. As all of the loot in the game is random (with the exception of key items), you can get very different experiences, like me and my friend, where I found only swords and daggers, about 6 in total, and my friend that only found a staff and an axe until the first boss fight. However, after talking to him, I learned that he had ignored about half of the first area in the game before Warrick's fight. A lot of players are probably not getting different weapons for simply not exploring properly. Nonetheless, the drop rates of weapons in the first part of the game should still be higher.

2. What are even balanced dodge mechanics in your opinion? As far as I can tell, dodging is reliable if you're on normal weight. Whenever I got hit, it was genereally my fault. If you're talking about i-frames, even just the normal dodge allows you to move so far away from the enemy, that you should just be dodging away or to the back of the enemy and chaining dodges.

3. Resource distribution is really the biggest problem in the game right now. You get too much of some things (I'm looking at you Artemisia Roots), and not enough of other things (all the special parts you need for crafting blueprint gear). But, the current Early Access, even though it's quite big, it's probably about half of what the full game is probably going to be like, so we are not really at a point where this should actually matter that much.

4. There is a Stamina stat. Put 5 points into it and you'll never have to worry about it if you're not using a heavy two-handed weapon. Weapons in the game are made to rely on at least two stats, a big heavy weapon having to rely on strength and stamina is fair. It's an RPG, your character starts weak, that's the point. Aside from the stat, Ring of Agility is an incredible item, and you can equip 3 of those at the same time. Also, different versions of the same weapon can have different stamina cost on attack, pay attention to that.

From my point of view, as someone with 31h into the game right now, people are missing a key aspect: this game has elements from both souls and ARPGs. You are supposed to farm, explore and take your time with the game, just like in an ARPG. Areas will reset after some time, and new loot and new enemies will creep in (remember Diablo 2 reseting everything if you quit the game?). But the game is also supposed to be hard and punishing. And honestly, right now, I have died 10 times more due to gravity than anything else. The platforming parts on MnK are brutal, but the combat itself is easy once you're past the first area and starts to actually understand the game (with my current build at level 19, I can do about 10 attacks using the shamshir before depleting my stamina, with only 5 points in stamina and a ring of agility, plus some gear with decent enchantments).

[Deven]

I'm not sure this guy has actually played the game. Every aspect of his initial post is wrong.

[Ougtok]

Though i can agree to MOST things that you say in this post I have to throw a reminder out that this is EA, and what is currently in the game is ONLY chapter 1 stuff. This may well be considered still early game in the full version but feels like way later in the EA version.


I agree with the weapon choices, i had no clue what kind of style i wanted to go. i started off with dual daggers and switched over to Int/Faith but felt like i wasted the points in dex.

Dodging - there are a few times where i have hit the button but it didn't respond in time.

Abilities - i can go either way with this one, seeing them earlier would be nice.

Resources - I honestly haven't had any trouble out of resources at all. I usually just play the way I want to whether it is the easy route or not. It's just whatever I fall into or like.

Stamina - I have heard this alot on the forums. I personally have not had a single stamina issue. But, I also started going a dex route so dumped points into stamina while having stam regen gear and a weapon that gives straight "Full stamina on parry" perk. I think you kind of have to dump into stamina stat atleast few points to around 15.

[Young Clancey]

Originally posted by Father Goose:

Originally posted by Young Clancey:

My weapon drops in first 30 minutes: longsword, 2h sword, club, pick, single dagger, dual dagger, staff. In no way does the game "not allow weapon choice early on." If they decided to allow a limited weapon selection off the bat (e.g. at character creation) I wouldn't mind, but then again I thoroughly enjoyed punching crabs and suplexing Risens for the few minutes it took to find a weapon I liked. So all in all I don't find this to be a serious complaint.

My weapon drops in the first 30 minutes were: 1h dagger, 3x 1h hammer. Since then I've seen multiple 1h swords, multiple 2h daggers, but after 6 hours I've seen 0 2h sword/staff drops. I bought a staff off of the merchant, because I was specifically wanting to see what mage-like gameplay there was.

So, congrats on your RNG I guess, or maybe condolences for my RNG. I still think the early direction for your character shouldn't be up to RNG.

Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I have suggested elsewhere a higher equipment drop rate. I want a bit more of a Diablo drop rate in general. In our specific cases maybe I was lucky or you were unlucky or a bit of both. But yeah I wouldn't fuss if they added a weapon selection at creation.

[Father Goose]

I've seen two people now say that putting 5 points into stam means you basically have no stam issues ever again.

My question is: is that good game design? Gate comfy stam behind 5 points that you either know to allocate early, or you suffer because you decided to try to put points in your desired primary stat, or health, first?

If you started the game with as much stam as you have when you're at 15 stam, would it really break the experience, or just smooth out the initial bump while you're trying to figure out how the game works?

[RUSTYWARCOW]

Combat System: The combat system feels unbalanced due to the lack of weapon variety from the beginning. By not allowing players to choose a weapon type early on, the game restricts strategic diversity and forces players into a particular playstyle. This lack of choice can lead to repetitive combat encounters and limits the potential for varied and dynamic gameplay experiences.

> Mostly agree. Allowing players to “pick a class” ala Souls would fix this.

Dodge Mechanics: The dodge mechanics in "No Rest for the Wicked" seem arbitrary and unreliable. Inconsistent dodge rates make it difficult for players to effectively evade attacks, resulting in frustration and a sense of unfairness during combat encounters. A balanced dodge system should provide players with a reliable means of avoiding damage while still requiring skillful timing and positioning.

> Not sure what you mean by this. The dodge tiers are like Dark Souls, that system works fine. It is different if you are not used to Souls. But it’s not inherently broken. I will say the dodge input system has bugs, sometimes dodge doesn’t register. It’s also too hard to see the stamina bar, which if at zero blocks dodge.

Abilities and Resources: The distribution of abilities and resources in the game feels unbalanced, with certain abilities or resources being disproportionately powerful or scarce compared to others. This imbalance can create situations where certain playstyles or strategies are significantly more effective than others, limiting player choice and hindering overall enjoyment.

> True. I think this is the Diablo effect. Wicked should be a Souls game all in.

Stamina Management: Stamina management is crucial in any game with action-oriented gameplay, but in "No Rest for the Wicked," it feels overly punishing. The limited stamina pool combined with high stamina costs for actions can lead to frustrating gameplay experiences where players feel constantly constrained and unable to fully engage with the game's mechanics.

> I haven’t found this. To me it feels balanced to the same degree as a Souls game. And you can add points to increase it. I’m currently level 15 and it feels very fair.

In conclusion, while "No Rest for the Wicked" has its merits, its imbalance in various aspects such as combat, dodge mechanics, abilities and resources, and stamina management detracts from the overall enjoyment of the game. Addressing these issues could greatly improve the player experience and make for a more satisfying gameplay experience.

> The only thing I’ll say to the devs is follow Dark Souls / Elden Ring. The view and art are innovative enough.

[Young Clancey]

I neither agree that stamina is way too punishing early on or that 15 solves everything. Your action economy SHOULD kinda suck at the beginning, and it definitely keeps getting better past 15. I think I'm at 18 or 20 or thereabouts.

[AlphabetHunter]

Originally posted by Father Goose:

I've seen two people now say that putting 5 points into stam means you basically have no stam issues ever again.

My question is: is that good game design? Gate comfy stam behind 5 points that you either know to allocate early, or you suffer because you decided to try to put points in your desired primary stat, or health, first?

If you started the game with as much stam as you have when you're at 15 stam, would it really break the experience, or just smooth out the initial bump while you're trying to figure out how the game works?

5 stat points is less than 2 levels. You'll hit level 3 so fast that it doesn't matter. And yes, it's good game design for an RPG. You start weak, and YOU make your character strong. And you don't actually fully need to do this either, you can choose to play the game investing only on damage, or only on health, or whatever. Every single stat in the game starts weak: you have barely no health, you don't get damage bonus, you can barely use anything. Again: you make your character strong. It's an RPG that is not trying to hold your hand.

[dustin1280]

Originally posted by Father Goose:

I've seen two people now say that putting 5 points into stam means you basically have no stam issues ever again.

My question is: is that good game design? Gate comfy stam behind 5 points that you either know to allocate early, or you suffer because you decided to try to put points in your desired primary stat, or health, first?

If you started the game with as much stam as you have when you're at 15 stam, would it really break the experience, or just smooth out the initial bump while you're trying to figure out how the game works?

First, I am not sure how true this statement is, but assuming it is absolutely true.

Yes it is...
Because you can see your character grow. It takes less then two levels to hit that 15 mark and it absolutely helps you feel your character growing stronger. Same thing with any other stat you choose to put points into.

[Father Goose]

Originally posted by dustin1280:

Originally posted by Father Goose:

I've seen two people now say that putting 5 points into stam means you basically have no stam issues ever again.

My question is: is that good game design? Gate comfy stam behind 5 points that you either know to allocate early, or you suffer because you decided to try to put points in your desired primary stat, or health, first?

If you started the game with as much stam as you have when you're at 15 stam, would it really break the experience, or just smooth out the initial bump while you're trying to figure out how the game works?

First, I am not sure how true this statement is, but assuming it is absolutely true.

Yes it is...
Because you can see your character grow. It takes less then two levels to hit that 15 mark and it absolutely helps you feel your character growing stronger. Same thing with any other stat you choose to put points into.

I've put something like 5 points in Int by level 6 (none in Stam because I'm used to points in Stam being kind of a waste, especially early), and it nets me I think 2 extra damage per Staff melee swing. That's growth-ish, but's nothing like mechanically unlocking combat that feels comfortable instead of stifling.

There has to be a better happy medium. It's akin to a Tower Defense game, where there's a right way to do a level and you spend time trying to figure out what it is. You get to wave 10, oops there's a boss mob, didn't have a big nuking tower? You lose. You get to wave 15, this is the flying wave didn't you know, don't you have anti-air? No? Better luck next time.

If just knowing that you need to put points in stam early is a sort of player-check, that's the dev's decision. I think it's the wrong one, though.