I wish they were trying to compete with POE, D4, or Last Epoch

[COWZA]

Sadly they are in title and names like "end game"

But its clear they are trying to create a game more like Fable.

Deep down I was hoping to add another true ARPG to the mix but I respect the effort and art. Sadly just not in the same Genre with what POE and D4 are doing-wise

Definitely a extreme SOFT version of the genre (not much content or deph)

---
To the ANSWER below:

This is 100000000% it.

Same exact feeling, the guy using all the ARPH terms, but doesnt understand the false advertising shallow aspect to it all.

When the COMBAT is souls-like it is a souls-like game.

MANY MANY ARPG fans are going to be upset when they feel tricked.

[Mike]

Цитата допису Pan Darius Loveless:

I despise D4, PoE and Last Epoch - what Moon Studio is doing is PERFECT.

I don't care for none of those games either but they are not the only notable ARPGs like diablo that are good.

[Gyson]

You're really, REALLY caught up on that one tweet, and yet in the various interviews I've watched and read the developers have spent significantly more time acknowledging possibility that PoE and Diablo fans may not like Wicked. But they believe enough people will for it to be a success.

It would help to keep in mind that whenever they're talking about Diablo they're not just talking about where the Diablo franchise is today, but where it originally started. They don't seem to be very excited by the direction it took since the original game, and frankly they are not the only players of the Diablo franchise who feel that way.

They're competing with other ARPGs such as Diablo and PoE in the sense that they have their own ideas on the direction the genre should be moving. And with as unpopular as the last few Diablo releases have been that seems to be a reasonable position to take. That doesn't mean they will convert 100% of D4 and PoE fans to their way of thinking, and clearly they don't expect to. Both you and they are on the same page about that yet you're weirdly constantly criticizing them for being proud of their product. We get it, it hasn't hooked you, but clearly it is attracting the interest of others.

For someone who hasn't even played Wicked yet you sure seem to have some pretty strong opinions about how many of it systems are failures. It's really weird to listen to you rant about character progression in Wicked when you haven't even had hands-on time with it. Meanwhile, the "RPG aspects" of Diablo 4 did little to impress me, so I would argue the bar to beat isn't even very high.

[Mr. Underhill]

Цитата допису Mike:

Did the devs say they were going to "revolutionize" souls-like or monster hunter-like games? No! The the devs just DIRECTLY challenged the top diablo-like ARPGs and at the same time crapped on many CORE features that ARPG players love about those types of games. If your going to come against POE especially (which I personally don't even like) and then say your game will have less complexity, do you think POE fans will just abandon POE and say Wicked is my new ARPG??? Of Course not, because the devs are not really even making a similar game to those they challenged in fact POE 2 is also take a more slower paced approach to combat so good luck directly competing with that.

You literally keep arguing against ME when I was not the one to compare my game to Diablo and POE and then at the same time say "I coming for Diablo and POE". I'm a diablo-like ARPG fan (or any game that has deep builds, interesting itemization, and replayablility) and I have played most of them. I know I don't speak alone when I say most of the things the devs talked about did not get me excited or even make me think they would come close to the games they directly challenged and I was potentially their target market for the game (diablo-like ARPG enjoyers).

If they are going to come off this strong in one of my favorite genres I need to see proper character progression (you know the RPG aspects of the Action RPG), I need to see how varied the build/combat can get, because this early look just looks like an average souls-like action adventure game (which are all over the place) with very little diablo-like ARPG aspects. I need to see the evolution of an early game build/playstyle to an endgame build/playstyle, because if early game AND endgame ends up being attack, attack, skill, dodge, wait for stamina regen, (rinse and repeat) that will not keep me interested in the game long term as all "classes"/builds would feel too similar (like souls games).

Lastly your completely misunderstanding mine and others point if you think all of this is about is just because "the devs brought up diablo" lol. I will say it again if you are going to challenge the top diablo-like APRGs, you should 100% expect fans of that genre to criticize and comb though your game with a fine tooth comb to see if it really lines up with the high bar that was set and so far (its still early) I was not impressed in the slightest.

If the devs said "we are creating a ARPG with more methodical combat, lite-ARPG aspects with RNG loot, focus on exploration, discovery..etc" I would have been like cool that sound interesting. However they set my (and many ARPG fans) expectations a certain way when they specifically said they were competing with Diablo and POE (those are very specific types of APRGs), and imo the devs made a mistake saying that as the interview seemed to show the devs wanting to change the genre to what they want, more then competing in an already established and well loved genre with their own new/unique ideas.

I don't know where you heard Moon Studios say they were competing directly with ARPG Diablo type clones. I've watched every interview, and have read everything regarding this game. I can't find that anywhere. The media keeps saying Diablo with soulslike combat, but that's really just quick shorthand, an easy way to convey what are some of fundamental aspects of the game. Moon Studios does discuss Diablo, and it's impact on this space, but Diablo 1,2, and 3 seem to be reference points for them. They appear to greatly enjoy that type of game play, but they want to try something different. This feels like your misconception, you took it the wrong way, and your expectations lead to your current frustration.

In Rykker's discussion with Thomas, there is a lot of discussion about what they as developers would like to see in an ARPG. What they want to take from other games within the "larger" ARPG genre, and how they want to put their own twist on it. They appear to be picking different aspects from different games within the ARPG space, and trying to do their own thing. I love Diablo, and it's myriad clones, but they are not the only ARPGs out there. They are a subset within the ARPG space. Soulslike games fall into that space, along with many others as well. Many players overlap, and folks like may different aspects of ARPGs. This game looks like an interesting amalgamation of ideas. It also appears to be a game the developers want to play, that's usually a good sign. It may end up being a clever mashup of ARPG ideas, and a fresh take on the ARPG genre. Time will tell.

[Mike]

Цитата допису Gyson:

You're really, REALLY caught up on that one tweet...

That "one tweet" was what got EVERY single ARPG youtuber/streamer talking the game up and spreading the "hype" for it like wildfire, so yeah I'm going to criticize something that I feel was nothing more then a smart marketing play to draw in a huge audience.

Цитата допису Gyson:

"It would help to keep in mind that whenever they're talking about Diablo they're not just talking about where the Diablo franchise is today, but where it originally started."

Yeah and with Diablo 2 was when the vast amount of ARPG players were fell in love with these types of games as it took everything of the first game and improved on it in some way. It really was D2 that breed the ARPGs we have today like Sacred 1-2, Dungeon Siege 1-2, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn,...etc, it in essence is what got people to love these games. As revolutionary as Diablo 1 was, it was D2 that defined the genre as a whole imo and most ARPG lovers will agree with that. If the Devs were only talking about Diablo 1 thats cool but 99% of ARPG players now a days would not even be able complete that game given how mechanically dated it is (even compared to D2)

Цитата допису Gyson:

"They don't seem to be very excited by the direction it took since the original game, and frankly they are not the only players of the Diablo franchise who feel that way."

Yeah and I agree with them regarding the modern APRGs as they have lost what made the genre interesting/memorable. Modern ARPGs are all to focused on endgame, player retention, modern live service practices,,..etc then keeping what made the classics so great, world design, lore, replayablility, interesting class systems,...etc. However Diablo is NOT the only ARPG franchise devs should take inspiration from (especially not modern diablo), as I keep saying.

Цитата допису Gyson:

" Both you and they are on the same page about that yet you're weirdly constantly criticizing them for being proud of their product. "

Yeah being over confident and prideful does not always lead to good things especially if your targeting an already well defined genre with an OLD audience, as the saying goes "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.". They 100% could get old heads of the genre and new player a like to enjoy their game, but I have a feeling it will appeal MORE to those who never liked the diablo-like APRG genre in the first place, which is why so many coments about the game is like "Finally a ARPG that does not have pointless loot" or " finally a ARPG with meaningful combat",...etc.

Цитата допису Gyson:

"For someone who hasn't even played Wicked yet you sure seem to have some pretty strong opinions about how many of it systems are failures."

Yeah just as the devs are passionate about their game, I am passionate about one of my favorite genres, so naturally I will have "strong opinions" as you call them. Your surprised by this why?

Regarding the gameplay systems you are correct that I have not played tried them, but I have played TONS of Action RPGs with Souls-like combat just like this game that also have very similar "loose class systems", and guess what? They just don't have the same feel of getting powerful throughout your playthrough as traditional ARPGs (one of the KEY aspects people love about them), as most end up feeling the same from the beginning to the end.

The character leveling/build system in this game looks very similar to a Fromsoft game like Elden Ring where each weapon you pick up with have its own moveset and skills (ashes of war), the skills have limited use depending on a certain resource and in a way you can make some fun builds. My issue with this system is that the gameplay loop of these types of games always ends up FEELING the same whether in early game or endgame because the CORE of the system mechanics require the player to player/interact with enemies in a very particular way. That way being, attack, attack, dodge attack, wait for stamina to regen, engage again, maybe throw in a skill or 2, rinse and repeat.

If you look at a Elden Ring build from early game to end game the playstyle will mostly be the same and only the damage output will be different (many hits to kill a boss or less hits), because at the end of the day you are still attacking and dodge rolling through the game and nothing evolves past that. Now compare that to an ARPG like Grim Dawn and you will have VASTLY different approaches to combat, whether that is focused on a single ranged spell to decimate all enemies, melee/tank focused build to face tank through everything, traps builds to have enemies walk into your damaging skills, focusing on damage types (burn, freeze, chain lighting,...etc)...etc (I could go on forever).

When I look at Wicked I don't see that class/playstyle variability I love from many ARPGs because at the end of the day you are going to be managing stamina, and throwing out a skill every now and then if you have a bar to do it. I just don't see that deep ARPG variation that the diablo-like games are known for. I would be curious to know if Wicked's endgame builds will end up more spam heavy then early game because other wise very little will change other then DPS per hit.

Цитата допису Gyson:

"Meanwhile, the "RPG aspects" of Diablo 4 did little to impress me, so I would argue the bar to beat isn't even very high."

This is a pointless statement because even though D4 is the modern ARPG people are talking about many many past ARPGs did class building much better then that game so the bar has been set higher then D$ for a LONG time. Even Sacred 1-2 which imo were better open world ARPGs, had more classes, more skills per class to build around, and overall had more variation to combat then D4 so that is a very weak example to compete with imo.

This is exactly what I mean by ONLY looking at the modern ARPGs and their mistakes and not realizing that other, lesser well known ARPGs already did those things by arguably better.

[Mike]

Цитата допису Mr. Underhill:

I don't know where you heard Moon Studios say they were competing directly with ARPG Diablo type clones. I've watched every interview, and have read everything regarding this game. I can't find that anywhere. The media keeps saying Diablo with soulslike combat, but that's really just quick shorthand, an easy way to convey what are some of fundamental aspects of the game. Moon Studios does discuss Diablo, and it's impact on this space, but Diablo 1,2, and 3 seem to be reference points for them. They appear to greatly enjoy that type of game play, but they want to try something different. This feels like your misconception, you took it the wrong way, and your expectations lead to your current frustration.

In Rykker's discussion with Thomas, there is a lot of discussion about what they as developers would like to see in an ARPG. What they want to take from other games within the "larger" ARPG genre, and how they want to put their own twist on it. They appear to be picking different aspects from different games within the ARPG space, and trying to do their own thing. I love Diablo, and it's myriad clones, but they are not the only ARPGs out there. They are a subset within the ARPG space. Soulslike games fall into that space, along with many others as well. Many players overlap, and folks like may different aspects of ARPGs. This game looks like an interesting amalgamation of ideas. It also appears to be a game the developers want to play, that's usually a good sign. It may end up being a clever mashup of ARPG ideas, and a fresh take on the ARPG genre. Time will tell.

I'm not posting it again but I post the evidence way earlier in the thread where one of the lead devs tweets out saying they are "coming for diablo and POE" Their words not mine.

I agree with your last bit as this game could very easily carve out its own spot in the genre with its combination of other genres, I also may end up loving the game (a very good chance), but imo it will in no way compete with diablo-like ARPGs as the devs claim. It will be its own thing and maybe good at it but I just don't see my self getting that diablo-like ARPG itch scratched from this game.

[Casul Gamer]

Цитата допису Casul Gamer:

Then with Elden Ring, most people overlooked a lot of its flaws even though they were the same issues people complained about with Dark Souls 2 (artificial/unfair difficulty, recycling content, a lot of humanoid bosses).

Yeah...I wasn't comparing Elden Ring to D4. Just quoting my OP as it speaks for itself.

Even a lot of reviewers who gave Elden Ring a 9 or 9.5/10 talked about these problems. And yet it was praised by soulsheads while Dark souls 2 remains the black sheep that is still talked about with scorn even 10 years later.

[Mr. Underhill]

Цитата допису Mike:

I'm not posting it again but I post the evidence way earlier in the thread where one of the lead devs tweets out saying they are "coming for diablo and POE" Their words not mine.

I agree with your last bit as this game could very easily carve out its own spot in the genre with its combination of other genres, I also may end up loving the game (a very good chance), but imo it will in no way compete with diablo-like ARPGs as the devs claim. It will be its own thing and maybe good at it but I just don't see my self getting that diablo-like ARPG itch scratched from this game.

Sorry I don't read twitter, it's a retched hive of scum and villainy. I did find Thomas's tweet, and I can see were you are coming from.

Цитата допису Thomas Mahler:

Our next project is going to be a make-or-break moment for Moon:

Either we manage to revolutionize the ARPG genre or we'll slowly fade away into the distance.

While that should be scary, I LOVE the challenge! Diablo, PoE, etc.: We're coming for you, may the best one win!

The post reads comically to me, perhaps a bit flippant. I get the sense that Thomas was joking, going after Diablo, and POE, etc., was just a friendly taunt. I certainly didn't take it as serious, more a lighthearted jab, at the big boys. I guess we see what we want to see. Well, good luck, and I hope you end up enjoying the game. Cheers!

[Mike]

Цитата допису Mr. Underhill:

Цитата допису Mike:

I'm not posting it again but I post the evidence way earlier in the thread where one of the lead devs tweets out saying they are "coming for diablo and POE" Their words not mine.

I agree with your last bit as this game could very easily carve out its own spot in the genre with its combination of other genres, I also may end up loving the game (a very good chance), but imo it will in no way compete with diablo-like ARPGs as the devs claim. It will be its own thing and maybe good at it but I just don't see my self getting that diablo-like ARPG itch scratched from this game.

Sorry I don't read twitter, it's a retched hive of scum and villainy. I did find Thomas's tweet, and I can see were you are coming from.

Цитата допису Thomas Mahler:

Our next project is going to be a make-or-break moment for Moon:

Either we manage to revolutionize the ARPG genre or we'll slowly fade away into the distance.

While that should be scary, I LOVE the challenge! Diablo, PoE, etc.: We're coming for you, may the best one win!

The post reads comically to me, perhaps a bit flippant. I get the sense that Thomas was joking, going after Diablo, and POE, etc., was just a friendly taunt. I certainly didn't take it as serious, more a lighthearted jab, at the big boys. I guess we see what we want to see. Well, good luck, and I hope you end up enjoying the game. Cheers!

At least you understand my point, and yeah I don't even have a twitter account I saw that tweet in a youtube video lol.

You may be correct that the person was jesting knowing it would get peoples attention, but I don't know the person so I have no reason to take it any other way then what their words say.

I also believe I will enjoy the game, my issue has never been the quality of the game, just that it will not itch that diablo-like ARPG feel they claim they are "coming for". I've enjoyed plenty of excellent Souls-like ARPGs (this will probably be no different), but I play those types of games for t different reasons then I do diablo-like ARPGs where I can turn my brain off for a bit and mow down hundreds of enemies with my min-maxed builds lol.

Imo the only modern game that took the best parts of a diablo game and combined it with deep, interesting combat systems without making the gameplay loop get stale was the Team Ninja games (specifically Nioh 2), and even those games provided a power fantasy for the player at endgame due to the crazy amount of build you can create in that game.

Thanks for seeing, my point of view even if you don't agree

[Gyson]

Цитата допису Mike:

That "one tweet" was what got EVERY single ARPG youtuber/streamer talking the game up and spreading the "hype" for it like wildfire, so yeah I'm going to criticize something that I feel was nothing more then a smart marketing play to draw in a huge audience.

The first place I heard about Wicked was from the 2023 Game Awards. I don't even use Twitter.

Regardless, I don't see a problem with the tweet because they're simply saying a lot is riding on this game for them and then include a (a probably playful given the author's personality) challenge to "Diablo, PoE, etc.".

I don't have a time machine handy to confirm whether this was genius insight or hot air, but given how poorly D4 and Blizzard's reputation is currently doing, I would say Moon Studios has a reasonable shot of ending up with a better reception and scoring the win they're looking for.

Maybe we should just hold off on getting all twisted about it until we see what happens.

[Mike]

Цитата допису Gyson:

Цитата допису Mike:

That "one tweet" was what got EVERY single ARPG youtuber/streamer talking the game up and spreading the "hype" for it like wildfire, so yeah I'm going to criticize something that I feel was nothing more then a smart marketing play to draw in a huge audience.

The first place I heard about Wicked was from the 2023 Game Awards. I don't even use Twitter.

Thats fine but many ARPGs player like watching youtubers and streamers enjoy they same games they do, and when ever ALL of them is talking about this game, obviously I'm going to take notice.

Also please understand that i did not find out about the game through a Tweet lol (never had a twitter account in my life and don't intend on changing that), the tweet was shown in a youtube video, talking about the game and that is where I learn about it. Also it more then a single tweet and I have pages and pages to explain that, so you don't have to agree.

[Cryonor]

Цитата допису Mike:

Цитата допису Doko:

This is why I feel like the devs should have been upfront with who they are aiming the game at as their audience, instead of just "the iso ARPG genre that likes Diablo", which is too broad and isn't really their main target due to how it plays.

There will definitely be those hopping in expecting something similar to other ARPG's and being disappointed, and those that won't, but still they should make that more clearer to who they want.

Also I forgot we also have CRPG's, that deal with turn based and real time with pause, and both can be played as slow as one wants.

This and its even worse when the lead dev is acting like this game could potentially "evolve" or "revolutionize" the ARPG genre just because combat is more methodical. I also did not like how many times in the interview the lead dev almost talks down on the aspects of classic ARPGs and for the most part really did not seem to understan the genre given they only talked about the most mainstream ones (Diablo and POE).

Have they ever thought that ARPG players like ARPGs because of the fast paced nature, mindless combat, big numbers, loot drop dopamine hunt, complex character build systems....etc? If you remove 99% of those aspects and act like they are a regression of the genre, do you really think the ARPG community will welcome you with open arms and crown your game the new king of ARPGs? I don't think that's how it works.

Lmao what a crybaby

[Cryonor]

Цитата допису Casul Gamer:

Цитата допису Mike:

"There are also not a lot of new ARPGs that get positive reviews."

To be fair there is not much of ANY modern releases that get positive reviews anymore lol, because gamers seem to be very picky lately with the games they lap up without question and the ones that beat into the dirt nonstop with this negative hivemind of if the influences say its bad then its bad even if I don't play it. I say in 2024 players need to stop listening to reviews and learn to develop their own likes/wants so they know if a game is for you and if it is not. I have had 20+ years to know what is for me and what isn't so reviews have very little effect on me thankfully.

Yeah. It's weird how some games get a pass and other games get dog-piled. When Diablo 4 first came out, most people were relatively positive and then all of a sudden it was like someone flipped a switch and everyone hated it.

I'm not saying D4 is great or even good, but it's not nearly as bad as people say it is. I'd give it 7.5 out of 10. Maybe an 8 if it was another developer.

Then with Elden Ring, most people overlooked a lot of its flaws even though they were the same issues people complained about with Dark Souls 2 (artificial/unfair difficulty, recycling content, a lot of humanoid bosses).

It's almost like, despite its minor flaws, Elden Ring is a much better game