Russian propaganda.

[darwinwasright]

I was about to buy the game, but unfortunatelly I am from Ukraine and this game spreads TerroRussian propaganda.

I saw a Ruthenia coat of arms in the trailer. Or something similar to it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia)
And I was really happy, however I haven't found any Ruthenian fraction in the game googling it.
But I have found that the game uses a flag of Grand Duchy of Moscowy for Russia and the fraction is nammed Russians there. really?

Also that flag is not even a flag. There is no proof of it. Grand Dukes of Moscow did use red flags with the Image of Christ the Savior image, that was highly revered by the Russian Orthodox Church – cf. the 12th century Novgorod icon below. However, the exact design or color patterns were never recorded.

1. Devs, can u please tell what that Ruthenian flag in the trailer represent?
2. Why does Moscovians named Russians?

[Cabbage]

The tabletop uses Rus for 9th century to the 11th, and Russian for 11th to 16th. I think that accurately reflects the use of the two words in western sources more accurately.

But ultimately it doesn't really matter, this is a videogame not a history study.

[Asterius]

Цитата допису Changeling_Wil:

Цитата допису dynamic_dynamite:

It just sounds strange that in the game other factions are called "German", "French", "Bohemians". Then "Rus"? Rus looks as a counterpart of "Germany", "France", etc. Is "Rus" really used as nationality in English? My question is just language-wise, not political-wise.

Russian is the term for the modern russian people (not including other ethnic groups in the area).

Rus is the term for the medieval slavic people in the region. Some of these would later become Russians. Some of them would later become Ukranians etc

For the modern context you can call people living in what is now Russia, Russia.

For the medieval context you call them Rus.

This game is set in the middle ages, thus it is best to use the term Rus to avoid issues.

OK. However, I should be more specific that what the Britains mean "Russian" in their 16th to 19th century when they are talking about the Eastern European medieval history, not what modern speakers think what "Russian" means. Do they separate "Rus" and "Russian" or just regard that "Russian" is the derivative word of Rus to state its people.

[Hazel Horse]

Цитата допису dynamic_dynamite:

Цитата допису Changeling_Wil:

Russian is the term for the modern russian people (not including other ethnic groups in the area).

Rus is the term for the medieval slavic people in the region. Some of these would later become Russians. Some of them would later become Ukranians etc

For the modern context you can call people living in what is now Russia, Russia.

For the medieval context you call them Rus.

This game is set in the middle ages, thus it is best to use the term Rus to avoid issues.

OK. However, I should be more specific that what the Britains mean "Russian" in their 16th to 19th century when they are talking about the Eastern European medieval history, not what modern speakers think what "Russian" means. Do they separate "Rus" and "Russian" or just regard that "Russian" is the derivative word of Rus to state its people.

> heir 16th to 19th century when they are talking about the Eastern European medieval history

Rus is the standard academic and professional term for describing the slavic medieval peoples of Ukraine, Russia, Belorus etc. This term is used in the modern day. Unsure why you think it is a 16th century development.


To the average lay person who has no academic education, they would have no idea what 'rus' is and only know Russians, for those from the Russian federation.

[OmegaOm]

Its a game man. All humans are scum every race is scum, every country is scum, we pillage destroy conquer given the chance. The strong always picks on the week. Humans are selfish greedy bastards throughout all History. I understand you hate Russia, and want to play Ukraine. Sorry man, maybe Devs let you rename country personally in your own game make you happy. OR Just play Poland and kick Russia's ass then.

[darwinwasright]

Цитата допису OmegaOm:

Its a game man. All humans are scum every race is scum, every country is scum, we pillage destroy conquer given the chance. The strong always picks on the week. Humans are selfish greedy bastards throughout all History. I understand you hate Russia, and want to play Ukraine. Sorry man, maybe Devs let you rename country personally in your own game make you happy. OR Just play Poland and kick Russia's ass then.

That's not the point at all. I'll buy this game later, after they rename it. Alredy added it to my Wishlist.
The point is Modern Russia ≠ Rus. Modern Russia is Grand Duchy of Muscovy. I din't say its bad, or worse. Its just what it is.
Rus was a fedation of different tribes with one rulin (scandinavian) dynasty modern Russia claims Russians for some reason. The same way they claimed doubleheaded Bizantium eagle to be their CoA.
Thats how an empire works like. U claim everything u can touch.

The problem is After Rus Federation felt due to Mongol Invasion, it didn't disappear. Western most pricipality of Galicia-Volynia become a Kingdom of Rus. Thats why u can see Russia in the Western Ukraine on that time maps, until 17th c.

However Modern Russia have nothing to do with Kyiv, Kingdom of Rus and Medieval Russia.

[Asterius]

Цитата допису Changeling_Wil:

Цитата допису dynamic_dynamite:

OK. However, I should be more specific that what the Britains mean "Russian" in their 16th to 19th century when they are talking about the Eastern European medieval history, not what modern speakers think what "Russian" means. Do they separate "Rus" and "Russian" or just regard that "Russian" is the derivative word of Rus to state its people.

> heir 16th to 19th century when they are talking about the Eastern European medieval history

Rus is the standard academic and professional term for describing the slavic medieval peoples of Ukraine, Russia, Belorus etc. This term is used in the modern day. Unsure why you think it is a 16th century development.


To the average lay person who has no academic education, they would have no idea what 'rus' is and only know Russians, for those from the Russian federation.

I do think that that the word "Russian" only means "Russia Federation citizen" is a modern development. That's why I ask what the Britains in 16th - 19th think what Russian means.

[joch]

This is one of those cases where there is not really a right or wrong answer.

"Rus" seems to be derived from the name of the original Norse settlers who founded many settlements in Russia, so the name is appropriate for FoG 2 Ancient.

However, by around 1000, the original "Rus" were being assimilated into the local population so the meaning gradually changed to encompass the Rus people. Kiev was the political and cultural center of the old Rus people, until the Mongol conquest in 1250-1300.

After that, the political and cultural center gradually moved to Moscow which was far enough north to be semi-autonomous from the Mongols and their successors. The Grand Dukes of Muscovy gradually expanded their territory, claimed leadership of the Rus people and eventually founded the Tsardom of Russia in the 16th century.

So the real dividing date is the Mongol conquest which led to the downfall of the Kievan Rus and the rise of Moscow.

So the most logical solution would be to name the Russian forces pre-1270-1300 as "Rus" and in future DLCs, name the Russian forces post-1300 as "Russian".

Incidentally, the name Russia has been around a long time. In the "Tabula Rogeriana" which was written by the Arab geographer Muhammad al-Idrisi in 1154, the area around Kiev is named "Rusia".

[Nats]

I still have no idea what the difference between Rus and Russia is. I guess its just one of those things that means a lot to some people and nothing to most other people. I didn't even know Russia was a federation. But then this kind of political nomenclature is something I just do not find interesting at all, like most people. I just can't believe this discussion is still going on lol.

[Cabbage]

The word comes from Latin and Greek that use the suffix 'ia' for abstract nouns. So any country that used Latin or Greek, or any country in contact with them, is likely to use some form of Russia. So in the western world you can often see it referred to that way, but not exclusively.

[Torch of Liberty]

Wait.... how would you then call someone from the Rus regions? Would it still be Anna the Rus?

[darwinwasright]

Цитата допису joch:

This is one of those cases where there is not really a right or wrong answer.

"Rus" seems to be derived from the name of the original Norse settlers who founded many settlements in Russia, so the name is appropriate for FoG 2 Ancient.

However, by around 1000, the original "Rus" were being assimilated into the local population so the meaning gradually changed to encompass the Rus people. Kiev was the political and cultural center of the old Rus people, until the Mongol conquest in 1250-1300.

After that, the political and cultural center gradually moved to Moscow which was far enough north to be semi-autonomous from the Mongols and their successors. The Grand Dukes of Muscovy gradually expanded their territory, claimed leadership of the Rus people and eventually founded the Tsardom of Russia in the 16th century.

So the real dividing date is the Mongol conquest which led to the downfall of the Kievan Rus and the rise of Moscow.

So the most logical solution would be to name the Russian forces pre-1270-1300 as "Rus" and in future DLCs, name the Russian forces post-1300 as "Russian".

Incidentally, the name Russia has been around a long time. In the "Tabula Rogeriana" which was written by the Arab geographer Muhammad al-Idrisi in 1154, the area around Kiev is named "Rusia".

Funny to read, scary to undersatnd someone believes in this.
Yes, after mongols Kyiv was no longer a center, but Halych and Lviv capital of Kingdom of Rus. Later Lithuanians and Polish kings had the title of King of the Rus. And later even Aurtsian Habsbur.

However, Rus was no longer a thing, but still its important for Moscovian national myth to claim the name.

But in fact its a stolen name. Why can't u see this? This the same way stolen as its CoA, which is Bizantium one.

And your time dividing. jeez. Mongols where no a stop point for Rus, but for Kyiv. Yes. Kyiv was not a center any more, thats why many pricipalities started to go its own way:
Novgorod Republic (Wich had its own slavic nother slavic blach), Grand Duchy of Moskow (actually a puppet of Golden Horde), Kingdom of Rus (Puppet as well, but tried to fought against mongols).

Its really complicated, and Russian propaganda machine does work a lot.

[darwinwasright]

Цей коментар ще не було перевірено нашою системою автоматичної перевірки вмісту. Його буде тимчасово приховано, доки ми не переконаємося, що він не містить шкідливого вмісту (наприклад, посилань на сайти, що викрадають інформацію).

[darwinwasright]

Цитата допису Nats:

I still have no idea what the difference between Rus and Russia is. I guess its just one of those things that means a lot to some people and nothing to most other people. I didn't even know Russia was a federation. But then this kind of political nomenclature is something I just do not find interesting at all, like most people. I just can't believe this discussion is still going on lol.

Rus (Kyivan Rus') -- Fedration of Medieval States, mostly slavic (882–1240)
Kingdom of Rus (Also Russia, Ruthenia) -- Medieval state in modern Western Ukraine (1253–1349)
Tsardom of Russia -- Modern Russian State. Descendant of Grand Duchy of Muscovy. 1547–1721
Ruthenia -- Ukraine and sometimes even Belarus in general. (Ruthenians is the old name of Ukrainians)

[joch]

Цитата допису Vjačeslav Čornovil:

Funny to read, scary to undersatnd someone believes in this.
Yes, after mongols Kyiv was no longer a center, but Halych and Lviv capital of Kingdom of Rus. Later Lithuanians and Polish kings had the title of King of the Rus. And later even Aurtsian Habsbur.

However, Rus was no longer a thing, but still its important for Moscovian national myth to claim the name.

But in fact its a stolen name. Why can't u see this? This the same way stolen as its CoA, which is Bizantium one.

And your time dividing. jeez. Mongols where no a stop point for Rus, but for Kyiv. Yes. Kyiv was not a center any more, thats why many pricipalities started to go its own way:
Novgorod Republic (Wich had its own slavic nother slavic blach), Grand Duchy of Moskow (actually a puppet of Golden Horde), Kingdom of Rus (Puppet as well, but tried to fought against mongols).

Its really complicated, and Russian propaganda machine does work a lot.

well no, now you are just re-inventing history to suit your own petty political purposes which quite frankly has no place in this game.

What we in the West view as "Russia" is what started as the Grand Duchy of Moscovy and which eventually became the Russian Empire. In game it makes sense to refer to those as Russian forces.

[darwinwasright]

Цитата допису joch:

What we in the West view as "Russia" is what started as the Grand Duchy of Moscovy and which eventually became the Russian Empire.

Yes, u are right here. U just forget Grand Duchy of Muscovy was founded 7 years before the the game period eneded. And U forget Moscovy stoles the name 3 ages later. As its CoA.
Also u forget Kingdom of Rus existed.

I am not reinventing. I just have realised USSR is no longer exist. Deal with it, please, or ignore.
What facts I say are wrong? And its really funny how u say we, The West.